Optical Network Configurations

[audiom3]

3 minutes ago, Iving said:

 

So translation 10G > 1Gb outside the PC - and before the eR - no matter what we call that process or the device involved - is complex - and a matter of trial and error? That's not my idea of a clear path! It's a pity - because I'd probably give it a whirl otherwise.

In my experience, 10Gbe > 1Gbe period. The issue boils down to compatibility and that's where the trial and error come into play. If that sounds like too much work, it's probably not for you. Nothing wrong with your stance. It's a hobby for many of us. 

[Iving]

4 minutes ago, audiom3 said:

In my experience, 10Gbe > 1Gbe period. The issue boils down to compatibility and that's where the trial and error come into play. If that sounds like too much work, it's probably not for you. Nothing wrong with your stance. It's a hobby for many of us. 

 

Where would you start if you were me?

[SQFIRST]

I can certainly understand the frustrations you may have had with your recent issues as that is not fun. Maybe after things have settled you may find that this information is not as complicated as it might seem right now.  The only clear path is usually after it is all done, unfortunately :) 

[audiom3]

4 hours ago, Iving said:

 

Where would you start if you were me?

If you mean where should you start by cleaning up your lag spikes, I have no idea.  I am not an IT professional, just a hobbyist. 

I was merely commenting on your 10G vs 1G in terms of sound quality.  I have never noted any sort of difference in terms of reliability or link speed, etc., between the two types of interfaces.

[Iving]

8 minutes ago, audiom3 said:

If you mean where should you start by cleaning up your lag spikes, I have no idea.  I am not an IT professional, just a hobbyist. 

I was merely commenting on your 10G vs 1G in terms of sound quality.  I have never noted any sort of difference in terms of reliability or link speed, etc., between the two types of interfaces.

 

The spiking problem is now located to the Network Card which means that the problem is solved.

 

But the solution involves finding a good card to replace the miscreant ... SFP. 1Gb. Probably Intel i210/i350. They're a bit out of date! I already got a great latency report using a cheapo. Maybe the SQ can be enhanced with known good components.

 

Or - pursue the 10G idea affirmed in different ways here. This wouldn't be straightforward - apparently. I should expect trial and error getting from 10G to 1Gb successfully. Yes I'm a little reluctant to invite new unknowns because I've been distracted for weeks by the spike issue.

 

I thought if you were courageous enough to say to me, "If that sounds like too much work, it's probably not for you", then you might also be generous enough to help me with a starting point. For 10G - surely - all I need is a 10G PC AIC and a device between it and my eR. Any ideas at all? Where I could start?

[audiom3]

2 hours ago, Iving said:

 

The spiking problem is now located to the Network Card which means that the problem is solved.

 

But the solution involves finding a good card to replace the miscreant ... SFP. 1Gb. Probably Intel i210/i350. They're a bit out of date! I already got a great latency report using a cheapo. Maybe the SQ can be enhanced with known good components.

 

Or - pursue the 10G idea affirmed in different ways here. This wouldn't be straightforward - apparently. I should expect trial and error getting from 10G to 1Gb successfully. Yes I'm a little reluctant to invite new unknowns because I've been distracted for weeks by the spike issue.

 

I thought if you were courageous enough to say to me, "If that sounds like too much work, it's probably not for you", then you might also be generous enough to help me with a starting point. For 10G - surely - all I need is a 10G PC AIC and a device between it and my eR. Any ideas at all? Where I could start?

I have and use two Intel X520 cards in my network. These are excellent NICs even if theyre a bit dated. The only thing they're picky about is what transceivers they accept. But there is a way around that somewhere on the web. It's strange because on my server box (TrueNAS), I am using 10G Finisars. My Win11 machine would only accept Intel transceivers. But they're made for them by Finisar, so not a big deal. 

 

Edit: found the thread on h9w to unlock an Intel X520...

 

https://forums.servethehome.com/index.php?threads/patching-intel-x520-eeprom-to-unlock-all-sfp-transceivers.24634/

[Quokka_61]

15 hours ago, Iving said:

For 10G - surely - all I need is a 10G PC AIC and a device between it and my eR. Any ideas at all? Where I could start?

What about a switch like the MikroTik CRS305-1G-4S+ in between your PC and your eR? Its operating system allows 'downgrading' the 10G SFP+ ports to 1G, and so you could connect the PC and switch by a couple of 10G transceivers, and subsequently the switch and the eR by a couple of 1G's. This is not what I have done myself, however, as I am using 10G/1G dual rate transceivers (Finisar FTLX1475D3BCV 10G/1G Dual Rate 1310nm Single Mode SFP+), an option you have reason not to employ. However, others on the forum may have hands-on experience with 'downgrading' 10G SFP+ ports, and hopefully they can offer you further guidance.

