A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[the_doc735]

44 minutes ago, Blackmorec said:

Hi Alan, Thanks for the nice comment.

 

For sure the Statement is going to provide a very worthwhile step up, but if you are too heavily invested in an SE + reclocking, there are other ways to enhance its performance significantly without spending tons of money, basically by using the same approach to other parts of your system that Innuos has used on the Statement.

Couple of examples...if you use an ISP supplied router and wi-fi, chances are very high that its limiting your system. Add a decent high tech 3 band router with a high quality 2 rail LPS for modem and router and you’ll immediately gain a significant step up in sound quality. Place a decent cable between modem and router for another jump in SQ.  Place the router on the base module of the little Atacama mini rack and smile at the improvement that brings. Similarly, on the streaming side you could add a high quality switch like the AQVox or if you already have one, adding a high quality LPS in place of the standard SMPS uplifts the sonics considerably without any downside. Put that LPS on an Atacama mini base if you want another smile. Finally add a dedicated chassis earth to the AQVox if you don’t already have one. Oh, and if not already done, an upgrade to the SE’s power cable is also very beneficial....only run it in on something that draws some decent current otherwise it takes weeks to sound like it should. 

By the time you’ve finished sound quality will be very close or equivalent for a not huge investment. The SE is a great piece of kit, but there are areas that can be improved; hence the Statement. However the SE responds extremely well to upstream upgrades, giving you the potential to apply better power suppliers, network devices and vibration control to achieve significant performance improvements. 

go 'ad-hoc' & simplify! less is better.

[the_doc735]

@marce 

 

Roughly translated it says:

Soon available Scrion

The PinkFaun Scrion is a Roon endpoint

Equipped with a linear supercap power supply

Standard outputs AES/EBU, coax and optical

Expandable with multiple digital output variants such as i2s-TTL or LVDD

 

...more LPS and not SMPS.

 

[the_doc735]

On 10/24/2018 at 9:42 PM, romaz said:

Here is what is really interesting to me.  As I have posted, I was quite surprised when this cheap AudioLinux-based NUC that I stumbled upon outperformed my much more expensive SE but only when I powered my NUC with my DR SR7.  When powered by an SR rail from my SR7, I felt the NUC still had a slight edge over the SE but with the DR rail, the superiority of the NUC was incontrovertible.  During blinded tests, friends and family unanimously chose the NUC as sounding better than the SE.

A lot of talk scattered about NUC's in this thread.....

 

A throrn in the side of the NUC perhaps?

 

"Audiophiles want the best sounding playback system they can afford. Based on my functionality tests and listening sessions, the microRendu could be the solution. I've never had better sounding audio in my room with any other device or server or streamer. Period. Those who want the best must give the microRendu a spin". 

"commercial motherboards contain extremely noisy DC to DC converters and switch mode regulators. Thus, even though an expensive linear power supply may be used on the outside, the power signal is going through a gauntlet of garbage once it hits the motherboard on its way to the USB output that feeds power to the USB DAC". 

Chris Connaker.

see this

 

....seriously considering a rendu 1.4 which is essentially an early version of the ultrarendu, based on this review. Best bang for the buck and a case of diminishing returns for the more you spend. i.e. signature rendu, a lot of dosh for a small return!

I think the 'ultra' with a top end LPSU would be as good as it gets? (for the average punter! - not able to spend say £60,000 on a system)? General purpose mobo's could be 'last year' for me personally now!

 

Any comparisons of NUC Vs. Rendu please?

 

Cheers!

 

PS: NUC's contain commercial mobo's B.T.W.

 

[the_doc735]

52 minutes ago, the_doc735 said:

A lot of talk scattered about NUC's in this thread.....

 

A throrn in the side of the NUC perhaps?

 

"Audiophiles want the best sounding playback system they can afford. Based on my functionality tests and listening sessions, the microRendu could be the solution. I've never had better sounding audio in my room with any other device or server or streamer. Period. Those who want the best must give the microRendu a spin". 

"commercial motherboards contain extremely noisy DC to DC converters and switch mode regulators. Thus, even though an expensive linear power supply may be used on the outside, the power signal is going through a gauntlet of garbage once it hits the motherboard on its way to the USB output that feeds power to the USB DAC". 

Chris Connaker.

see this

 

....seriously considering a rendu 1.4 which is essentially an early version of the ultrarendu, based on this review. Best bang for the buck and a case of diminishing returns for the more you spend. i.e. signature rendu, a lot of dosh for a small return!

I think the 'ultra' with a top end LPSU would be as good as it gets? (for the average punter! - not able to spend say £60,000 on a system)? General purpose mobo's could be 'last year' for me personally now!

 

Any comparisons of NUC Vs. Rendu please?

 

Cheers!

 

PS: NUC's contain commercial mobo's B.T.W.

 

The  Innuos Zenith SE also contains a commercial  supermicro mobo B.T.W. with "extremely noisy DC to DC converters and switch mode" regulators. So, I am not surprised that the humble NUC beats it hands down because it is tinier than the SE with probably less of those annoying converters onboard? (but they are still there!).

