Optical Network Configurations

[SQFIRST]

Having just recently been affected by this, just wanted to reiterate the significance of optical cable bends with regards to audio. One of my duplex fiber cables had twisted itself into a small loop and this caused the audio to sound washed out. Hard to believe this can have such an impact but by just straightening the loop out things changed for the better.

 

In short, if using optical it will save time and frustration to double check for tight bends in the run and fix those first.

[jabbr]

21 hours ago, SQFIRST said:

Having just recently been affected by this, just wanted to reiterate the significance of optical cable bends with regards to audio. One of my duplex fiber cables had twisted itself into a small loop and this caused the audio to sound washed out. Hard to believe this can have such an impact but by just straightening the loop out things changed for the better.

 

In short, if using optical it will save time and frustration to double check for tight bends in the run and fix those first.

Use corning 'ClearCurve" bend insensitive fiber 

[SQFIRST]

Thanks @jabbr, I was using corning but apparently not the clearcurve type. I will replace them.

[TRHH]

These are the new switches I am currently looking at:

• HPE - Aruba Instant On 1930 8G Switch (JL680A#ABB)
• QNAP - QSW-2104-2S
• ZyXEL - XGS1010-12

It would be great if anybody knows if they work with FTLF1318P3BTL.

 

Thanks 

 

Torben

[audiom3]

1 hour ago, TRHH said:

These are the new switches I am currently looking at:

• HPE - Aruba Instant On 1930 8G Switch (JL680A#ABB)
• QNAP - QSW-2104-2S
• ZyXEL - XGS1010-12

It would be great if anybody knows if they work with FTLF1318P3BTL.

 

Thanks 

 

Torben

i do not have firat-hand experience with those mentioned but I will add that my 1318s have worked with every switch I have tried them in. Several from Mikrotik, QNAP, EtherRegen, Sonore Optical Module and a few  inexpensive, generic switches off of Amazon.  

[Quokka_61]

On 3/28/2024 at 6:21 PM, TRHH said:

These are the new switches I am currently looking at:

• HPE - Aruba Instant On 1930 8G Switch (JL680A#ABB)
• QNAP - QSW-2104-2S
• ZyXEL - XGS1010-12

It would be great if anybody knows if they work with FTLF1318P3BTL.

 

Thanks 

 

Torben

 

I haven't used any of these switches, but what I do know is that QNAP switches are very finicky when it comes to the transceivers they work with. I have experienced this with the QNAP QSW-M408-4C which, while being a very sturdy and reliable switch with hardly any downtime over the last 5-6 years, stubbornly refused to work with either the Finisar FTLX1475D3BCV 10G/1G Dual Rate 1310nm Single Mode or the FTLX1475D3BTL 10G 1310nm Single Mode of the same brand. When I contacted QNAP's helpdesk to ask whether any firmware update was in the works to make this switch work with a larger variety of optical transceivers, I was referred to the compatibility list for this switch. Problem with this list was that the transceivers which were mentioned as being compatible, were either out of production or impossible to get for reasonable prices. This is why I gave up on this particular switch as part of my fiber network, and installed a MikroTik CRS305-1G-4S+, which happily accepted both my Finisar transceivers. So, if you opt for the QNAP QSW-2104-2S, you're well advised to check its compatibility list (https://www.qnap.com/en/compatibility/?model=534&category=26) and make sure that the recommended transceivers are actually available for sale. For starters, the FTLF1318P3BTL you referred to isn't featuring on the compatability list, so you may have to do some further digging.

[jabbr]

3 hours ago, Quokka_61 said:

 

I haven't used any of these switches, but what I do know is that QNAP switches are very finicky when it comes to the transceivers they work with. I have experienced this with the QNAP QSW-M408-4C which, while being a very sturdy and reliable switch with hardly any downtime over the last 5-6 years, stubbornly refused to work with either the Finisar FTLX1475D3BCV 10G/1G Dual Rate 1310nm Single Mode or the FTLX1475D3BTL 10G 1310nm Single Mode of the same brand. When I contacted QNAP's helpdesk to ask whether any firmware update was in the works to make this switch work with a larger variety of optical transceivers, I was referred to the compatibility list for this switch. Problem with this list was that the transceivers which were mentioned as being compatible, were either out of production or impossible to get for reasonable prices. This is why I gave up on this particular switch as part of my fiber network, and installed a MikroTik CRS305-1G-4S+, which happily accepted both my Finisar transceivers. So, if you opt for the QNAP QSW-2104-2S, you're well advised to check its compatibility list (https://www.qnap.com/en/compatibility/?model=534&category=26) and make sure that the recommended transceivers are actually available for sale. For starters, the FTLF1318P3BTL you referred to isn't featuring on the compatability list, so you may have to do some further digging.

 

This is exactly the type of feedback this thread is intended for!

 

Yep a switch is only guaranteed to work with SFP modules on its compatibility list.

[jabbr]

On 3/28/2024 at 12:26 PM, SQFIRST said:

Thanks @jabbr, I was using corning but apparently not the clearcurve type. I will replace them.

There are all sorts of network debugging software in linux that will give you statistics on actual transmission rates, number of packlets that need to be transmitted etc.

 

netstat is popular and I use

 

I can tell you that if you are seeing problem at 10Gbe that those will be much much worse at 100Gbe even though you aren't needing the full data rate. I have no idea if these retries commonly affect audio, but who knows. Network tuning in linux can be an art form!

[audiophilac]

I have been using HP JL683A 24 Port switch with FTLX1475D3BTL.

I tested fcbg110sd, works. network is stable. howevver the status LED flashes amber, in the web GUI prints unsupported SFP inserted.

[TRHH]

THX all :-)

 

As I don't want to replace my FTLF1318P3BTL let me rephrase the question:

 

• What 8-10-12 port (LAN) + 2 SFP port switch will work with FTLF1318P3BTL?

