ECdesigns

[bodiebill]

12 minutes ago, matthias said:

Here the answer from ECD to a similar question on diyaudio:

 

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/79452-building-ultimate-nos-dac-using-tda1541a-767.html#post6274638

 

19 minutes ago, hopkins said:

Thanks. I don't think there is any way to feed your SDTrans into the U96ETL. 

 

I was rather thinking of an external converter / DDC: I2S to USB. Unlike the opposite direction, this seems rare. There may be some studio devices doing that involving AES. I think I will let it go... 🙂

[bodiebill]

38 minutes ago, matthias said:

IMO, the most interesting comparisons are:

ECD combo vs U192ETL + Termi vs Termi solo

All with USB as input and different sources for comparison

 

With PC/USB source I already prefer the ECD combo to U192ETL + Termi.

However 'Termi solo' can work with other sources that are less flawed* than USB (such as SD transports with I2S), so I need to extend the comparison with those.

For instance SD transport + Termi is a winner, perhaps ex aequo with the ECD combo (need more time to let it sink in).

Hence my interest to listen to the ECD combo with I2S -- which may be impossible 😐

Currently it feels like comparing apples and pears, although they both taste delicious.

Also hard this way (having to change sources) to pinpoint the links in the chain that make the difference. 

 

* The ECD combo corrects these flaws -- including network noise -- to a large extent, but it would be interesting to hear that combo with a source that does not have these flaws. Network can easily be omitted, but usb seems a prerequisite for the ECD combo.

[bodiebill]

40 minutes ago, pm325 said:

You can try spdif-to-usb converters: https://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/HW/SPDIF-USB.htm

 

Thanks German!

[bodiebill]

19 minutes ago, matthias said:

Since you are considering "noise" only:

 

The "magic" of a server is preventing "noise" which is much superior than reducing "noise".

I would be happy if they achieve really "source independence". 

 

'Source independence' is ambiguous if we do not specify what we mean by source. For instance, we could split up what comes before the DAC as

(1) music file + (2) software + (3) connections + (4) player hardware (just an example).

I think we will all agree that there will never be source independence from (1).

Neither do I think from (2).

Possibly (although I have my doubts) from (3) or (4).

An important role of a good music renderer (4) is to combat the noise introduced by (3).

However -- alas -- (4) can in its turn also introduce noise itself.

I agree that preventing noise (such as by skipping network or usb connections) is easier than reducing/mitigating it.

[bodiebill]

21 minutes ago, matthias said:

Agree mostly,

prefer server without endpoint.

 

I would say I prefer and endpoint without server, but we may mean the same, in which case we agree fully 🙂

I guess we do not like the effect of what would be between the two boxes.

[bodiebill]

10 hours ago, tapatrick said:

So I decided the best results are

B - UC250 USB cable into U192 plus 5V USB injection from Paul Hynes SR4 

and 

G - Clean 5V power to DAC from Paul Hynes SR4

 

Thanks @tapatrick, very interesting, also because one would expect the LT3045's to reduce noise and apparently you find the actually worsen the sound.

Alas I cannot fully replicate the results as my SR4's lowest setting is 9V 😐

 

What do you use for DC cable? I am asking as the USB type B is not common for DC.

[bodiebill]

4 hours ago, tapatrick said:

For DC cables I use long trails of dual cat ethernet cables and PoE but that's a whole other kettle of fish...

There are lots of threads on this especially promoted and pioneered by the late Tubelover2 on US Audiomart. 

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/42959-iso-regen-performance-improvement-cheap/

 

At some point I will maybe take them all out (the back of my rack is a real spaghetti junction!) and try more generic DC cables to see if they still make the difference they originally did in the past. I'm really not sure these lengths are needed now with the EC combo...

 

 

Sorry, I should have asked: how do you terminate with an usb type B connector?

[bodiebill]

4 minutes ago, tapatrick said:

no probss.. In this case yes - as input to both the U192 and Fractal DAC is USB B?

 

I am unsure about the wiring when using the USB B connector, i.e. which wires (color codes?) are DC + and GND.

[bodiebill]

Indeed I was just googling it... sorry to be lazy and hasty 🙂

[bodiebill]

I have done some listening. Interim results below. I emphasize interim as the top contenders are very close and one may not be necessarily better or worse than another, but maybe just different. I need more time (many weeks) to further familiarize myself.

[bodiebill]

4 minutes ago, hopkins said:

It looks  like a match between the Terminator and the Terminator

 

That is not how I experience it. I hear that the ECD combo has qualities that in some way surpass the Terminator, so it is more about the source. The SDTrans384 is a glorious source but alas it does not speak with the ECD combo 😐  

[bodiebill]

21 minutes ago, matthias said:

Can you compare SPDIF vs. Toslink with U192ETL and Terminator?

 

The SDTrans384 and the PC do not have SPDIF (unless I connect my old Audiophileo which I am not inclined to do)

The HX500 does do SPDIF but I already found that it performs slightly better with I2S.

Or do you mean with the U192ETL in the chain, i.e. are you referring to the protocols? In that case wouldn't that be E versus F? 

 

Quote

What about removing the Iso Regen in configuration F?

