A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

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On 3/24/2019 at 9:50 PM, romaz said:

With the SR7 powering the i7 NUC, I can push as far as the i7-8650U will go (maxes out at 3.8GHz even though Intel claims it can go to 4GHz) and unacceptable harshness never really becomes an issue but this depends on the server CPU frequency.

 

Just as an FYI;

Regarding the max speeds; beyond the base operating frequency anything above is considered ‘turbo’ with the i7 CPU’s. The max turbo speed is defined by the number of cores running at max. turbo simultaneously at any single time. For the i7 8650U the max speeds are:

 

Turbo Frequency

4,200 MHz (1 core), 4,200 MHz (2 cores), 3,900 MHz (3 cores), 3,900 MHz (4 cores)

 

https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/intel/core_i7/i7-8650u

 

For the i7 8700t these are:

 

Frequency	2,400 MHz
Turbo Frequency	4,000 MHz (1 core), 3,900 MHz (2 cores), 3,900 MHz (3 cores), 3,900 MHz (4 cores), 3,800 MHz (5 cores), 3,800 MHz (6 cores)

 

https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/intel/core_i7/i7-8700t

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3 minutes ago, Chopin75 said:

I don't think SSD can be shut down for Euphony, as it is not running in RAM but perhaps the OS is going to a quiet mode during music playback even using Stylus. I have noticed Euphony is very efficient, using less RAM and CPU than regular computer OS. 

 

Exactly, and the same goes for Innuos. You can’t just shut down a SSD when it’s not used since the OS is constantly doing things on disk. The disk not being there would result in a system crash immediately. The best one could do (besides running everything from RAM) is minimize OS/software processes needing to access the disk and/or -maybe- enable agressive power saving which can put the SSD’s into a low power state. Still not the same as no disk/the disk being “shut down”.

 

Needing the disk is nothing but a compromise for stability/usability in commercial OS’es. It being SSD’s is a compromise to cut costs.

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5 minutes ago, hurka said:

Hpuln mini 8 rails psu.....

 

What are you showing in both your posts. Some text explaining would be welcome and useful.

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1 hour ago, Nenon said:

 

You certainly can by moving things to RAM. I am not suggesting Innuos does hat. But carefully designed OS/app/hardware interaction can achieve that. Roon for instance is constantly monitoring your music folders, which is probably not a good thing for noise generated by your storage media. 

 

Looks like you didn’t read my entire post.

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35 minutes ago, Nenon said:

 

Yes, I did :).

 

We have different OS flavors and software players that do bits and pieces. None to my knowledge is doing all the optimizations that help or at least don't hurt too much) the sound quality. I would really like to see a platform that takes advantage of a combination of things:

- AL-like optimized OS running in RAM

- Enable the SSD controller only to copy the music in RAM; disable right away

- Roon-like interface, metadata, etc.

Euphony is still on my list to explore, but from what I am reading so far there are definitely things we can learn from them as well. Or maybe, it is an end-game... nah, I don't believe that

 

 

Sorry, I misunderstood your previous post. We surely agree!

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30 minutes ago, numlog said:

Does anyone know why the 16GB optane card is only showing 13.7GB of usable space? there are no hidden ''reserved'' or ''recovery'' partitions, it was completely wiped in the windows installer. 

16GB should have equated to 14.8GB actual space, Server 2016 needs 14.5 to install...

Aside from the drive just having less space than the already lower ''actual size'', the only thing it might be related to is how the drive was initialized, which was done with the default settings in disk manager on another copy of windows.

 

I was already prepared to return for the 32GB version in case the Windows installation would fail with such little headroom on drive, pretty disappointing to be halted even earlier.

 

There are probably builds of S2016 that are a bit smaller to fit on it, but not much hope finding them.

 

 

 

 

It’s always been like that with harddisks, first manufacturers specify 16GB as 16 000 000 000 bytes (decimal), not 17.179.869.184 B (binary) while your OS does. Then there’s also some overhead for the filesystem which lowers the available space to us.

 

edit; I see you already accounted for the drive manufacturers ‘dirty trick’. Here’s the real reason, you’re missing even more:

 

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/articles/000024018/memory-and-storage/intel-optane-memory.html

The capacity shown in the Windows* operating system for the Intel® Optane™memory series module is less than what is noted on the box. Why is this?

