ECdesigns

[Vincent des Champs]

Hi all,

 

I am new to the ECDesigns family and got introduced by @bodiebill. I had a nice conversation with Gordon last week and ended up in ordering both U and UPL with the fractal DAC. Gordon told me not to search full publicity until the products have reached a ‘final’ status.

 

Planning to use the U with the Allo USBridge Sig attached to my Hegel H590.  Lets see what these gems are capable of.

 

[Vincent des Champs]

Question: what do you use for feeding the U192ETL? Just the ‘known’ applications like Audirvana/ Foobar or are have different options been tried out?

 

When my rig arrives, I will give HYSOLID a shot: little bit buggy sw, but great SQ imho (https://www.hysolid.com/).

 

 

[Vincent des Champs]

2 hours ago, murphythecat87 said:

Jriver

I find since the 21st version Jriver sound better then foobar

Interesting read: WTFPLAY should be on the shortlist as well.

[Vincent des Champs]

I’ve been using the combo Allo Usbridge Sig (Shanti powered) - U192ETL  - Fractal DAC for a short time and I must say, promising! The level of micro details, dynamics, resolution and soundstage outperformes the internal DAC circuit of my Hegel H590 integrated (10k amp) with ease.

This weekend I will A/B test the U against the UPL.

 

 

[Vincent des Champs]

On 11/27/2020 at 5:46 PM, Vincent des Champs said:

I’ve been using the combo Allo Usbridge Sig (Shanti powered) - U192ETL  - Fractal DAC for a short time and I must say, promising! The level of micro details, dynamics, resolution and soundstage outperformes the internal DAC circuit of my Hegel H590 integrated (10k amp) with ease.

This weekend I will A/B test the U against the UPL.

 

 

The comparison brought me the following:

- The UPL pictures a more ‘black canvas’ and an even more striking 3d image - I would say somehow 10% improvement, a more ‘all around you’ experience. 

- Using the UPL handed in some body in the lower regions in comparison with the U192ETL but the bass seemed to have more speed and presence. I would describe it as ‘more tightly defined’

 

Do I prefer the ease of use of the U192ETL (upnp connected streamer with Tidal available) above the extra SQ that the UPL brings? Difficult question. I guess I am stuck with both devices anyways, because I cannot choose... 
 

Overall conclusion is that ECD offers high quality devices way above its price point.

 

[Vincent des Champs]

1 hour ago, hopkins said:

As you mention, there is still a tradeoff between convenience and SQ if you want to use streaming and/or 3rd party music apps.

 

To repeat what has been said before, the DAC is not completely immune to the source. It could be tempting to invest more in the source, but I would not recommend doing so at this point, for several reasons:

 

- the cost/benefit ratio may make not make the investment worthwhile. What makes a source "low noise" is very difficult to know. Moreover, irrespective of the quality of the source, the conversion of the source signal just before the input to the DAC does still introduce some degradation, and I do not believe any manufacturer today addresses this adequately (this point is often overlooked when considering sources). 

 

- ECD is working on improvements that will level the playing field between all sources, and should provide a "definitive" solution to all this (this is not my personal opinion...it is based on information communicated by ECD).

 

We have to be a little more patient...

 

The DAC itself is not the issue - it is the step just before, which they are addressing with their DAPI development (mentioned on DIYAudio)

 

This should not deter potential customers who are curious about the ECD "set" (DAC + source, whether the U192 or UPL). While I am sure many systems can provide great sound quality, I think ECD does bring us a little closer to real fidelity, even now, and from an "audiophile" perspective, it is an interesting experiment, for a limited investment, that can serve as an eye opener. It can help identify weaknesses in other parts of the "audio chain", which more limited sources may not allow to reveal (even though the sound may seem very pleasant, there are usually tradeoffs and limitations).

 

Irrespective of these considerations, the question of "ownership" versus "streaming" of audio files remains. I don't think there is a universal answer to this question. Use of streaming services is incredibly convenient, provided the music you are looking for is available, but one has to be prudent as there is a high variability in the quality of the files offered. One could say that this is also the case for CDs or files purchased online directly from distributors - however with streaming services, knowing the origin of the music offered is not always so simple...