[the_doc735]

17 minutes ago, romaz said:

 

Yes, I still own a microRendu.  As a small low impedance device designed from the ground up for high-end audio reproduction (unlike a NUC), you would think these small devices should rule the world.  No disrespect to the microRendu which was a landmark product upon its release but the NUC I am working with, with all of its noisy switching regs and clocks soundly outperforms the microRendu at 1/3 it's price.

what price is that (1/3) please?

Cheers!

[the_doc735]

57 minutes ago, romaz said:

 

I paid $118 USD for this NUC:

 

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1401554-REG/intel_boxnuc7cjyh1_intel_nuc_kit_nuc7cjyh.html

 

I paid $80 USD for 8GB of RAM:

 

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&A=accessoryIntermediate&Q=&sku=1244579&is=REG

 

A microRendu without a PSU sells for $640.

Looks like a really good deal mate!

I have the opportunity of a rendu 1.4 (aka: ultra rendu) for $300 AUD? ($875 RRP/MSRP).

With all respect, Do you have any justification for your statement that the NUC outperforms the rendu 1.3/1.4 ? Or is it based purely on listening? e.g. things like graphic charts superimposed ?

Your proof could influence my purchase decision! So it's quite important to me, at this moment in time!

Cheers!

[the_doc735]

31 minutes ago, romaz said:

 

1)  I'm not sure what you mean by graphics charts superimposed?  If you mean measurements, no, I have no measuring equipment other than my ears to tell me how good something sounds. 

2 ) In fact, you won't find any meaningful measurements for the microRendu either. 

3  )What I will tell you is that to my ears, the difference between the two is not subtle but don't take my word for it, do your own comparison. 

4) These are not wildly expensive pieces and you should be able to easily re-sell or re-purpose the loser.

1) yes I do mean measurements.

2) I didn't know that!

3) was that a blind test where you didn't know which you were listening to? Yes I could afford to compare!

4) true

 

thanks very much for your unbiased input!

take care!

[the_doc735]

31 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Since I trust Roy's ears, I've got to believe that it's the PSU that makes the difference 

 

are these blind tests where you are totally unaware which device is being implemented (& presented to your ears)? If you know which device you are listening to, before you listen to it, surely that creates a placebo effect?

My friend John Wood the UK valve amp specialist, says that you can never trust your ears because it's far too unpredictable and inaccurate.

Cheers!

take care!

[the_doc735]

12 hours ago, Dev said:

 

May not still beat the NUC + Audiolinux combo. The difference in processor architecture, their cache systems, pipelines, noise profiles can play a significant role in the sound quality. Too many variables at play and we can only be certain from subjective listening.

I don't think subjective listening alone could settle this debate.

[the_doc735]

what about this as a novel way of improving sound quality?

 

(nas>router>FMC>)>microrendu 1.4>ISO Regen>Ultradigital?

(in my case, because my DAC USB input isn't as good as the i2s input)...

...downside - requires a lot of PSU's!

[the_doc735]

15 minutes ago, romaz said:

 

Your SonicTransporter i7 should function capably as a RoonServer.  x86 applies to any Celeron, Pentium, Xeon, or i3/5/7 CPU (or the AMD equivalent thereof).  For RoonServer which performs the brunt of the heavy lifting, the more powerful CPUs seem to fare better but at what point are the benefits of lower latency outweighed by the negatives of higher noise?  While higher noise can be mitigated, as we have seen from servers like the Pink Faun 2.16 or Sound Galleries Evo, heroic efforts become necessary.  Also, what are the thresholds where SQ no longer improves?  Does 16-core sound better than 8-core or 4-core?  What clock rate is ideal?  How much SmartCache?

 

@vortecjr suggested that Linux already plays from RAM and uses RAM to speed disk operations.  This is true for all OS's, whether it be Windows, DOS, MacOS, or Linux.  But what we are talking about here is different.  It would make sense that because RAM is orders of magnitude faster than any disk, that to be able to avoid any and all disk access by running completely in memory is a big deal and my experience thus far strongly supports the validity of this approach.  Furthermore, to be able to avoid the noise imparted by a drive, especially an SSD makes this approach a slam dunk.  And so at the very least, figure out a way to run diskless, particularly with your endpoint.

a diskless server? available off the peg? 

cheers!

[the_doc735]

59 minutes ago, agillis said:

 

You could PXE boot Linux over the network and run a computer completely from RAM with no hard drive, SSD, or boot drive of any kind. This is not that hard to do and there are instruction on the internet to set up something like this.

 

But from my experience you would still be subject to all the other electrical noise in a computer. The best option is always to separate the server from the network player The configuration would be to use a network player with a small Linear supply powering each component on the board, not SSD drive and a small low power low noise ARM CPU.

 

This way you would eliminate all the noise from SSDs etc, all the noise from switching power supplies, and all the noise from large fast CPUs. This design is already available commercially. It's an ultraRendu.

got a chance of a microrendu 1.4, the precursor to the 'ultra', for a very reasonable price.