‘The module uses a small portion of memory media management and maintenance. The listed density is the raw density of the 3D XPoint Memory Media. The total user capacity remains constant throughout the life of the drive.’

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Dual (or three, four, ...) SOtM sNH-10G switches anyone (like discussed some pages back in this topic)?

 

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/sotm-snh-10g-network-switches-x2-the-new-king-of-usb-network-gadget-setup.27758/

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12 hours ago, Nenon said:

I have seen some comments about adding EMI absorbing paper on the RAM. It seems like the Statement has done the same. 

Are you covering just the top side or both sides?

 

 

Coincidentally I’ve applied some 3M AB5100SHF (which replaced the popular 3M AB5100S) to my RAM modules inside the NUC7i7DN when I built it recently. I also applied some of it to the top of all the motherboard connectors which are exposed to the outside (usb, ethernet etc.) like Innuos also does to the ethernet ports and most right port in your picture. With the 3M material I used (1mm thickness) I couldn’t apply it to both sides of the SO-DIMM modules since then it would not seat properly so I applied it to just the top sides. Unfortunately I can’t tell if it made a difference since I was changing too many things at once.

 

Having read much about experiences of others with the EMI absorbers in the past I’ve been careful not to overdo it (use too much). Recently Romaz also mentioned he once did this and it then seems to dampen too much and give a bit of a lifeless sound. 

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37 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Larry, was the combo of "asound.conf+standard priority" a net improvement over " no asound.conf+extreme priority"?

 

Answer here:

 

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29 minutes ago, Dev said:

 

I have narrowed down the issue with the Optane memory. Once Linux loads and starts accessing them, the squeaking noise starts. I tried playing with the power settings in the Bios but no luck. Not sure if its a board issue or something with the memory.

 

Can someone with Optane installed on i7 NUC confirm or deny if they hear any noise please ?

 

If it’s not a property of this type of memory modules (I can’t test since I have no Optane memory) the cause could also be the lack of sufficient power (causing a voltage drop under load). Does this also happen with the standard NUC power supply?

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15 minutes ago, Dev said:

 

Good point. It may not be the memory module itself since they are solid state devices but could be the electronics around it. Its powered by JS2 which I believe is more than sufficient. I haven't tried the NUC smps but will shortly. I have also ordered another one from Amazon to compare.

 

The JS2 should indeed more than powerful enough but indeed you could check anyway with the default PSU. I do know the thing called ‘coil whine’ if that’s what you hear (my music server (non-NUC) has it too though at a very low SPL) and mourip probably also referred to it. It could be hard to fix but if you Google the term you could perhaps find some strategies on how to deal with it.

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58 minutes ago, mourip said:

I have a JCAT Femto ethernet card on the way. Hope springs eternal...

 

 Me too!  Unfortunately it was/is delayed but I did receive a UPS notice last week (though it’s not en route yet) so it must be coming soon to us!

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18 hours ago, Balázs said:

Has anyone tried an Intel NUC Roon endpoint with the JCAT femto cards yet? Using a PCI riser dual adapter for the external USB and NET cards could be a SOtM reclocking alternative, couldn't it? 

 

SOtM say they will release a mPCI(M.2) and PCIe compatible network card themselves in Munich. Not sure what it’ll look like and if it’s small enough to fit inside a NUC or one of the Akasa NUC enclosures. 

 

https://www.sotm-audio.com/sotmwp/english/highend2019/

 

Check this link for a ‘how to’ JCAt NET card “inside” a NUC. I don’t believe anyone active in this thread has done this. Several did install the NET card inside the server.

https://jcat.eu/install-jcat-cards/

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If both 12V and 19V PSU’s can deliver 3A, the 19V can also deliver more continuous power: P=V*I so 19*3=57W vs 12*3=36W.

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@Tommd64 Undervolting the CPU means that you’re running the CPU below it’s nominal/specified voltages and thus reduce the power usage. All CPU’s have some margins at which they run correctly, go too low and the dystem becomes unstable. Overclockers often do the opposite, they raise the voltage and increase cooling capacity when needed so it can run stable on higher clock speeds.

 

(I haven’t tried it yet with the NUC btw)

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5 minutes ago, Tommd64 said:

I know but with a NUC its noproblem at all; it regulates the real power inside of the Nuc..

It’s got nothing to do with the power applied externally which you mentioned so that’s why I explained.

