ECdesigns

[Superdad]

10 hours ago, yogibear said:

A single channel plays here in a short clip:

 

Your YouTube compressed audio sounds great on my laptop speakers! 

 

I honestly do not understand how anyone expects room recorded (or even direct wire recorded) files of audio chains to be informative in any way.

@hopkins (and others) post recordings that are DAC output>speakers in room>microphone>microphone preamp>A/D converter.  Someone downloads and listens to the file though their own DAC>headphones or speakers.  

What is to learn from that? Even comparisons are nonsense.

 

It reminds me of manufacturers running television advertisements for their 4K displays (sometimes side-by-side with other brands or technology)--while the audience is watching that on their own inferior sets (or on a mobile phone) at home. It is silly!

 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

26 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

Your YouTube compressed audio sounds great on my laptop speakers! 

 

I honestly do not understand how anyone expects room recorded (or even direct wire recorded) files of audio chains to be informative in any way.

@hopkins (and others) post recordings that are DAC output>speakers in room>microphone>microphone preamp>A/D converter.  Someone downloads and listens to the file though their own DAC>headphones or speakers.  

What is to learn from that? Even comparisons are nonsense.

 

It reminds me of manufacturers running television advertisements for their 4K displays (sometimes side-by-side with other brands or technology)--while the audience is watching that on their own inferior sets (or on a mobile phone) at home. It is silly!

 

 

I had the same reaction as you initially, but you can tell some things from a video. After all, it is a recording, like any other, not "studio quality", but small portable recorders are surprisingly sensitive. 

 

I would never buy equipment based on videos, that is nonsense.

 

In the two recordings I posted,  differences can be heard, which is already a piece of information, and those difference heard on the recording are consistent with what can be heard in the room (which is perfectly normal).  Differences between speakers will be even more obvious, as you will soon find out (when I post other videos!). 

[fas42]

You can tell a lot from YouTube clips - there are many channels by individuals who record sometimes dozens of rigs at an audio show, say; and many of those setups sound pretty damn awful, . Having been in person at shows where similar systems are working, I can easily hear the very same deficiencies in the performance of those audio combos as I did when I witnessed them live.

 

If someone complains about a peculiar noise in his Ferrari while driving, and records it, to play back to a mechanic later, does he need a recording setup of of a quality standard equivalent to that of his car, before the mechanic has any chance of hearing what the owner is complaining about?

 

And, if someone complains that a vinyl record is noisy, and the needle jumps too easily, can the record store say, "Well, you have to play it on an extremely high quality LP audio setup, before you can make such assertions!"

[Rexp]

12 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

Your YouTube compressed audio sounds great on my laptop speakers! 

 

I honestly do not understand how anyone expects room recorded (or even direct wire recorded) files of audio chains to be informative in any way.

@hopkins (and others) post recordings that are DAC output>speakers in room>microphone>microphone preamp>A/D converter.  Someone downloads and listens to the file though their own DAC>headphones or speakers.  

What is to learn from that? Even comparisons are nonsense.

 

It reminds me of manufacturers running television advertisements for their 4K displays (sometimes side-by-side with other brands or technology)--while the audience is watching that on their own inferior sets (or on a mobile phone) at home. It is silly!

 

Maybe your hearing is at fault?

Can you tell which is the digital source playing in this vid?

 

[Superdad]

5 minutes ago, Rexp said:

Maybe your hearing is at fault?

Oh give me a break!

 

5 minutes ago, Rexp said:

Can you tell which is the digital source playing in this vid?

Not on the 4mm micro-speaker of the iPad I just watched it on.  

 

Boy you all seemed to miss my point.  Comparing DACs via acoustic recordings played back through some other DAC is pointless superimposition. As useful as judging a new 4K OLED TV by watching a demonstration of it on an old CRT.

[Rexp]

12 hours ago, hopkins said:

 

I had the same reaction as you initially, but you can tell some things from a video. After all, it is a recording, like any other, not "studio quality", but small portable recorders are surprisingly sensitive. 

 

I would never buy equipment based on videos, that is nonsense.

