A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[Johnseye]

10 hours ago, Always.Learning said:

Last and not least, I try to remember that it's about the music. In the right context, I can get goosebumps listening to my crappy car radio. You don't need megabucks to get goosebumps, you just need to be mindful and open to experience. 

 

Agree with your post on all points.

 

10 hours ago, mozes said:

100% spot on. I always find myself getting lost in tunning my system and listening to the components rather than the music. Lately, I noticed that I am enjoying the same tracks in my car more than I do at home. The reason is that I am not thinking of how this or that component sounds or what that last tweak did to my system.

 

 

This is an interesting phenomenon.  There is no doubt that when I start getting analytical, listening for specific differences between gear, being hyper focused on specifics, I miss a big piece of what I need to be listening for when doing a comparison.  I've found that if I randomly cycle through a large playlist on shuffle listening to a couple minutes of a song then forward through, that I don't get sucked in and can get that 5000 foot perspective.  I will still listen using the usual songs I know well and with what to look for, but the more relaxed listening approach is another helpful technique that's helped me.

[Johnseye]

43 minutes ago, Always.Learning said:

Such a bummer; first, you wait a long time to get the Hynes, then you wait another year? On the other hand, you will be in Costa Rica, which certainly has its benefits. 

 

As someone else who is waiting on a Hynes PSU, I'm curious:  When did you order and pay for your SR7?

 

4 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Oh well, that's the way the ball bounces.  Paul did try to get it to me in time but unfortunately we hit a snafu in shipping, lost paperwork.  I ordered/payed on May 18th.  Paul had completed the SR7 back in late August. 

I see you had ordered one in March, must have got lost on Paul's cue or that he didn't have the parts for the SR5.  If it wasn't for Roy's great success with Paul I may have questioned the transaction.  But given the reputed quality of his builds, I was willing to forgo the expected customer service we Americans have come to expect.   This is definitely not for everyone. 

I am sure Paul will get your unit to you.

 

You're on his good list.  Myself and others placed orders before you.  I ordered an SR7 and got nothing but excuses of which I now question the validity.  He received my funds on April 21st.  I did make a change on June 21st but he hadn't started production yet so not sure of the impact if any.  Mine is scheduled for shipment as I finally got a tracking number.  Some have patience of a saint.  This has certainly challenged mine.  I just hope it is all worth it.  I'll be sure to share pictures and experiences once it arrives.

[Johnseye]

2 hours ago, paulhynes said:

Hey Guys,

 

Give me a break. You requested a custom build service to provide a bespoke product that is not generally available off the shelf and certainly, according to all reports, not available elsewhere at this high level of performance. Custom build is completely different form ordering an off the shelf item which can be shipped out as soon as the packing and paperwork is completed.

 

Firstly my products are very popular (I guess this is my fault for designing products people like) and this also guarantees there will be a queue often with long lead times. Secondly, my ordering terms do state that lead times are estimates and unforeseen circumstances can affect lead times. How many unforeseen circumstances occur in any given time frame is unpredictable and they do happen, hence the inclusion in my ordering terms. I mean you no disrespect but I have to say that if you are not able to accept such terms of ordering, please do not order products from me. In future buy something off the shelf and accept the resulting performance level you will get from such sources.

 

ElviaCaprice, you forgot to mention that when ordering you did not inform me you would be leaving for Costa Rica by a certain time and in fact it was in August when you let me know. Disregarding that lead times had drifted this was very short notice and, at the time you notified me, it would have been impossible to get the power supply ready in time for shipment to your leaving date, as others were before you in the queue. It was fortunate that one of my other customers who was not in a hurry agreed to swap lead times with you which allowed me to finish your power supply early enough in theory to ship for delivery before you left for Costa Rica. But guess what, another unforeseen circumstance arose to delay the shipment when the parcel carrier managed to loose the shipment documentation. Sorry the parcel did not arrive in time, but due to the special circumstances involved, I did make a sincere effort to try to ensure it did.