[Iving]

36 minutes ago, Quokka_61 said:

What about a switch like the MikroTik CRS305-1G-4S+ in between your PC and your eR? Its operating system allows 'downgrading' the 10G SFP+ ports to 1G, and so you could connect the PC and switch by a couple of 10G transceivers, and subsequently the switch and the eR by a couple of 1G's. This is not what I have done myself, however, as I am using 10G/1G dual rate transceivers (Finisar FTLX1475D3BCV 10G/1G Dual Rate 1310nm Single Mode SFP+), an option you have reason not to employ. However, others on the forum may have hands-on experience with 'downgrading' 10G SFP+ ports, and hopefully they can offer you further guidance.

 

Ace pointer / starting point. Many thanks 👍

 

Looking into a lot of stuff right now inc. Thunderbolt. Will post back if I discover anything noteworthy.

[Iving]

This 10G advantage - manifest in "stressed eye pattern" etc - and subjectively real to > 1 AS members ...

 

Implicit in the thread that 10G PCIe AIC Network Adapter is a possible route (although translation outside of PC into 1Gbe for eR another matter).

 

Music Player mobo has "dual Thunderbolt™ 4 Type-C ports". Would this 10G advantage be compromised via Thunderbolt route?

e.g. QNAP QNA-T310G1S adapter https://www.qnap.com/en-uk/product/qna-t310g1s

 

Amazon reviewers include:

Amazing product, makes it very easy to connect to almost any piece of switching gear. So far I've only found one SFP module it didn't care for, a GPON ONT module, but it's not something I'd need to use with any frequency. It's had no issue using various DACs and brands of multimode SFP+ modules. The unit itself gets a bit warm, but easy enough to handle with your bare hands. Unlike the GbaseT version, thankfully the SFP model doesn't have a fan so it's silent.

Works reliably out of the box (no extra drivers required) and pushes 10G with minimal fuss - using a fs.com 10GBASE-SR SFP+ and OM3 multimode fibre to a 10G switch.

I'm using this to connect a Razer Blade 2019 Advanced laptop to my 10GbE network via the Thunderbolt port and it works perfectly. I've had no problems maxing out the 10GbE network connection using a 10Gtek 10Gbase-SR SFP+ transceiver in this QNAP QNA-T310G1S adapter and connecting it to a Mikrotik CRS309 10GbE switch.

 

Summary - theoretical 10G routes out of Music Player PC are:
1. 10G PCIe AIC
2. Thunderbolt via QNAP QNA-T310G1S

 

In either case, the intermediate device between 10G SFP+ and eR might be a switch such as MikroTik CRS30x.

 

Thunderbolt a plausible means of harvesting 10G advantage? Other pros and cons of Thunderbolt?

[Quokka_61]

@Iving One word of warning when it comes to QNAP-gear in combination with optical transceivers. When you decide to go for the QNA-T310G1S, make sure to utilise transceivers that this particular adapter is known to work with. As I myself and others on this forum and elsewhere have found out the hard way, QNAP stuff is very picky when it comes to transceivers. I have got a QNAP QSW-M408-MC switch which features four ethernet / 10G SFP+ 'combo ports'. As an ethernet switch, this is just a very reliable thing. However, the transceivers that QNAP recommends as compatible with this particular switch all happened to be out of production or, for whatever reason, very difficult to get, and the two different types of Finisar transceivers I had (among which the FTLX1475D3BCV 10G/1G Dual Rate I mentioned in my previous post) simply didn't work with this switch. When I contacted the support desk of QNAP and asked them whether any firmware update was in the works to enable this switch to operate with a wider range of transceivers, I was simply referred back to their support page with outdated recommendations. This is how I got myself the MikroTik CRS305-1G-4S+ switch which accepts both types of Finisar transceivers I had just fine. So, should you choose to follow the Thunderbolt route and get yourself a QNA-T310G1S adapter (which in itself may be a nice piece of gear), first make sure the transceivers you opt for are positively known to work with this adapter.