 

In the two recordings I posted,  differences can be heard, which is already a piece of information, and those difference heard on the recording are consistent with what can be heard in the room (which is perfectly normal).  Differences between speakers will be even more obvious, as you will soon find out (when I post other videos!). 

Feel free to repost those clips without names to see if we can pick the Lavardin. I certainly wouldnt be buying that amp with the PowerdacS based on your recording.

 

[Rexp]

3 minutes ago, Superdad said:

Oh give me a break!

 

Not on the 4mm micro-speaker of the iPad I just watched it on.  

 

Boy you all seemed to miss my point.  Comparing DACs via acoustic recordings played back through some other DAC is pointless superimposition. As useful as judging a new 4K OLED TV by watching a demonstration of it on an old CRT.

So you can't tell a difference? How about with Hopkins clips, any difference?

[yogibear]

Please take my recordings with a pinch of salt. They may or may not give you an idea of the tonality and frequency extension. 
 

Even with proper recorded clips we only hear them on our phones/ laptops / iPads NOT on the actual speakers being played. But then what is a better option ?  Of course in person listening which is not always possible. 
 

One may choose to rely on one’s worded reviews.

 

However Power DAC R did give me the comfort of moving ahead and compare different amps and speaker setups with ease and no more worry about DAC optimization…

 

I was always very keen to try a small OB LA and ECDesigns OB gave me the confidence to try one. I did with whatever drivers I had in hand and I know it’s “blasphemous” according to audio books but small four driver array seemed to be forgiving in some acoustic aspects. Here it is:

 

 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

@Superdad no one is claiming that a YouTube recording made with a phone and viewed on a laptop is going to reproduce accurately the sound heard by the listener in the room... But it may give an idea of some aspects. 

 

My Tascam recorder is pretty good, and picks up a lot of details. If the two amplifiers I recorded, near field, had vastly different "dynamics" and you could hear it in the room, then I can assure you that the recording would reflect that and played back with decent headphones, for example, you would be able to hear it. 

 

You can hear with the recording differences. The Lavardin amplifier is clearly less precise, introduces more distortion. Of course, if you listen to the two recordings on your phone the differences may be lost. 

 

[yogibear]

24” x 45” with 18” side baffle along the side walls. Mounted on 25mm thick black granite slab, polished on all edges, and top. Has plastic buffer feet for easy toe in. All 8” FR with nearly 95dB sensitivity and each 8 ohms. Top two and bottom wires in series, and then parallel = 7.2 DCR 

 

FRs from Top to bottom:
HF extension decreases, Qts decreases a bit, Fs decreases as well.

Top to Bottom: National FR, Calrad, Betsy, JBL Le8T

 

 Next plan: wire them all in parallel….. amp needs OPT swap… awaiting them.
 

May be some day soon, PDS and same set of speakers to compare… (Till I gather my choice of four pairs of identical FR)

 

Crazy experiment but with some tracks the impression is shocking…. I can safely say 17k to 50hz… ( more optimization pending before I measure these)

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

2 hours ago, yogibear said:

I was always very keen to try a small OB LA and ECDesigns OB gave me the confidence to try one. I did with whatever drivers I had in hand and I know it’s “blasphemous” according to audio books but small four driver array seemed to be forgiving in some acoustic aspects.

 

If those 4 drivers have similar characteristics it may give you a good idea of the type of sound you could achieve with ECD's OB design. 

 

The TangBand driver which they use is interesting because it is has a relatively flat response (unlike a lot of full range) and it works well in an array. It seems to me to be pretty detailed as well, with little distortion (to my ears). I was a little skeptical at first, and hesitant to try it, but I am glad I did. 

 

Having only used it briefly in less than ideal conditions I will have to confirm my initial impressions in the coming weeks. 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

On 2/18/2022 at 8:52 AM, hopkins said:

If the two amplifiers I recorded, near field, had vastly different "dynamics" and you could hear it in the room, then I can assure you that the recording would reflect that and played back with decent headphones, for example, you would be able to hear it.

