Do the rich guys like DSD or PCM?

[beerandmusic]

+1

 

Thanks to the worthless input from the trolls (grin).

Actually it wasn't worthless to me...it kind of solidified several thiings....

1. Get something that supports both DSD and PCM

2. Who the trolls are.

3. The opinions that matter, like DSD.

[firedog]

beerandmusic-

 

Honestly, I think your approach here is pointless, and you are asking a question without an answer. And I for sure don't understand why the results of a poll mean anything to you. So 10 or 15 people answered and 20,000 out there who fit the criteria of the poll didn't answer. What did you actually find out? Nothing.

 

As far as trolls, your multiple threads here in the last week probably have many of us thinking that the term might apply to you....

[TomScrut]

I personally think that DSD sounds better through my Antelope Zodiac Platinum, but I use Dirac and therefore don't use DSD. Dirac makes far bigger difference than the format so that's why I don't use DSD even though I think it sounds slightly better when comparing without the EQ.

[sandyk]

I personally think that DSD sounds better through my Antelope Zodiac Platinum, but I use Dirac and therefore don't use DSD. Dirac makes far bigger difference than the format so that's why I don't use DSD even though I think it sounds slightly better when comparing without the EQ.

 

PCM is often degraded a little by overzealous filtering at the output stage in order to achieve extremely low distortion figures.

It's interesting to check the data sheet for the DSD1792 DAC I.C. which can be used for either or both, PCM and DSD, and see the huge amount of filtering used at it's output in DSD mode. It's savage compared with the PCM measurement schematic. Check out how much higher the capacitance values are for example.

[firedog]

duplicate

[firedog]

As far as Schiit, the pair who run it are on record as saying a) they think PCM sounds better than DSD; b) that DSD still is in the area of an audiophile fad, and until they are convinced that it is anything more than that (for instance, with the recording of new non-audiophile music in DSD) they don't see a need to produce DSD DACs. They aren't the only ones in the industry who prefer the sound of PCM and think DSD is pointless. And don't get me wrong, I like DSD.

[Teresa]

You don't have to be rich to be able to listen to DSD…Nothing to do with being rich or poor, DSD does sound better than PCM.

 

I agree!!

 

I am a poor audiophile who prefers DSD. My audio/video/computer system cost me less that 4k. There are many affordable DSD DACs well under 1k including my Teac UD-501.

 

…Both PCM and DSD are capable of producing excellent sound. However, in my system with my DAC, I would have to day that my best sounding albums are in the DSD format…

 

In my system too, music on DSD takes me to a higher plateau of musical enjoyment than any PCM no matter how high the sampling rate.

 

...in my limited testing DSD easily wins....

 

DSD sounds better to me also, but I’m a poor audiophile so I can’t answer any of your post’s questions.

 

...just if they believe the best available dsd music sounds better than the best pcm music...you (Alex) keep trying to read more into this than intended.

 

I agree Alex might be reading more into it, which makes we wonder if Alex has a pro-PCM bias, and I wonder if has ever heard a great native DSD music file or a Pure DSD SACD that was never converted to PCM?

 

I am shocked that every music lover, regardless of income doesn’t believe that DSD sounds better than the best PCM music, because DSD does sound the best to me, not just at home but everywhere I have heard it. The most goosebumps I have ever experienced in my life was listening to a Pure DSD Telarc SACD on the Playback Designs $17,000 SACD player. I could never afford one myself.

[sandyk]

I agree Alex might be reading more into it, which makes we wonder if Alex has a pro-PCM bias,

 

Perhaps my DIY PCM DAC is much better than average ? It easily outperformed an expensive modified Bricasti M1 DAC at a recent listening session. Others had already judged the modified Bricasti M1 to be better than a standard Bricasti M1 about a week earlier.

Many of you appear to be talking about DACs worth no more than $2K .

[master]

Many of you appear to be talking about DACs worth no more than $2K .

 

LOL... I think that's pretty accurate for only a few.

 

Pretty certain the majority haven't heard anything in the $500 range... maybe more closer to $200 or $100.

 

I mean we are talking computers and for most folks that's the onboard soundcard in their PC or laptop.

 

The other day I heard the Bel Canto DAC 2.7, exceptional performance especially in terms of bass and detail, and in my estimate expensive, but it retails for around $2500.