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18 minutes ago, drjimwillie said:

In the write up by Romaz, he says the SMG Extreme uses a ASUS server motherboard. Can anyone report on exactly which motherboard?

it was mentioned on the previous page in this topic and it is correct:
 

 

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10 hours ago, rickca said:

Conventional ATX power supplies don't have a 19V output required to power the DC-ATX.

Actually, it needs 16V DC or higher. (I’m nitpicking here of course since ATX PSU’s don’t supply anything over 12V 😉)

 

13 hours ago, austinpop said:

JCAT Net card now bus powered

I think you used bus power because of the SR7 powering the entire server but did you check the results in that config but still powering the JCAT Net with the SR4? I wouldn’t dare to predict what would be better to be honest.

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27 minutes ago, rickca said:

and two fans.

I count even four; two big chassis fans, one on the CPU module and one inside the PSU. 😀

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Some interesting developments here. And full circle again from lightweight endpoints to heavy servers/endpoints back to the lightweight endpoints again.

 

So there’s the Intel i9/Ryzen7 or 9 servers, Allo USBridge, Optical Rendu and Engineered eRED-Dock options that should all outperform the NUC based endpoints. I had been thinking about replacing my dual server/NUC i7 endpoint for a single i9 machine build but now not to sure. The lightweight solutions make HQ powering stuff so much easier! 
 

Thanks all for sharing! 

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11 hours ago, jean-michel6 said:

Can Roon see it at all as a UPnP/DLNA renderer? I need to test that .

No need to test. Roon does not support UPnP (they actually ‘hate’ it and I don’t blame them).

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14 minutes ago, davide256 said:

You will be disappointed with the Allo route. I've used RPI 3, Allo USBridge/Digione, they could approach a microRendu in SQ with good PS but the cheaper hardware limited how clean the sound was. Discovering NUC/Audiolinux was transformative, just left the microRendu in the dust for depth of detail.  On the NUC route I've

evolved from Pentium to I3 to I7 using Uptone Audio PS's and each step up in processor for endpoint improved resolution even with the low CPU utilization of PCM playback. My only regret on the NUC side is lack of a PCIE slot for a dedicated USB card .I've replaced USB out power from the NUC with 5v from an LPS 1.2

which was a significant SQ gain but suspect that the HW quality of the "comes with" USB ports have some penalties for audio

Thank you Dave for sharing this. Reading bobfa’s recent review made me believe the USBridge would be better.

 

Regarding the NUC, I agree and really “had to“ use a sotm TX-USBUltra to ‘clean’ things up, without it was way too noisy with it I retained the NUC positives.

 

 I’m sure you know about the M.2 to PCIe converters but in case you don’t here’s one: https://www.ebay.com/itm/25cm-M-2-Key-M-to-PCIe-x1-Riser-Card-Cable-for-Bitcoin-mining-R41SR-WK-/253454407364

 

Of course using such an adapter rules out the option of using any M.2 storage options (Optane or conventional SSD’s) and one has to fabricate something to house the USB card.

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On 2/2/2020 at 9:03 AM, seeteeyou said:

the latest 2020 model of Sablon Audio Panatela Reserva Elite

Ordered! 😁 Thanks for pointing it out, I had been on the lookout for a USB cable to replace the too short (20cm) Curious Regen link in my system and had started a list with several options to research including a second Phasure Lush^2, Shunyata Alpha USB, Intona (but not the $2000 or so Ultimate) and the Final Touch Audio Callisto but this one seems to fit the bill perfectly so I decided to take the gamble, end the search and order it. It’s shipping from London tomorrow. 👍

 

 

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On 2/28/2020 at 6:09 AM, Nenon said:

I got one of these switches

Hi Nenon, do you mean you got the Buffalo BS-GS2016/A (or the non /A version perhaps)?

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43 minutes ago, elan120 said:

Just curious, did you not get the Elite version?

 

25 minutes ago, Blake said:

 

@elan120 and @matthias, sorry the price was $750.  I did get the Elite version.

 

Apparently I didn’t have enough cofffee this morning😁

Just as an FYI, there’s no longer an Elite or non-Elite version for the 2020 cable. Just an ‘unpowered’ (no 5Vbus wire internally) or the regular USB spec version (with 5Vbus connected).

 

Also see: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/sablon-usb-cable-2020-model.29912/