 

The difference between with and without the ISO Regen is much less than before the ECD combo was added. However, I still prefer with. Source independence in this respect has decreased but not disappeared.

[bodiebill]

6 minutes ago, matthias said:

This is an interesting data point.

Just for comparison:

AFAIK, with the Taiko Extreme all USB reclockers etc and endpoints downstream did sound inferior than without these devices.

 

'Data point' may be saying too much as it is probably a matter of taste. The sound is slightly clearer without and slightly warmer/rounder with the ISO Regen. I am a sucker for warmth.

[bodiebill]

31 minutes ago, matthias said:

I mean IIUC you tried only Toslink between U192ETL and Terminator.

Maybe SPDIF does sound better?

 

Maybe I misunderstood. The ECdesigns website says about the U192ETL:

"The USB translator supports both, standard S/PDIF and low jitter ElectroTos protocols. It can be used with existing DACs (S/PDIF protocol) or our new Fractal DAC (ElectroTos low jitter protocol)."

I thought it required the ElectroTos cable with the distinction that it works with the SPDIF protocol in case of a non-ECD DAC and with the ElectroTos 'low jitter' protocol in case of an ECD DAC,

I did not even know it was allowed to connect a normal (symmetrical) SPDIF cable, but if that would work, there would be no optical isolation involved.

Of course I could try...

[bodiebill]

1 hour ago, matthias said:

Then maybe the description on the HP is somewhat misleading.

 

Agreed, it seems to be about protocols, not about actual physical connections.

[bodiebill]

39 minutes ago, hopkins said:

The only entry in your chart with both the U192 and the Fractal DAC is a configuration where you use wtfplay. I assume basic streaming is "subpar" and did not make it on your chart.

 

Correct. Based on the disappointing result with streaming to the GentooPlayer PC with U192ETL and the Terminator (E) compared to wtfplay with the same (G), I did define an option H (see pic) but have not tried it yet. I will try it when I have the time.

 

Of course I am not discarding streaming based on just this one setup with GentooPlayer, but I admit I am less motivated to further explore streaming based on my initial impressions.

 

I find it interesting that the HX500 does a much better job with streaming (C). I do not have an immediate explanation for this other than that the HX500 has a much lower footprint than any (oversized) PC.

[bodiebill]

1 hour ago, tapatrick said:

Ignore my query as I have worked out you didn't try this yet...

 

I must have been tired of all the comparisons, and omitted this one on the basis of the U192ETL + Terminator combo SQ deteriorating by just adding streaming (E vs G). So why add streaming at all? Well, because most of the buzz here is about the ECD combo mitigating the upstream noise. So I added H and here is the result (subjective of course as always):

 

This shows how successful the ECD combo is. H at least equals E, so that is a great job. Plus all the convenience that comes with it. And the cost effectiveness. (I think I could do without the Terminator if I did not have the SDTrans384 or want to listen to native DSD once in a while.)

 

Sorry to have kept all in suspense, but for me this looks like the icing on the cake.

My problem now -- but also fun -- is that I have too many great sounding options to choose from.

Time will learn what I will settle into...

 

If I would be convicted to H only, I would be a happy man.

[bodiebill]

1 hour ago, tapatrick said:

I see you tried the IsoRegen - I couldn't get mine to show up when inserted with EC combo, but I have found it to temperamental depending on what's in the chain. Not a biggie now but might try again to see if there is any difference/benefit.

 

In my case it does not 'show up' either, but neither does it hide the U192ETL when powered on, so it is part of the chain. 

[bodiebill]

1 hour ago, Ben75 said:

what is the interest of the DSD according to your ears? 😉

It seems to me that 24bot in 96kHz is already the top of the sound quality, isnt’t it?

DSD has a major : size... it is so heavy, like Wave files!

 

I used to convert everything to DSD as my previous DAC's DSD circuit was much better than its PCM circuit. It was a Lampizator Lite/Big 7 hybrid.

 

The Terminator that I am now using has a gorgeous PCM circuit, so I no longer convert flac files to DSD. I understand the Terminator upsamples all PCM to a whopping PCM1536 when in OS mode. This sounds slightly better to my ears than its NOS mode.

 

However, playing good original DSD material, upsampled to DSD256, has a certain magic that is missing from the same converted to HR PCM. A certain mildness, effortlessness, airiness. It is all very subtle but appreciated in longer listening sessions.

 

But I must say that I never thought the format itself is 'better', it is all chain dependent, as shown by the different DAC's. That is why it is not unthinkable that I would listen to PCM only. Otherwise I would not have dived so deep into the ECD gear.

 

By the way, my DSD files are packed in WavPack (wv) lossless format (40-50% size reduction, using f.i. xrecode3) and can be played directly by JRiver (not preferred) or the Russian Album Player console version that I run within wtfplay. But for serious listening I quickly convert them (again using xrecode3) to DSD256 dff format for the SDTrans384 or HX500.

 

Apologies if some of this is somewhat off-topic, however it is part of the playing field that helps assessing the value of ECD gear.

[bodiebill]

3 minutes ago, Ben75 said:

Depending of the potential coming reviews of the PowerDAC that some will write, would you expect to purchase it or not?