 

I'm not saying I haven't heard or know of anyone with an expensive DAC. I do know one guy with a dCS Scarlatti, but that's one guy. Extremely limited number when you are approaching those figures.

 

I do think $2000 to $3000 is the benchmark for the serious audiophile, for the rest of the folks the soundcard in their PC or the DAC in their smartphone is where its at.

[17629]

"I am shocked that every music lover, regardless of income doesn’t believe that DSD sounds better than the best PCM music, because DSD does sound the best to me, not just at home but everywhere I have heard it. The most goosebumps I have ever experienced in my life was listening to a Pure DSD Telarc SACD on the Playback Designs $17,000 SACD player. I could never afford one myself."

 

It still has to be done right. The format itself doesn't guarantee success. Line most people, I went out and bought a cheap SACD player when it first came out, only to be disappointed. (I think it was a Sony 9000ES). It was no match for my high quality Redbook players. Ultimately, I think DSD is a better format, but you still need to use good playback equipment for best results.

[beerandmusic]

As far as Schiit, the pair who run it are on record as saying a) they think PCM sounds better than DSD; b) that DSD still is in the area of an audiophile fad, and until they are convinced that it is anything more than that (for instance, with the recording of new non-audiophile music in DSD) they don't see a need to produce DSD DACs. They aren't the only ones in the industry who prefer the sound of PCM and think DSD is pointless. And don't get me wrong, I like DSD.

 

i certainly do not give any credence to an opinion of a company that only manufactures PCM that suggests pcm is better, just like i would discount a company that only made dsd dacs any credence that dsd is better.

 

Schiit doesn't specialize in DSD, and it would cost them a lot of money to go in that direction. They are likely a small shop that doesn't have the DSD engineering available to them. That is also likely why they discontinued the one dsd dac they did have, because they realized they couldn't keep up their reputation if they were slaughtered in the dsd realm. It makes sense for them to stay where they are at and to say pcm is better than dsd "for the record".

 

The notion that Schiits dsd opinion is relevant is laughable.

[beerandmusic]

Perhaps my DIY PCM DAC is much better than average ? It easily outperformed an expensive modified Bricasti M1 DAC at a recent listening session. Others had already judged the modified Bricasti M1 to be better than a standard Bricasti M1 about a week earlier.

Many of you appear to be talking about DACs worth no more than $2K .

 

haha...so now i see why the pcm bias.

[17629]

i certainly do not give any credence to an opinion of a company that only manufactures PCM that suggests pcm is better, just like i would discount a company that only made dsd dacs any credence that dsd is better.

 

Schiit doesn't specialize in DSD, and it would cost them a lot of money to go in that direction. They are likely a small shop that doesn't have the DSD engineering available to them. That is also likely why they discontinued the one dsd dac they did have, because they realized they couldn't keep up their reputation if they were slaughtered in the dsd realm. It makes sense for them to stay where they are at and to say pcm is better than dsd "for the record".

 

The notion that Schiits dsd opinion is relevant is laughable.

 

 

You don't know enough about the industry to be making these comments. Being a small shop has nothing to do with anything. Remember, it was Sony who failed with DSD and it was the small shops who kept the format alive in spite of the big engineers failing.

 

"The notion that Schiits dsd opinion is relevant is laughable."

 

What's laughable is that you consider your opinion as relevant after a few days of getting your education from conducting a few poorly conceived polls and combining it with some anonymous comments from people who support your delusions, on an internet chat forum. People were trying to be nice to you at first because it seemed like you wanted to learn. Now after your 3 day crash course on high end audio, you have your head stuck up your ego's ass and everyone's laughing at you. There's a difference between talking and doing, and you define that difference.

[barrows]

I surely do not understand the point of these types of debates? I like certain music, much of that music is only available in lowly 44.1 PCM, but if I can get a well mastered higher res version, either DSD or PCM, I will. Music comes first though, not the format. I use a DAC which can do a good job with PCM or DSD, and after many iterations of building various DACs, I have come to the conceal;union that biggest differences in DAC sonic performance comes from how the analog output stage is implemented, and the next most important difference comes form how the power supplies are implemented. All this discussion about DSD/PCM or even DAC filtering schemes, is way less important to sonic results than what is going on in the analog parts of the system.

Most affordable commercial DACs are really skimping when it comes to power supply and analog stage design, as doing these things right adds considerable expense, and cannot be done well at price points <$2-3K.

[beerandmusic]

 

"The notion that Schiits dsd opinion is relevant is laughable."