To proof this, one should introduce an ultra high end source (like the  GrimmAudio MU1 player) comparing with the UPL solution.

 

My local hifi dealer is willing to accept the challenge and test it with several high end streamers (10k+ sources).

 

Even though I am still a little skeptical ECD is delivering the purest available ‘audio chain’, I am so curious! 

[Vincent des Champs]

13 hours ago, hopkins said:

ECD (Gordon) confirmed that they could not get Audirvana to play "bit-perfect" on Windows 10 either. Could be a setting, in which case they (Audirvana) are not making it obvious ! On Mac, Gordon confirmed Audirvana is bit-perfect, and JRiver on Windows with Wasapi (had not tried as my trial license expired).

 

I'll try some Linux apps later this week.

Hysolid (https://www.hysolid.com/) is claiming to be bit perfect.. maybe you can give it a try.

[Vincent des Champs]

2 hours ago, hopkins said:

 

I tried using it sone time ago and could not get it to work :(

It seems to work..

[Vincent des Champs]

3 minutes ago, hopkins said:

In addition, when we do those tests we can sometimes focus too much on details and forget to sit back and ask ouseselves: how do we feel when listening to A or B? Are we involved in the music or are we just sitting back from afar and dissecting it?... 

Basically this should be the right order: if you do not get more ‘moved’ by your improvement, then it is useless to focus on (micro) details imo. Furthermore you should be sure that other variables remain constant during assessing -in my area, at night power seems to be more clean than during the day (could also be the children that are asleep by then). Closing your eyes during sessions helps a lot for focus.

 

In the end it is and stays a personal experience and man is very poorly skilled when it comes to memorizing emotions in an exact way.

 

 

[Vincent des Champs]

The thing I am personally waiting for is an extensive review by a well respected hifi website including measurements and the whole she-bang.. Somehow ECDesigns is not keen on having their ‘magic’ reviewed. I asked Christiaan Punter (Dutch ex-enthusiast for ECDesigns (https://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/review/digital-reviews/spdif-dac-reviews/ec-designs-mosaic-t-dac/) to review my gear but the relationship with the bros. Brown has cooled down for some reason, so no more interest from Christiaan.

 

It seems like there’s ‘an elephant in the room’ with the Brown brothers and the review sites but I am strongly wondering why (or maybe there simply isn’t one?!).

On the other hand it is ‘cool’ to be part of a selected group that enjoys their gems.. but what if the gear is not that ‘magical’ as we all believe according to ‘professional’ reviewers? Nah, I don’t think I wouldn’t care that much..

[Vincent des Champs]

19 minutes ago, hopkins said:

Just wanted to add: If we focus on the source immunity aspect we may lose perspective of the main message: the sound quality is really good! I've also had a few friends confirm this recently, by the way. I don't think anyone who has the current U96, whether using the U192 or UPL, will be disappointed with the upgrade. 

Darn! I was hoping the SQ improvement was not more than slightly and the need to upgrade would be less acute.. Let’s plan Xmas a bit earlier this year :-)

[Vincent des Champs]

ECDesigns is aiming end of May for having their website updated and ready to deliver the first batch of PowerDACs. As already said, price point will be approx. 1100-1200 eur. 💪🏻

[Vincent des Champs]

1 hour ago, hopkins said:

 

Someone mentioned it would be sold by the end of this month. I don't think they do pre-orders. 

No pre-orders confirmed.

[Vincent des Champs]

Anyone interested in my da96etf / upl96etl/ u192etl? Send me a dm 👍🏻

[Vincent des Champs]

1 hour ago, hopkins said:

Seeing the reactions to the previous posts, I was wondering who is going to purchase a PowerDAC immediately and who is  going to wait for more feedback before they decide. Is it indescrete to ask? I am purchasing the pre-production unit I tested, BTW. I have tried, not to be too enthusiastic here and "inflate" things. In fact, I've had the opportunity to compare the powerDAC to two other respected DACs but am saving my comments for later 😁 I am looking forward to hearing what some of you will have to say after listening to it. It does not look like there will be any professional reviews anytime soon. ECD are unique in that way too 😀

Since I have sold my ECD stuff couple of weeks ago, I am refreshing the ECD website every 5 seconds looking for updates 😎.