[Iving]

18 minutes ago, Quokka_61 said:

@Iving One word of warning when it comes to QNAP-gear in combination with optical transceivers. When you decide to go for the QNA-T310G1S, make sure to utilise transceivers that this particular adapter is known to work with. As I myself and others on this forum and elsewhere have found out the hard way, QNAP stuff is very picky when it comes to transceivers. I have got a QNAP QSW-M408-MC switch which features four ethernet / 10G SFP+ 'combo ports'. As an ethernet switch, this is just a very reliable thing. However, the transceivers that QNAP recommends as compatible with this particular switch all happened to be out of production or, for whatever reason, very difficult to get, and the two different types of Finisar transceivers I had (among which the FTLX1475D3BCV 10G/1G Dual Rate I mentioned in my previous post) simply didn't work with this switch. When I contacted the support desk of QNAP and asked them whether any firmware update was in the works to enable this switch to operate with a wider range of transceivers, I was simply referred back to their support page with outdated recommendations. This is how I got myself the MikroTik CRS305-1G-4S+ switch which accepts both types of Finisar transceivers I had just fine. So, should you choose to follow the Thunderbolt route and get yourself a QNA-T310G1S adapter (which in itself may be a nice piece of gear), first make sure the transceivers you opt for are positively known to work with this adapter.

 

Thanks - very clear

 

On my mobo, Thunderbolt vs. AIC is a chipset vs. cpu-direct issue - steering me towards AIC anyway.

 

I can see some pages back in this thread the MikroTik CRS305-1G-4S+ known to work with eR by others (even if after some trials setting up) and, so, probably that is where I shall focus.

 

Thanks again for constructive ideas.

[Jud]

@Iving, I've had the Mikrotik switch in my system, but tend to prefer this one that is also inexpensive but has both 10G optical and 2.5G copper capability (in case you have other devices you want to hook up to high speed Ethernet):

 

https://www.amazon.com/QNAP-QSW-2104-2S-A-US-Ethernet-Switch/dp/B0BFC6QFRL/ref=mp_s_a_1_6?crid=1I3T0A8KHU07H&keywords=qnap+Ethernet+switch+optical+sfp%2B&qid=1707588837&sprefix=qnap+ethernet+switch+optical+sfp%2B%2Caps%2C457&sr=8-6&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.18ed3cb5-28d5-4975-8bc7-93deae8f9840

 

The Mikrotik has both switch and router capabilities and can therefore be a bit fussy to set up; the QNAP switch just works.

[Iving]

47 minutes ago, Jud said:

@Iving, I've had the Mikrotik switch in my system, but tend to prefer this one that is also inexpensive but has both 10G optical and 2.5G copper capability (in case you have other devices you want to hook up to high speed Ethernet):

 

https://www.amazon.com/QNAP-QSW-2104-2S-A-US-Ethernet-Switch/dp/B0BFC6QFRL/ref=mp_s_a_1_6?crid=1I3T0A8KHU07H&keywords=qnap+Ethernet+switch+optical+sfp%2B&qid=1707588837&sprefix=qnap+ethernet+switch+optical+sfp%2B%2Caps%2C457&sr=8-6&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.18ed3cb5-28d5-4975-8bc7-93deae8f9840

 

The Mikrotik has both switch and router capabilities and can therefore be a bit fussy to set up; the QNAP switch just works.

 

Thanks Jud

 

The need is to go from 10G at or after PC to 1Gbe for eR.

 

The MikroTik CRS305-1G-4S+ IN recommended by @Quokka_61 has 1 x RJ45 Gbe + 4 x SFP+ - crucially Quokka says "Its operating system allows 'downgrading' the 10G SFP+ ports to 1G" - which I suppose can be done because the switch is managed. If this manipulation weren't possible, the MikroTik CRS305-1G-4S+ IN might well play with the eR at its copper RJ45 port - but I am relying on the eR being able to "see" 1Gbe over fiber.

 

The pointer was great because I discovered this as well: https://www.wifi-stock.co.uk/details/mikrotik-fiber-cloud-router-switch-crs310-1g-5s-4s-in-crs310-1g-5s-4s-in.html. It has 4 x SFP+ ports *but also 5 x SFP*. I am assuming - possibly in the darkness because I am not experienced with switches - that in this switch 10G fed in to SFP+ will relay as 1G through SFP. The only downside of this PoE Managed model is that it has a fan. tbh I'd be comfortable disabling it given my minimal use.

 

My chasing down the QNAP Thunderbolt also led me to QNAP switches. My concern with your model would that it has 2.5G ports - and so they would have to be set at 1Gbe max for eR - hopefully possible because that can be done in managed settings?

 

My other use would be transfer of multi-Tb Library from my Workstation PC to Music Player. But that's much much much more secondary.