 

John Zei, I guess you are one of the lucky ones and your life runs smoothly. I made no excuses but just explained why delays were occurring. Granted my remote location does cause complications. Trips to the mainland to deal with family medical issues are at least a three-day round trip for just one appointment. If there is more than one appointment for several screening tests and this can extend trips by several days. This year both my wife and daughter have had cancer screening tests on the mainland, and I have also had a variety of health tests to ensure I am healthy enough to continue with my planned business expansion. Regarding incoming materials and outgoing products, delivery times in both directions are often extended due to the complicated transit path shipments take just to get to and from the mainland which can easily be disrupted by bad weather events that prevent ferries from sailing. As there are no electronics or machinery suppliers on the islands these have to be ordered in from the mainland or in the case of the bar cutting band saw, to replace my damaged saw, from Germany. It was unfortunate that the one I ordered was too small to allow machining of the mains transformer reinforcement plates by literally 2mm and I ended up ordering the plates from the mainland with another delay due to the suppliers lead time, which was extended due to their holidays. I tend to design with discrete electronic components because it allows me to control circuit parameters that are important for high performance. Designing with integrated circuits can be rather limiting without access to adjust the actual chip circuitry. Unfortunately, component manufacturers are dropping discrete component inventory in favour of mass market integrated circuit solutions with their attendant limitations, so I have had spend considerably more time this year sourcing components than in past years. Lead times for chassis and mains transformers have also been extended through summer. The cumulative effect of all these sourcing issues can create alterations in the customer queue depending on what has to be sourced. Your request to convert rail 1 to DR operation has also delayed lead times by the time required to build and test the additional regulator module as well as installing it in the power supply. Also spending several hours composing this post has extended lead times. People also have holidays and I am no exception. All these events all add up to extended lead times with my products.

 

It would appear that custom build is in disfavour due to the long lead times. Perhaps it is time for me to follow the path of other manufacturers and just have a few fixed products available off the shelf. No customisation, no alternative options on chassis, no adaptation for alternative applications future proofing the products, no hassle from people when things do not go according to plan. Now there is a plan.

 

Regards

Paul

 

Thanks for the lengthy response Paul.  Hopefully those waiting in line behind me don't stone me for delaying their orders.  I've emailed you personally as well.  I completely understand your need to defend yourself, and you should, but you also might want to apologize to your customers.  Regardless of situation or delay the core of the issue comes down to communication.  Take it for what it's worth, but if you provide your customers with status updates, or respond to their emailed communications in a timely manner, you'll eliminate 99% of what you've read in the CA forum or any other forum where you may see similar commentary from your customers.  Another guy in this forum said you had his money but hadn't responded to his emails since March.

 

At this point I personally don't know you.  I have compassion for your personal situations and how that impacts your business.  But I paid, up front, a couple thousand dollars and at times wondered if I'd ever hear from you again.  Believe it or not, giving someone I don't know a couple thousand dollars up front isn't something I typically do.  Your 2 months became 5.  Had you told me it would take 5 months my decision to purchase might have been different.  I gave you the option a couple times to just cancel which you declined, but now I'm grateful you're fulfilling the order.

 

Everything I said was true, laid to bear out on the table for good or bad.  I hope your PSU will be the best thing since sliced bread.  Then I can come in here and jump up and down about how it's improved my audio experience for the better, and believe me I'll do just that.  With pictures.  I could even make a video of it.  But if my experience is not all that, should I keep it to myself and let others go through the same?  Should a product reviewer, whether that be an audiophile or a common Amazon review only talk about the positives?

 

[Johnseye]

4 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Hey folks, 

 

By the (absolutely zero) authority vested in me by virtue of my OP status  I am going to propose something, with all due respect.

 

Can we conclude this discussion about timelines and delays on PH PSUs? I feel like both sides have aired their views quite coherently.

 

At this point, everyone can make their own choices. Beyond this, I feel any further discussion needs to be either via email/PM, or in another thread.

 

Agreed, and my apologies to you and others subjected to the dirty laundry.

[Johnseye]

10 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

How about we change the title to "A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming"? Are people OK with that?

 

I like it.