 

I only just purchased the U192ETL + DA96ETF + SVC24 combo and am happy with it.

Best SQ with streaming I ever had and I do not feel feverish yet to replace that combo by the PowerDAC  🙂 

I might consider it if it could in theory replace te Terminator, however I still need the latter for playing from SD transport with I2S (best SQ so far) and/or native DSD files.

[bodiebill]

9 minutes ago, matthias said:

As I understand the PowerDAC operates completely in the digital domain.

 

How is that possible for a Digital-to-Analogue converter?

[bodiebill]

29 minutes ago, tapatrick said:

How would you rate the SVC24?

 

I am really pleased with it, but must admit I have not tried many preamps.

 

Most preamps I used in the past seemed to 'take something away' from the sound. Until I tried the passive LDR based Australian Lightspeed Attenuator. This opened up the sound and felt like DAC-direct with just some attenuation. This was followed by a (also passive LDR based) DIY Stereo Coffee preamp from New Zealand, which seemed like a small step up. The SVC24 at least equals the latter, and appears to me even somewhat clearer/quieter. Its lack of a power supply does appeal to me.

 

Of course there are some that prefer active preamps. I just never heard one that could please me (which does not say much as I stopped trying long time ago).

[bodiebill]

26 minutes ago, tapatrick said:

I’ve made a few more tests with interesting results, showing that initial listening tests also need to be backed up by longer term listening to determine all the qualities of a set up:

 

Benchmark that I had settled on:

Antipodes DXe > ECD USB cable (with Clean 5V injection ) > ElectroTos > U192 > Fractal DAC (with Clean 5V injection ) > rest of system

 

New tests with bold showing the different additions:

A - Antipodes DXe > Ghent USB Y-Cable with extra shielding and Oyaide Input > U192 > ElectroTos > Fractal DAC > rest of system
https://www.ghentaudio.com/usb/u22.html

 

B - Antipodes DXe > ECD USB cable (with Clean 5V) > U192 > ElectroTos as Toslink > PS  Audio Junior DAC (upsamples to 10x DSD outputting 2x DSD)

 

C - Antipodes DXe > NUC Roon endpoint, (running Audiolinux in RAM, no hard drive - (powered by DIY 8x bank of LifePo4 Batteries with battery management circuit)) > ECD USB cable (with Clean 5V) > U192 > ElectroTos > Fractal DAC > rest of system

 

The thing is these all sound superb and it is very hard to tell the difference between each other and the benchmark.

 

A - Sounded the same as the benchmark - possibly slightly better. This is a tidier connection feeding clean 5V into the U192 and Data from my music server - so I'm sticking with this.

 

B - Removed the jumper from back of U192 and fed my PSAudio DAC with Toslink. Note this DAC does an internal DSD upsampling and conversion. This gave an amazing sound quality, best SQ from this DAC to date. I could live with this and highlights how the U192 is cleaning up toslink output/input. Toslink has always sounded brash to me before this point, so this tells me the U192 is a no brainer for feeding Toslink DACs.

 

Is it better/worse than the EC combo? It's very hard to tell at this point but has reduced the difference drastically. The sound is very clean and enjoyable which restores my faith in this DAC. However at £4000 v £575 for the DA96ETF it's a true bargain from EC. I will have to give it more time to tell which I prefer but at present I put them at equally enjoyable. There is a difference in sound character compared to benchmark but I would not say one is 'better' at this point.

 

C - This was also hard to tell from the benchmark yet still an amazing SQ. I used to run an NUC pair of Roon core and Roon end point (audiolinux, Ram boot, no hard drive etc) with this NUC as Roon end point and found it amazing at the time. However I slowly lost interest over time with the glitchiness of the set up and the 'digital' quality to the sound. Again, now I could definitely live with this. Will give these 2 set ups (B & C) some more listening time to determine which I prefer.

 

Great report, thanks!

I agree with the degree of SQ convergence we are now getting.

And -- partly as a result of that -- with the need for longer term listening to really be able to make up our minds...

[bodiebill]

Regarding the optimal source I am still toying with the idea to try one of the (rarely found) boxes that converts SPDIF to USB, thanks to @pm325 's suggestion. This would enable, for instance, the SDTrans384 to work with the ECD combo.

 

Anyone knows whether the Mutec MC-3+ USB could do that?

https://www.mutec-net.com/product_mc-3-plus-usb.php

It does look like it as its USB connection says 'I/O', but I am a little confused as this would require a (nonexistent?) USB cable with USB B connectors at both ends. 

[bodiebill]

25 minutes ago, seeteeyou said:

Recording should be supported (i.e. saving to a specific file that's stored on local drive) by Mutec while we're talking about SDTrans384 → Mutec → Computer → U192ETL in real time here.

 

So that does not look promising. I have no interest in recording as the music files are already available for the computer, for playing to the U192ETL.

 

I was actually thinking of SDTrans384 → Mutec → U192ETL, i.e. bypassing the computer.

 

Mutec's manual nor reviews are explicit about this, but it seems what I want is not possible given master-slave roles?

 

I will ask Mutec for confirmation.