[the_doc735]

43 minutes ago, romaz said:

 

Your jumping into this without a full understanding of the context of what has already been discussed.

 

I wasn't going to name names but this cheap NUC we are talking about is completely diskless while the ultraRendu is not.  Even a microSD card creates some noise to the extent that people are reporting differences when they swap out the standard microSD card with an SLC card.  Furthermore, a microSD card is not a low latency drive.  Lastly, as I've stated, I'm not so sure a low noise ARM CPU sounds better than an x86-based CPU when it comes to Roon.  Having heard both the ultraRendu and even the Signature Rendu SE on several occasions, while these are very good sounding devices, to my ears, I would say they are roughly on par with a similarly well powered SOtM sMS-200ultra.  This cheap NUC with its noisy switching regulators is performing at a higher level.  

completely diskless! ~ how so?

[the_doc735]

NUC7CJYH   ...is this the totally diskless device?

 

cheers!

[the_doc735]

28 minutes ago, misterspense said:

As attractive this may seem, note that these are all very subjective. I've fiddling around with my system, tweaking lot of parts, and continuously notice differences, think it is getting better every time, and then some itch makes me go back to a more simple setup, and again I perceive it as 'better'.

 

keep it simple ...yes!

[the_doc735]

23 minutes ago, MrUnderhill said:

 

 

Gents,

 

Just want to say thank you for all the hard work you are putting into reporting your findings.

 

I have just done a three-way comparison between the ultraRendu, SOtM 200 ultra-txUSBultra-sps500, and the DCS Network Bridge. Having completed that you have encouraged me to buy the Celeron NUC, the suggested memory and AudioLinux - I will be fascinated to have a listen - even with a less than ideal PSU.

 

M

please keep us posted! ~ you doing your comparison 'blind' without knowledge of which setup you are listening to?   'YES!'?   ...otherwise it could be a placebo effect? take care.

PS: what about graphs (evidence)?

[the_doc735]

are most of these observations purely subjective?   ...with no graphs or charts or blind tests to back up the NUC theories? e.g. bit more bass. bit less bass. bit brighter, a little less cluttered, a bit wider image, a little clearer in complex passages; each with a change of a few cables, capacitors, clocks, psu's etc. etc.

Doesn't seem to be anything earth shatteringly devastating, no WOW! - OMG! moments?

 

Does anyone have any objective (fact) based evidence regarding this NUC phenomena ?

 

What would be a WOW! moment is if there was proof that a £120 NUC produces a result as good as dCS £20,000+ equipment!

 

I am a potential NUC purchaser! Just wanted to know?

 

...is it Chinese by any chance?

 

Many thanks to all.

[the_doc735]

18 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Hey Doc,

If you've come for measurements, you've come to the wrong place. We use our ears here.

If I could I'd refer you to a place that does these things with measurements. I haven't found one.

Larry

Oh right!

what about this place: https://www.audiosciencereview.com

cheers!

[the_doc735]

19 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

You'll find that the observations are mostly subjective.  Experiments followed by listening sessions, either solo or group, take place and the results are shared.  Those interested will often follow suit with a similar application to their own listening environment and share their subjective opinion.

 

Most of us don't have access to an anechoic chamber or the analyzers which could produce graphs or charts.  Blind tests do take place when multiple people are involved.  There are facts regarding the NUC specs discussed.  We're a bunch of hobbyists but there are some engineers and scientists who share their info from time to time.  People do share when there is a WOW! moment.

 

For $120 it's easy to test yourself, especially if you have that $20k piece of equipment already.  Then share your subjective experience.

many thanks for the info! Yes, true enough! for £120 I could test that and even get most of that back on here? No, I don't have the dCS stuff. I am more of a souped up ford focus guy, that likes to beat the Ferrari's! Same with Hi-FI (LOL)! Someday next year compare my set up to a top shop set up and see what the difference is with my EARS & 'blind' - of course! take care!

[the_doc735]

9 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

also, the dCS £20,000+ equipment has various design features not present in a NUC

like 'Deviant' stuff?

[the_doc735]

19 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

Are you just trolling?  A NUC is a brand name of Intel Corporation and stands for "Next Unit of Computing."  

Is it Chinese? Really?  I don't know where every part of a NUC is produced, but so what if some parts are made or assembled in China?

?  Good grief.

not trolling, just asking.

[the_doc735]

35 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

@the_doc735 Stay on topic please. Go back to the first post in case you missed it.

Further - this thread is about listening impressions. We do not:

• Demand proof
• Require a specific methodology
• Require measurements. 

Sorry, I didn't know that, my apologies.

Is that part of the rules?

Cheers!

[the_doc735]

45 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

No worries. Not rules - call them guidelines. On CA the OP has the option to declare them. it just keeps us from going down ratholes!

So, can different threads have different guidelines?

Also, do some threads not have any guidelines diffined? (in the initial post)

 

cheers!

[the_doc735]

@austinpop   ...yes!    ....just seen first post! - Sorry!

[the_doc735]

43 minutes ago, hopkins said:

There are some very interesting projects out there ...

like what?

cheers"