[Johnseye]

5 hours ago, limniscate said:

@austinpop and I just finished a short session with his SOtM + iSO Regen stack.  The Cybershaft has a pretty substantial effect.  He first put his SOtM trifecta + iSO Regen into my system, but I didn't know that the Cybershaft wasn't in the chain.  We both thought it sounded good.  Then he made a change but didn't tell me what he changed.  I immediately noticed the improvement and will almost certainly buy a reference clock.  We also volume-matched the system with and without the Cybershaft.  

 

The image seemed bigger, more 3D, more natural, lower noise-floor.  I'd say it was on the magnitude of improvement of the switch mod and/or the sMS-200 Ultra.  It probably is close to the improvement from upgrading my Audio Research Ref5SE to the Ref6.

 

I'm going to RMAF and am eager to see SOtM's reference clock.

 

I just bought an LS28 and I've heard it's very similar to the Ref6. This was a huge improvement over using my DAC pre. How would you classify the step up from 5SE to 6? Have you ever gone back and put a different pre from an ARC in line to gauge the impact? 

 

Looking forward to the SOtM master clock. Let us know what you learn. 

[Johnseye]

7 hours ago, limniscate said:

 

Yes, I have.  In fact, I still have both the Ref5SE and the Ref6.  I've A/B'ed with several people and all think that the Ref6 is a big step up.  I was actually surprised at just how much better it is.  It's even more telling that I could only volume-match the Ref6 to .5db of the Ref5SE, and in every test I had the Ref6 quieter.  Yet everyone still picked the Ref6.

 

I have a friend in Houston who has the LS28 and have been wanting to bring my Ref5SE down to compare to the LS28.  I'll let you know if we ever A/B them.

 

Thanks, let me know when you get a chance to compare the LS28.

[Johnseye]

4 hours ago, romaz said:

 

When putting together an audio system, people will have their priorities.  I have already stated mine and they are simply (1) resolution and (2) transparency.  My reference isn't vinyl or tape or the million dollar setups one can hear at RMAF, Axpona or Munich, my reference is the live music I am often exposed to.  Most of what I listen to is unamplified acoustical music, whether it be large orchestral, small ensemble, choral music, or solo instrumental (especially organ but also piano and guitar).

 

I understand the focus on resolution and transparency as I've been down the same path.  I suspect your objective has been to eliminate all sources of color which could be introduced by components.  That is to say, not in the recording itself.  Whether that be through noise of any kind, tubes, cable characteristics, etc you're looking for the most neutral sound possible from your auditioned components.  You're also focusing on acoustic music.  Does that mean you're not using any electric instrument recordings in your tests, and that your test recording tracks are a sampling of acoustic music?  Those who listen to vinyl or electric amplified music, or those who target characteristics like musicality or PRAT may be after different results.  That's not to say you aren't after those as well, just that they aren't as high on your list as resolution and transparency.

 

4 hours ago, romaz said:

  For those who use an outboard amplifier with their headphones or speakers (this means most everybody who do not own a Chord DAC), you're basically listening to the much more limited dynamic range of your amplifier which is typically between 16-18-bits.  

 

Are you saying all Chord DACs are unique in this regard because as far as you know no other can drive speakers without an amp?  The amp I use (Benchmark AHB2) is rated at 135db.  Given the DAVE is rated at 127.5db why would I be limiting the dynamic range by using this amplifier?

 

4 hours ago, romaz said:

It was the forgone conclusion of most people in the room that the sound through the attached Harbeth speakers would be vastly better with the Master preamp in the chain.  They were surprised when this was not the case.

 

Here is another example of a dealer's DAVE driving an $11k Constellation Inspiration Stereo Amplifier both with and without Constellation's $9k preamp.  To both the dealer's and my ears, SQ was better without the preamp and so when this dealer sells a DAVE, he no longer tries to promote the sale of a preamp:

 

When you say SQ was better, by what characteristics are you defining SQ?  Transparency and resolution only?  After eliminating as much noise as possible you're left with coloration, soundstage, dimensionality or depth and other characteristics a component can add/change to the sound.  Did the DAVE best the Constellation and VAC in all characteristics?