 

 

[Vincent des Champs]

34 minutes ago, bodiebill said:

impulsively ordered!

:-)

Same here 😬

[Vincent des Champs]

40 minutes ago, opus101 said:

I'm a bit active on that thread as I design NOS DACs - 'soft bass' I would attribute to being a bit noisy in the lower frequencies. The noise could easily come from the power supply or it could be inherent in the DAC architecture itself.

I must say, having used the PowerDAC for over a week now, the lower registers seem to be more present and better outlined in comparison with the DA96. Your claim regarding electronic noise seem to fit with the "source immunity" claim made by ECdesigns.

 

Can other people relate to this..?

[Vincent des Champs]

1 minute ago, Huubster said:

Could that be due to a better defined/tight low end maybe

Thats what I am experiencing: my reference track for assessing fast/ defined bass is Rage Against The Machine - Killing In the Name (I presume you will use different tracks ;-D). PRaT is unparalleled imo. Anyways, let's give it a try in the coming listening session!

[Vincent des Champs]

 

Just now, hopkins said:

Perhaps Bodiebill can even play some piano for you :)

Only if it has been recorded in minimal 24/192 and played back via the PowerDAC!

[Vincent des Champs]

1 minute ago, tapatrick said:

Definitely not true for the Fractal DAC in my system. Must be because of some other issue in the quoted systems..

As always, the complete setup/chain is responsible for your end result. I.e. my Hegel H590 is fast as water and my speakers are of that kind that can keep up with this pace. Also they happen to be quite bass heavy (typical paper cones that are used) and tango really great with the characteristics of the PD.

[Vincent des Champs]

12 minutes ago, bodiebill said:

sources -- RPi, SOtM, Lindemann, SDTrans384 (see source immunity discussion)

Will be Rpi incl. HifiBerry HAT (digi2 pro edition), Lindemann Limetree Bridge 2

[Vincent des Champs]

35 minutes ago, hopkins said:

but my friends thought it had more detailed

You mean the Denafrips I suppose?

 

Thanks for sharing!

[Vincent des Champs]

8 hours ago, bodiebill said:

People do not know what they are missing!

People that are not familiar with ECd (large numbers - the whole world except us in the fora I would say 😉) and are curious (small numbers) will look for reviews and find none. Terminator DACs have been reviewed everywhere. But that’s the paradox with ECd: we want people to experience the DAC’s quality and try to convince them, but one the other hand, isn’t that the charm of being one of the happy few that can enjoy the ‘aurora borealis’ of sound (although the PD is not the one that beats ‘em all’)? Convincing can only be done by offering a one-on-one demo preferable in their personal setup. And that’s what the PD can do easily given it’s portability and the rbpi (for instance) as source. My neighbor is thinking to replace his newly purchased Linn Klimax DS (costing a lot) for this odd looking DIY device named the PowerDAC... In the meantime I think we have to acquiesce and simply enjoy.

 

Happy listening today!
 

[Vincent des Champs]

37 minutes ago, Varinder said:

What are the other dacs you have tried which you think beats PD

One-to-one comparisons with Linn Klimax Katalyst, internal Hegel H590 DAC and Chord Qutest - and the PD did beat them imho. Further experience with the Mola Mola Tambaqui but not having compared with the PD (and I honestly think it will be very tough competition for the PD).

 

I certainly don’t say that the PD is the best of all DACs, but I do believe it is hard to beat its price/quality ratio..

[Vincent des Champs]

I think we can conclude as follows:

- The PD plays way beyond its pricepoint.
- PD sounds differently in all setups and the source/ power/ cabling does matter in some aspects (ergo we cannot say it is 100% source independent and that is no shame at all).

- The sound character of the PD is slightly ‘dark’, ‘warm’ or ‘analog’ — I think we all mean the same. Is this a bad thing? Absolutely not, this is why many of us like the PD so much.

- As always the hifi hobby is matching all components until your ‘favourite dish’ has been cooked. And everbody has a different taste, don’t we all?

 

I rest my case.

 

But I love to try some different dishes every now and then, also the French cuisine 😍. What a richness!