 

Just wanted to add that the dynamic range of the two recordings can be compared and I believe they are identical. Recordings may be imperfect but they are certainly not adding "dynamics"! This debunks the idea that the powerDAC-S itself does not have "bass and treble" (which is preposterous) or has "dynamics" issues. The dynamic range of that piano piece is not a problem and at a volume level of 11 out of 12 it fills up my room (50 m2) nicely. We would have to perform the same test on a track that has much wider dynamic range, but then you are probably going to have issues with volume simply getting too loud in a typical living room (maybe not in an extremely  large listening room...).  Regardless, to reach high volume levels you do need more sensitive speakers, that is obvious. I clearly stated that a few of my albums that are recorded with very low volume do not play loud enough. 

 

I will try and find dealers in Paris with speakers in the 95db range and take the powerDAC-S for a spin, if they are interested in listening to it (which they should be). If that works out, I will take some measurements with a variety of sample tracks so that people can get a better idea of what range of speakers are suitable.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

Open baffle are back with a vengeance

 

 

Libertango by Gary Burton recorded with my Tascam DR-100  MKIII: https://storage.googleapis.com/cloudplayer/samples/Libertango.wav

Feel the vibes ? 

Local file, played from my NUC with MPD. No fancy power supplies, no optimized software, no nothing :)

 

[Norton]

1 hour ago, hopkins said:

Open baffle are back with a vengeance

One thing I wondered  about these, as there’s no enclosure why do they need to be so wide, and with the drivers mounted to one side?

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

2 minutes ago, Norton said:

One thing I wondered  about these, as there’s no enclosure why do they need to be so wide, and with the drivers mounted to one side?

 

I do not have the answer to that question.I asked John Brown whether I could reduce the size and he answered it could change the sound. Since I like the way they sound as is, I did not insist. 

 

The speakers are big and heavy. I fitted small wheels on a bottom board and plan on installing some kind of foldable arms so that I can move them around and store them easily in another room without taking too much space. I do not plan on keeping them all the time in my living room, but am glad I have the option of listening to them when I want to because the sound is pretty damn good! 

 

 

[fas42]

2 hours ago, hopkins said:

Libertango by Gary Burton recorded with my Tascam DR-100  MKIII: https://storage.googleapis.com/cloudplayer/samples/Libertango.wav

Feel the vibes ?

 

 

Indeed I did, ... good to see you back in action.

 

What stood out was the tonality of the violin, the bite of the piano accordion, the space around the piano - this happens because the waveform is correctly reproduced; and the whole thing just works ...

[Rexp]

5 hours ago, hopkins said:

Open baffle are back with a vengeance

 

 

Libertango by Gary Burton recorded with my Tascam DR-100  MKIII: https://storage.googleapis.com/cloudplayer/samples/Libertango.wav

Feel the vibes ? 

Local file, played from my NUC with MPD. No fancy power supplies, no optimized software, no nothing :)

 

I preferred the sound from your previous digital set up, this is a tad laboured.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

3 hours ago, Rexp said:

I preferred the sound from your previous digital set up, this is a tad laboured.

 

The system has not changed, only the room, the position of the sprakers in the room, the recording position and level (which is slightly too high in this recording). The sound may also slightly change as the speakers break in. All these factors can significantly alter the sound, but I believe the overall signature has not changed (at least not to my ears). A friend is coming today and we will try different speaker placement. I will give his feedback. 

 

If you have a "request" for a track available on Qobuz I can record it later this week. In spite of its inherent limits, it is fun to make these recordings and share them. Iy would be netter of course to get more feedback from listening sessions, and this will hopefully come soon. 

[yogibear]

7 hours ago, Norton said:

One thing I wondered  about these, as there’s no enclosure why do they need to be so wide, and with the drivers mounted to one side?