 

An excellent write up as usual Roy.  Your insight and experimentation will be sorely missed in any forum you participate.  Does this mean you will no longer be experimenting, or just that you will no longer be sharing your results?

 

[Johnseye]

1 hour ago, afrancois said:

Interesting post, however, what many people tend to forget is that most new albums that are pressed on vinyl, have been through the digital machine. Very few pure analog recording studio's still exist today. Even quite old recordings have been digitally remastered before they are pressed onto vinyl. Something to think about. Honestly, I never heard a top class analog system in my life. Something I should do in the near future, with the risk of being somewhat disappointed for the rest of my life. This already happened to me in the digital domain, the day I heard a Steinway-Lyngdorf model D. Sorry this is my second post mentioning Lyngdorf. Guess what I have at home :-)

 

It is easy to hear when a vinyl album comes from a digital source.  I typically don't bother buying these because you might as well be listening to the digital version.  There are exceptions but I won't digress.  There are some companies like Music Matters, Analog Productions and Mobile Fidelity who do an incredible job of reissuing analog material.  Otherwise finding the original recording in the best condition is your best bet.  Also, recording studios began mastering on digital media around 1975 growing over the years with CDs becoming mainstream in about 1982.

[Johnseye]

13 minutes ago, afrancois said:

I find this is quite a bold claim, saying that you can hear that a vinyl record comes from a digital source. When you know how digital has evolved since 1984 and even then it was almost impossible to reliably detect the presence of an ADC/DAC. See http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/bas_speaker/abx_testing2.htm

Don't want to start a discussion on digital vs analog :-) Both have their advantages and disadvantages.

 

 

It is a topic for another place for sure.  It isn't that difficult to hear the difference.  I'm sure I wouldn't be 100% in a DBT but I'd be better than 40%.  I'll have to read it, thanks for sharing.  Also keep in mind, I was referring to vinyl from an analog source vs vinyl from a digital source.

[Johnseye]

3 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

I use the Chord 2Qute to drive my highly efficient Omega's.  The other Chord DAC's have a more powerful output, so I would conclude as Roy did, all Chord DAC's in current production.

 

Meaning to say that no other DAC on the market today can do this?

[Johnseye]

11 minutes ago, mozes said:

One important factor is the ultra low impedance of Chord dacs. To put this into perspective, Mytek Brooklyn has an impedance of 75.5 ohms (as reported by Stereophile) through its RCA outputs compared to 0.055 ohms for Dave. That is an impedance which is 1000 times higher 

 

No doubt that's an amazing stat.  Just wondering if they're the only game in town when it comes to this.

[Johnseye]

2 hours ago, austinpop said:

@romaz

 

You are clearly the most interesting man in computer audio! 

 

I'm guessing you don't always drink beer, but when you do, you prefer one that is "well-balanced, resolute and transparent." 

 

I will be buying you said beer when we meet up in RMAF.  Or any libation of your choice!

 

Every time I read his posts I want to buy a DAVE or something he mentions.  Maybe next year, or I'll wait for the next iteration from Chord.

 

I did get my Hynes SR7 in the other day.  I still have to put some time in with it, but if what I'm hearing now is attributable to the SR7 and nothing else...wow, I'm floored.

[Johnseye]

1 minute ago, rickca said:

Alas, my private jet is a money pit.

 

Yes, we do with what we have.  I've put more money into my 2 channel system over the past year and a half than probably my entire life.  FWIW the DAVE is fairly reasonably priced, especially if you don't use a pre or an amp.

[Johnseye]

16 minutes ago, rickca said:

More power to you, and congratulations on the SR7.

 

That was me lamenting.  Imagine me expressing a heavy sigh and disbelief when you read that (not the SR7 comment).  It's not a good thing, it's kinda nuts.

[Johnseye]

8 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Can someone point me to the specifications for the S7?  

 

The SR7MR uses a custom manufactured mains transformer with up to 500VA rating depending on the overall rail requirements.