 

What's laughable is that you consider your opinion as relevant .

 

^^^ my my, don't you have your panties in a bunch.

I am sorry that my statement that "Schiits DSD opinion on if DSD is capable of sounding better than PCM" is irrelevant made you cry. I am sorry you don't understand the business logic that it would be stupid for a company that no longer engineers DSD dacs to suggest it is the better technology.

 

I won't resort to name calling though.

[beerandmusic]

I surely do not understand the point of these types of debates? I like certain music, much of that music is only available in lowly 44.1 PCM, but if I can get a well mastered higher res version, either DSD or PCM, I will. Music comes first though, not the format. I use a DAC which can do a good job with PCM or DSD, and after many iterations of building various DACs, I have come to the conceal;union that biggest differences in DAC sonic performance comes from how the analog output stage is implemented, and the next most important difference comes form how the power supplies are implemented. All this discussion about DSD/PCM or even DAC filtering schemes, is way less important to sonic results than what is going on in the analog parts of the system.

Most affordable commercial DACs are really skimping when it comes to power supply and analog stage design, as doing these things right adds considerable expense, and cannot be done well at price points <$2-3K.

 

Thanks for your input.

 

Two things.

 

1. To me the debate is relevant if I am contemplating spending $2K on either a PCM only dac or a 2K PCM/DSD dac.

 

2. Is it possible to make a DAC under 2K that doesn't do any filters well?

 

My guess is that most of today's prices are based on the engineering behind the solution, not the components themselves..

[sandyk]

haha...so now i see why the pcm bias.

 

Are you suggesting that what I posted is only due to personal bias ?

I already knew from other listening sessions elsewhere that my DAC was competitive, but I did not expect these results.

My friend with the Bricasti M1 (Au.$11,900) did all the setting up, switching, track selection and volume adjustments. We were using an Oppo 103 as a transport with the Bricasti M1 connected via coax SPDIF. My friend agreed that the DIY DAC did sound a little better.

At the end of the tests I noticed that input LED 1 was on in my DAC, which is a Toslink Input.

When my friend changed to Input 3 which is Coax SPDIF In, there was no signal.

He then connected the coax from the Oppo to my DAC and the SQ went up another level.

I haven't told my friend that there was no Toslink cable from the Oppo to the DAC, but that the signal from the Oppo 103 went via HDMI to the TV, then back again to Input 1 of the DAC via a cheap Toslink cable which I use for Audio when watching TV.

[barrows]

Thanks for your input.

 

Two things.

 

1. To me the debate is relevant if I am contemplating spending $2K on either a PCM only dac or a 2K PCM/DSD dac.

 

2. Is it possible to make a DAC under 2K that doesn't do any filters well?

 

Of course, anyone could make a bad sounding filter if they wanted to.

 

My guess is that most of today's prices are based on the engineering behind the solution, not the components themselves..

 

That is not really true. Doing power supplies really well requires many more parts than doing them just adequately, and those increased numbers of parts contribute significantly to increased product costs.

[Sal1950]

i certainly do not give any credence to an opinion of a company that only manufactures PCM that suggests pcm is better, just like i would discount a company that only made dsd dacs any credence that dsd is better.

 

Schiit doesn't specialize in DSD, and it would cost them a lot of money to go in that direction. They are likely a small shop that doesn't have the DSD engineering available to them. That is also likely why they discontinued the one dsd dac they did have, because they realized they couldn't keep up their reputation if they were slaughtered in the dsd realm. It makes sense for them to stay where they are at and to say pcm is better than dsd "for the record".

 

The notion that Schiits dsd opinion is relevant is laughable.

Mike Moffat is the godfather of high end digital and was listening/designing gear very likely before you were born. For you to discount Schitt Audios position on DSD as laughable only shows the arrogance behind your continued demands and the making of polls in search for others to support you.

Are you really so insecure in your position that you constantly need reinforcement?

BTW Currently 11 people have voted for DSD being superior.

15 have either voted that PCM is superior or that it doesn't matter.

[beerandmusic]

Mike Moffat is the godfather of high end digital and was listening/designing gear very likely before you were born. For you to discount Schitt Audios position on DSD as laughable only shows the arrogance behind your continued demands and the making of polls in search for others to support you.

Are you really so insecure in your position that you constantly need reinforcement?

BTW Currently 11 people have voted for DSD being superior.