 

I don't need "inexpensive" for the right gear doing the target job with reliable competence! In my mind I am wondering whether I can go from:

PC with Gigabit SFP AIC > fiber > eR1 > copper > Device

to

PC with 10G SFP+ AIC > fiber > 10G/1G switch > fiber > eR2 > fiber still at Gigabit > eR1 > copper > Device

 

If the SQ outcome is appreciable I'm game.

 

I still have your ASUS AIC on my list :-)

[Jud]

6 minutes ago, Iving said:

 

Thanks Jud

 

The need is to go from 10G at or after PC to 1Gbe for eR.

 

The MikroTik CRS305-1G-4S+ IN recommended by @Quokka_61 has 1 x RJ45 Gbe + 4 x SFP+ - crucially Quokka says "Its operating system allows 'downgrading' the 10G SFP+ ports to 1G" - which I suppose can be done because the switch is managed. If this manipulation weren't possible, the MikroTik CRS305-1G-4S+ IN might well play with the eR at its copper RJ45 port - but I am relying on the eR being able to "see" 1Gbe over fiber.

 

The pointer was great because I discovered this as well: https://www.wifi-stock.co.uk/details/mikrotik-fiber-cloud-router-switch-crs310-1g-5s-4s-in-crs310-1g-5s-4s-in.html. It has 4 x SFP+ ports *but also 5 x SFP*. I am assuming - possibly in the darkness because I am not experienced with switches - that in this switch 10G fed in to SFP+ will relay as 1G through SFP. The only downside of this PoE Managed model is that it has a fan. tbh I'd be comfortable disabling it given my minimal use.

 

My chasing down the QNAP Thunderbolt also led me to QNAP switches. My concern with your model would that it has 2.5G ports - and so they would have to be set at 1Gbe max for eR - hopefully possible because that can be done in managed settings?

 

My other use would be transfer of multi-Tb Library from my Workstation PC to Music Player. But that's much much much more secondary.

 

I don't need "inexpensive" for the right gear doing the target job with reliable competence! In my mind I am wondering whether I can go from:

PC with Gigabit SFP AIC > fiber > eR1 > copper > Device

to

PC with 10G SFP+ AIC > fiber > 10G/1G switch > fiber > eR2 > fiber still at Gigabit > eR1 > copper > Device

 

If the SQ outcome is appreciable I'm game.

 

I still have your ASUS AIC on my list :-)

 

What gets you from SFP+ to SFP isn't a switch but transceivers, so just use SFP transceivers.

[Iving]

Just now, Jud said:

What gets you from SFP+ to SFP isn't a switch but transceivers, so just use SFP transceivers.

 

Any switch with 2 x 10G/SFP+ will do - as long as I use SFP transceiver on eR side?

[audiom3]

@Iving yes. A competent switch allows for 10G devices to communicate with 1G devices. 

 

Be careful with the CRS310. If noise is any kind of concern, don't buy that switch. The fan is crazy loud. Buy a 305 or 309 instead. Neither of those two switches have fans. They'll also negotiate from/to 10G/1G. I have a 305 and a pair of 309s in my network. All devices in my LAN connect at 1G except my Win11, TrueNAS box and ASUS router, which are 10G/SFP+.

[Jud]

6 minutes ago, Iving said:

 

Any switch with 2 x 10G/SFP+ will do - as long as I use SFP transceiver on eR side?

 

You may need 1G on the switch side as well. Might as well get another, the switch is backward compatible and they're not expensive.

[Iving]

3 minutes ago, Jud said:

You may need 1G on the switch side as well. Might as well get another, the switch is backward compatible and they're not expensive.

 

SFP transceiver both sides of switch? OK ty

 

edit: but that's a 10G switch with SFP transceivers both sides (from PC and to eR respectively). In that case wouldn't a 1Gb switch with SFP transceivers be just as suitable?

 

Perhaps I haven't followed ...

[audiobomber]

How about 10G SFP+ and fiber between the computer and qnap switch, then copper to an opticalModule Deluxe, with 1G Finisar SFP and fiber to the ER. The oMD v2 is phenomenal.

[Iving]

2 minutes ago, audiobomber said:

How about 10G SFP+ and fiber between the computer and qnap switch, then copper to an opticalModule Deluxe, with 1G Finisar SFP and fiber to the ER. The oMD v2 is phenomenal.