 

The error amplifier used in the voltage regulator modules has the following specification :-
Noise voltage < 0.5 nanovolts root Hz
Operating Bandwidth < 300 Mhz
Supply line rejection < 80 dB DC to 100 KHz
Output impedance < 3 milliohms DC to 100 KHz
Transient response and settling time < 100 nanoseconds

 

For fixed output voltage versions the SR7 provides 125W and the SR7MR chassis can support up to 250W spread across the rails.  The SR7 can support one 10A module.

 

The output voltage and output current can be specified within this power rating using the formulae :-
V = W/I
I = W/V

 

For variable output voltage versions of the power supplies, set at the maximum output
voltage of the range, the SR7 provides 125W.

 

The SR3, SR5 and SR7 single rail supplies are also available in DR versions where two of the high performance voltage regulators are cascaded to a give supply line and rectification interference rejection exceeding 150 dB from DC to 100 KHz. This provides lower overall noise levels than the standard power supplies and better dynamic performance.

Power supply dimensions are :-
SR3 – W = 110mm, H = 50mm, D = 170mm
SR5 – W = 224mm, H = 90mm, D = 260mm
SR7, SR7MR2, SR7MR3 – W = 224mm, H = 130mm, D = 260mm
SR7MR4 – W = 224mm, H = 130mm, D = 340mm

[Johnseye]

Just now, lmitche said:

Thanks Johnseye,

 

I was curious to learn if the Paul Hynes LPSes are powerful enough to support an Hqplayer upsampling machine.  Looks like the answer is no.

 

Your quick and comprehensive response is appreciated.

 

That depends.  I plan on using HQPlayer to upsample.  I won't be going to DSD 512, but I'll be upsampling to PCM 352.  I'll let you know how things go.

[Johnseye]

3 minutes ago, auricgoldfinger said:

 

How much power do you require for HQP upsampling?

 

Larry may know more, but I think it's related to the proc used.  DSD 512  probably requires a 91-95w proc.  I'm using a 35w and am not coming close to that utilization.  I think my server draws about 25w total, but have no current interest in DSD.

[Johnseye]

10 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Ethernet cables revisited

 

As y'all know, I had reported quite a while back that the SOtM dCBL-Cat7 ethernet cable improved SQ more than the other cables I had on hand - BJC Cat 6a, and Supra Cat8.

 

I also mentioned that the price of the dCBL-Cat7 ($500 for 1.5m) was a sore point for me. It's funny, because I do hear differences in cables. With USB cables, I liked the Lush over the Curious, with power cables, I recently confirmed that the PS Audio AC-12 and Cardas Clear M power cables sounded better than the basic Pangea's that I was using. But somehow expensive ethernet cables get my goat! 

 

Anyway, I've caved. I recently bought Ghent's JSSG Ethernet cabe with Metz plugs, in the hope that it would match up to the dCBL-Cat7. Sadly, no such luck. The JSSG is a nice cable, about on par with the Supra. But compared to it, the dCBL-Cat7 is a significant step up.

 

I guess I'm getting one.

 

It's all about the filter, and Lee makes good filters.

 

[Johnseye]

25 minutes ago, limniscate said:

At the end of May, a few days after @ElviaCaprice

 

I don't want to digress down this path again, but what should have been explained to all those who placed orders for an SR7 is that Paul prioritized Elvia's SR7 since he was going to Costa Rica.  That pushed everyone's orders going back at least a month and a half, if not more,  out.  Hopefully that bit of info gives some understanding of the timing of people's orders when compared to others.

 

I'll post a separate review of the SR7 after I get some more time with it, sometime next week(end).  My initial, tentative, subject to change thoughts on it are that the noise reduction benefited from this LPSU allows for unprecedented clarity and articulation of the music.  It allows for increased depth, extension and separation of the instruments.

 

I say that with a caveat because so far instead of just using an LPS-1 on my SMS-200 I'm now using the SR7 for my server (previously powered by an HDPlex supply) and SMS-200 while the LPS-1 is on my switch.  That's two sources changed from switching to linear and one theoretically improved upon by going from LPS-1 to SR7.  I also powered just the SMS-200 and switch by the SR7 and the ISO Regen by the LPS-1 and that had a very similar impact.  The IR is another factor all together which changes the sound in and of itself so as you can see there are several variables to consider.