I wonder how wide are these ? Haven’t looked up ECDesigns website. The drivers are off centers to avoid peaks / dips in Open Baffles. I prefer to centre the drivers on front baffle and add a side baffle on one side which off centers the drivers (as per OB acoustic rule) and also reduces the front baffle width. And this also helps in better low end, giving full bodied sound and warmth to the vocals. 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

26 minutes ago, yogibear said:

I wonder how wide are these ? Haven’t looked up ECDesigns website. The drivers are off centers to avoid peaks / dips in Open Baffles. I prefer to centre the drivers on front baffle and add a side baffle on one side which off centers the drivers (as per OB acoustic rule) and also reduces the front baffle width. And this also helps in better low end, giving full bodied sound and warmth to the vocals. 

 

They are 60 cm wide. 

I should take some measurements (frequency response) of the speakers. 

 

[yogibear]

6 minutes ago, hopkins said:

 

They are 60 cm wide. 

I should take some measurements (frequency response) of the speakers. 

 

That’s pretty fine, 24 inches wide for 8” drivers. I added another 18” deep side baffles on one side, keeping all drivers centered.

 

Before you measure them, toe in them at your listening position for optimal sonics and measure them centered at your listening position at ear height. Measurements at any other location would be misleading. 

[yogibear]

@hopkins Though I do consider the OB designed by ECDesigns for PDS to be very ingenious and well mated but if you can try and are interested, there are two drivers well suited for single driver duty in Open Baffle, perfect to be driven by PDS and who knows, may even supersede the OB array. The drivers are pretty high dB (97 and 101) and with wide frequency response in both the ends. 
 

https://www.fane-international.com/view-product/SOVEREIGN-12-250TC

 

https://www.fane-international.com/view-product/SOVEREIGN-15-300TC

 

I have played both and can suggest the baffle dimensions. 

 

 

 

[Rexp]

2 hours ago, hopkins said:

 

The system has not changed, only the room, the position of the sprakers in the room, the recording position and level (which is slightly too high in this recording). The sound may also slightly change as the speakers break in. All these factors can significantly alter the sound, but I believe the overall signature has not changed (at least not to my ears). A friend is coming today and we will try different speaker placement. I will give his feedback. 

 

If you have a "request" for a track available on Qobuz I can record it later this week. In spite of its inherent limits, it is fun to make these recordings and share them. Iy would be netter of course to get more feedback from listening sessions, and this will hopefully come soon. 

Mmm,  does the track sound the same via Qobuz?

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

25 minutes ago, Rexp said:

Mmm,  does the track sound the same via Qobuz?

I'll check but I believe it does. The only differences I notice between Qobuz vs local are always explained by different masterings. I'll make another recording after having perfected the placement of the speakers. 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

14 hours ago, yogibear said:

@hopkins Though I do consider the OB designed by ECDesigns for PDS to be very ingenious and well mated but if you can try and are interested, there are two drivers well suited for single driver duty in Open Baffle, perfect to be driven by PDS and who knows, may even supersede the OB array. The drivers are pretty high dB (97 and 101) and with wide frequency response in both the ends. 
 

https://www.fane-international.com/view-product/SOVEREIGN-12-250TC

 

https://www.fane-international.com/view-product/SOVEREIGN-15-300TC

 

I have played both and can suggest the baffle dimensions. 

 

 

 

 

The Tang Band speakers placed in an array and without any filters offer a very smooth yet highly resolving, distortion free sound. 

 

A friend came by today and fell under the spell. When the speaker placement is well adjusted the sound of the open baffle surrounds the listener and the  experience is really "immersive". It is quite captivating, more so than anything I have ever heard. The experience  is "intense"!  

 

The speakers you referenced are certainly worth looking at and I assume they may prove to be more "dynamic" than the Tang Band, but perhaps at the expense of a slightly less balanced frequency response?  

 

I really hope they start selling the S model soon and we can get more feedback and perhaps recommendations for speakers that work well and do justice to the powerDAC-S. 

 

If some other speaker can improve on the sound of the open baffle, at a reasonable cost, then i would not hesitate to try them.  I am curious, for example, to hear field coil speakers, as I understand they may offer unsurpassed accuracy? 

 

I will be receiving my Audio Note speakers tomorrow (after a 4 month wait...), to replace my Davis speakers for everyday use. I will report on those as well.