 

PC > fiber > copper > fiber > copper > Device!

with eR2 in second fiber leg when available

 

I'm not familiar with oMD v2, but I will look into it. ty for suggestion

[SQFIRST]

@Iving I feel responsible for throwing you into the deeper end of the networking pool with my suggestion of trying 10G. I can see that there are too many variables here that you are unfamiliar with that can potentially cause frustrations and I certainly do not wish that on anyone, especially after you have just recently gone through some networking issues. There is no harm in revisiting after you have done some further research on the networking side.

 

Please stay away from managed switches as they require a level of expertise that may not be worth the hassle. The reason I had mentioned the cheap switch is that it is unmanaged and an easy learning device to get introduced to the 10g side. There will most certainly be a learning curve with SFP/SFP+ transceiver matching, auto-negotiation breaks and lastly - more importantly - your reaction to the sound quality with every change.

You could just incorporate @Juds suggested 10G card and resume your previous journey of 1G fiber to the ER, leaving your option open to play with 10G in the future.

[Iving]

1 minute ago, SQFIRST said:

@Iving I feel responsible for throwing you into the deeper end of the networking pool with my suggestion of trying 10G. I can see that there are too many variables here that you are unfamiliar with that can potentially cause frustrations and I certainly do not wish that on anyone, especially after you have just recently gone through some networking issues. There is no harm in revisiting after you have done some further research on the networking side.

 

Please stay away from managed switches as they require a level of expertise that may not be worth the hassle. The reason I had mentioned the cheap switch is that it is unmanaged and an easy learning device to get introduced to the 10g side. There will most certainly be a learning curve with SFP/SFP+ transceiver matching, auto-negotiation breaks and lastly - more importantly - your reaction to the sound quality with every change.

You could just incorporate @Juds suggested 10G card and resume your previous journey of 1G fiber to the ER, leaving your option open to play with 10G in the future.

 

I hold you blameless!

 

Don't worry too much on my behalf. I will get my Gigabit route sorted well before I go down the 10G rabbithole!

 

I don't understand how Jud's 10G card can play with eR which must "see" 1Gb .... Ah - it's about Transceivers ... I can use any 10G card as long as I use SFP Transceivers?

[Quokka_61]

'PC > fiber > copper > fiber > copper > device' seems a bit superfluous, especially since it's often advised to use as few as possible steps in an audio chain. Connecting your PC with 10G SFP+ AIC to a SFP+ port of a 10G / 1G switch by means of a couple of 10G SFP+ transceivers, and the aforementioned switch to your eR by means of a couple of 1G SFP transceivers seems to be the more elegant route. In case you don't need any of the switch's other 10G ports, you could also opt for the 1G SFP AIC you mentioned, and go for a switch featuring 1G SFP ports only...

[SQFIRST]

2 minutes ago, Iving said:

I don't understand how Jud's 10G card can play with eR which must "see" 1Gb .... Ah - it's about Transceivers ... I can use any 10G card as long as I use SFP Transceivers?

Correct. There may be some outliers that do not play well but for most part, yes.

 

For clarity,

You were here:

 

And we had discussed heading here:

I left the same AOC that you referenced, in both legs, but you will not need 7M in both places. The AOC is actually meant for 10G so your first leg will be taken care of for sure.

 

You can opt to take a breather for now and just replace the bad card with a 10g card to have options and not do any further changes.

 

[Iving]

11 minutes ago, SQFIRST said:

Correct. There may be some outliers that do not play well but for most part, yes.

 

For clarity,

You were here:

 

And we had discussed heading here:

I left the same AOC that you referenced, in both legs, but you will not need 7M in both places. The AOC is actually meant for 10G so your first leg will be taken care of for sure.

 

You can opt to take a breather for now and just replace the bad card with a 10g card to have options and not do any further changes.

 

 

Yes

 

In Fig. 1 - the PEX1000SFP2 is rogue and must be replaced. I was struck by the 10G-AOC I was using in lieu of SM. I can replace "rogue" with a Gigabit Card - including the cheapo with the extraordinarily good latency performance - and still use 10G-AOC. Or I can use SM with the Gigabit Card. Or - I can get a 10G Card - which might be a form of future-proofing - but then I would have to use SFP Transceivers. The eR would not recognise a 10G card thru a 10G-AOC Cable.

 

In Fig. 2 - Yes - the switch is the variable in play last few posts. I am digesting some of the things I have learned. I realise 10G-AOC could go on the PC side of the switch. I don't see how the 10G-AOC could go on the eR Side. Even if the the switch had SFP port like CR310. Even in that case - a little birdie told me to use SFP on the eR side.