 

My SR7 is a 2 rail with an adjustable range of voltages.  That allows for even more variables as I could run the SMS-200 at 9v or 12v.  Additionally, my rail 1 has a DR option.  I'll get to testing it all eventually.

 

The best conclusion one could make at this point is that clean power at as many sources in the chain as possible provides the lowest noise reduction and best possible sound.  We already knew that, but the level to which I can hear a difference is not micro.  It's not quite macro, but it's close.

[Johnseye]

18 minutes ago, sig8 said:

Johnseye: How much your server draws in watts? Which HDPlex you were using before? I have an SR7, but have not connected to my i7 6700 server yet, i use a 350W HDplex ATX LPS for now. I know total draw on my server is about 90W.

 

My server draws between 20-25w.  It's simple and fanless. Every component was chosen for low power, while still providing a minimum for upsampling capability.  I'm currently upsampling with Roon but am going to give it a go with HQPlayer.  We'll see if my watt usage increases then.

 

I was using the HDPlex 160w 19v adapter.

[Johnseye]

1 hour ago, sig8 said:

Johnseye: How much your server draws in watts? Which HDPlex you were using before? I have an SR7, but have not connected to my i7 6700 server yet, i use a 350W HDplex ATX LPS for now. I know total draw on my server is about 90W.

 

1 hour ago, Johnseye said:

 

My server draws between 20-25w.  It's simple and fanless. Every component was chosen for low power, while still providing a minimum for upsampling capability.  I'm currently upsampling with Roon but am going to give it a go with HQPlayer.  We'll see if my watt usage increases then.

 

I was using the HDPlex 160w 19v adapter.

 

It's also worth noting that if you add up the stated wattage of each component that doesn't equal your requirement. If you want to know actual utilization get a Kill A Watt, put it in line. When you do this for all your components or are measuring your amp or preamp turn the volume up to the loudest tolerable level. 

 

Your utilization will likely be much less than stated spec. 

[Johnseye]

7 minutes ago, rickca said:

Maybe that wasn't oregano in his spaghetti sauce.

 

He said he doesn't do that stuff and hadn't been drinking.  Although he said the Dutch don't do that stuff but Amsterdam's cafes are world renowned so...

[Johnseye]

2 minutes ago, rickca said:

Well then maybe this is what happens once your negative output is shunted to ground.  Nothing wrong with enthusiasm!

 

LOL I think you've been reading too many of Swenson's posts.

[Johnseye]

38 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

1.  Yes, I did previously on an older posting.  The main thing here, if your going to do this, is to allow SOtM the liberty to change out the clocks as they see fit.  On the mobo board I can see that they have used several connections to expand the number of clocks modded.

2.  My data (music) and OS are on the same 2.5" 5V HDD, partitioned.  I could use the msata SSD and I still may, after testing, just don't have the luxury of separating the power from the NUC to a LPS-1, like I can with the HDD.  The HDD is a normal SATA III capable drive.  The Jetway NUC mobo I have is rated for SATA II.  The HDD is backward compatible.  I'm not sure if SOtM changed out the clock on the SATA mobo, or if they could?  I pretty much gave them liberty to do as they saw fit with some restrictions of what I was going to use and not use.

3.  No, I do not do as Roy is doing with the tX hub for connecting a drive.   If I had an extra tX hub laying around I would have  done the same.  I don't think this is critical for results.  I use JRiver, which loads to memory and plays back from there. 

4.  No, as you can see from the photos, there is no room for anything extra in the NUC enclosure.  Once I get the SOtM master clock and Paul Hynes in place, then I will probably enclose the SCLK-EX into an enclosure like I did for the 2.5" HDD.  Would be easy to do.

 

You would be breaking new ground with a Roon Server build via sCLK-EX.

 

Would you hypothesize there's no need for a tx-USBultra with the modded tXUSBexp making that an ultra?  Unless you have directly compared it with a tx-USBultra in line.