15 have either voted that PCM is superior or that it doesn't matter.

 

Mr Moffat is heavily invested in time in PCM, and would probably be the first to admit he is "old school". Would you expect him to abandon ship.

Another way of looking at the poll is that 11 people believe DSD sounds better and only 3 people that have a dsd and pcm capable dac believe pcm sounds better.

 

The "who cares about dsd" was thrown in there for the trolls and in my mind is irrelavant. Anyone that would not at least consider dsd isn't a worthy opinion (imo).

 

Of those 3 that said they have dsd/pcm dacs, i would challenge them to reply (although they probably wont, challenge on), what dac they have and what is their predominant genre, and how much dsd material they have.

[17629]

^^^ my my, don't you have your panties in a bunch.

I am sorry that my statement that "Schiits DSD opinion on if DSD is capable of sounding better than PCM" is irrelevant made you cry. I am sorry you don't understand the business logic that it would be stupid for a company that no longer engineers DSD dacs to suggest it is the better technology.

 

I won't resort to name calling though.

 

 

I believe you when you say you don't understand my business logic. I'm not the half ass day trader that can't scrape up a few measly thousand dollars to buy a mid level dac. So, if you want to talk about business, I can buy and sell you with whatever loose change what I walk around with in my pocket (I mean that literally). I can't talk to you about audio because you don't know enough to have a conversation with me. So, take another poll, arm yourself with more nonsense and just keep doing what you do best. Talking. Its your only area of expertise.

[17629]

Mr Moffat is heavily invested in time in PCM, and would probably be the first to admit he is "old school". Would you expect him to abandon ship.

Another way of looking at the poll is that 11 people believe DSD sounds better and only 3 people that have a dsd and pcm capable dac believe pcm sounds better.

 

The "who cares about dsd" was thrown in there for the trolls and in my mind is irrelavant. Anyone that would not at least consider dsd isn't a worthy opinion (imo).

 

Of those 3 that said they have dsd/pcm dacs, i would challenge them to reply (although they probably wont, challenge on), what dac they have and what is their predominant genre, and how much dsd material they have.

 

 

I'll take your challenge. I have an Ayre 5 Series U2. In every genera, DSD sounds the best. Now you have proof.

[beerandmusic]

^^^

I am not going to suggest i have more knowledge or can hold a conversation with the engineering behind pcm/dsd.

All i can say what is "truth" to me, and that is that DSD sounds better from my limited experience.

 

Let's examine with logic instead of name calling or threats, why i think that this opinion is irrelevant:

 

This is the "stated opinion" that i have issue with:

 

As far as Schiit, the pair who run it are on record as saying a) they think PCM sounds better than DSD; b) that DSD still is in the area of an audiophile fad, and until they are convinced that it is anything more than that (for instance, with the recording of new non-audiophile music in DSD) they don't see a need to produce DSD DACs.

 

a) of course they think PCM sounds better....maybe pcm sounds better because they designed the pcm to their liking.

b) audiophile fad? is the audiophile world going to be satisfied wth PCM? If it was just a fad, it may have been a fad which forced engineer to improve resolution of pcm, so it is already more than a fad.

c) don't see a need to create dsd dacs. I don't think they could compete anymore if they did.

 

Again, i am sorry, that i find these stated opinions as irrelevant in my quest for helping me decide on my "measley investment".

I am retired, and the money does mean a lot to me to not try to find as much truth as possible.

[beerandmusic]

I'll take your challenge. I have an Ayre 5 Series U2. In every genera, DSD sounds the best. Now you have proof.

 

HUH? so you think DSD sounds best? So what did i say that offended you so much?

Seriously, you were offended that in my statement the owner of a PCM only dac company says pcm is better statement isn't helpful to me in my decision making process?

 

Seriously, if that offended you, i am sorry. I thought of it more as common sense than something that would upset someone.

[beerandmusic]

In all seriousness, I am merely trying to decide my next upgrade path in the way of DACS if there is any upgrade at all.

 

I guess that i am just amazed that anyone would buy a PCM only dac anymore and I am having difficulty understanding the thinking unless the SCHIIT really is that good. I mean there has to be something to it, if someone would buy something that wouldn't at least give them the flexibility of playing with both PCM and DSD...i guess I am just having a difficult time wrapping my head around it.

 

I have already tried several dacs, and none seem to do anything for me, and just curious if i am missing something.