 

Thanks

 

Torben

[audiom3]

2 minutes ago, TRHH said:

THX all :-)

 

As I don't want to replace my FTLF1318P3BTL let me rephrase the question:

 

• What 8-10-12 port switch will work with FTLF1318P3BTL?

 

Thanks

 

Torben

Mikrotik CRR309 and CRS310 worked for me. I also have a cheapie from Binardat that works fine (currently in use w/ a 1318 transceiver). I don't see it for sale any longer though but there were several clones on Amazon at the time I purchased it. Just differing name badges.

I just noticed that the above Mikrotiks are claiming 1G switches now and not 10G? That's a strange move if true. 

[jabbr]

On 2/21/2024 at 12:24 PM, SQFIRST said:

As someone that uses the X1 daily for last couple of years I can attest to the fact that network quality does have high impact, regardless of buffer or any inbuilt isolation. I wish that it were not the case but it took some effort to get to the sound that I like.

 

Examples:
Roon sounds totally different running through a 10G segment. Without 10G the 1G sound is frankly unlistenable to my ears.
Control point and background traffic still matters. There is some background network activity taking place even with audio being buffered that has impact. This is similar to removing the Lan connection and listening. To mitigate this 10G works effectively as well.

 

Whether these can be categorized as 'jitter' I don't know but there is certainly some networking aspect that still makes a difference to the X1 and the network signal. Reading feedback on network issues from the others on here they seem very similar.

Let me respond to this:

 

Sure! It is possible that upsteam jitter is blocked by a 10Gbe segment and doesn't have the same electrical impact on the endpoint. This isn't just clock jitter rather the "eye pattern" which doesn't pass upstream noise by specification. There's been a ton of speculation (including by myself) about why this might be the case, we just don't have electrical measurements.

 

10Gbe might be the "sweet spot" because although the "jitter" goes down with even higher network speeds, there is also packet timing. Higher network speeds mean that packets take up less of the total bandwidth but I've also seen retries go up substantially and tuning the network can be a black art form. My last segment is 10g so ... meh life is short and my hearing isn't able to detect a difference.

 

But *yes* is people generally hear an improvement at 10G then that does suggest netwok jitter may matter though I can't give a very firm explanation.

 

I *have* considered bursting a song at 100G during say the pause between songs so that the network isn't actually active during playback on the DAC but that would be a lot of work for a theory.

[barrows]

@SQFIRST, as you have the  X-1, a 1Gb device, I assume when you reference using 10 Gb hardware you are talking about using 10 Gb hardware but running it at 1 Gb, at least to the X-1, right?  Are you saying you run other Network links at 10 Gb, and only the final link to the X-1 at 1 Gb?

I am considering trying some 10 Gb capable hardware, but running at 1 Gb, as I am interested...  also to consider is that the Sonore opticalModule Deluxe, which provides the fiber link to my endpoint uses a very good clock (a better clock than what I have seen in 10 Gb commercial hardware), so I also wonder if jitter is the source of the "problem" you hear with 1 Gb hardware then perhaps that "problem" would not be present with a well designed piece of hardware with a very low phase noise clock, even though it nominally is 1 Gb (oM-D).

[SQFIRST]

On 4/3/2024 at 2:08 PM, jabbr said:

This isn't just clock jitter rather the "eye pattern" which doesn't pass upstream noise by specification.

 

On 4/3/2024 at 2:08 PM, jabbr said:

My last segment is 10g

 

@jabbr thank you for your thoughts on that. It makes sense. Combined with the post from @barrows I should clarify how I am using 10G and my experience of the subsequent benefits.

My last audio segment to the Lumin X1 is 1G optical as that provides the best network isolation as the Lumin has an SFP port. My audio does NOT use USB so network connection is the final digital connection. There is no further digital optimization possible such as with a DDC or USB audio device. All further enhancements are only at the DAC level and otherwise analog in my setup. You can understand the emphasis on network quality in my case and also note the unique nature of streamer DAC setup.

The benefits I derive from the 10G protocol is from using a Mikrotik CRS 305-1G-4S for just the optical 10G connections, to centralize switching at 10G speed, thereby gaining the benefits of 'fill in this space with your choice of technical understanding'. Router, Servers and audio segment all connect at 10G. There is no use of 1G in this switch and no dropping of rate using a dual rate SFP+. Everything autonegotiates to 10G for the core switching. On the opposite ends of each connection I have 10G switches that connect components with 1G copper.

If I were to remove the 10G connections, thereby connecting all devices at 1G instead, the sound becomes less enjoyable immediately. I am including uPnp as well as Roonserver and NAS media. @jabbr has the unique limitation of not using 1G connections in a manner where such tests can be conducted otherwise this would be more apparent to them.

@barrows I do appreciate you sharing the benefits of a higher quality 1G device, as well as your thoughts on possible iitter impact,  and while I have not used the OMD I have researched enough to understand its benefits. I use the EtherRegen with an external clock going from it's B-side copper to A-side optical to the Lumin. 

 

 

[dbastin]

2 hours ago, SQFIRST said:

 

 

@jabbr thank you for your thoughts on that. It makes sense. Combined with the post from @barrows I should clarify how I am using 10G and my experience of the subsequent benefits.

My last audio segment to the Lumin X1 is 1G optical as that provides the best network isolation as the Lumin has an SFP port. My audio does NOT use USB so network connection is the final digital connection. There is no further digital optimization possible such as with a DDC or USB audio device. All further enhancements are only at the DAC level and otherwise analog in my setup. You can understand the emphasis on network quality in my case and also note the unique nature of streamer DAC setup.

The benefits I derive from the 10G protocol is from using a Mikrotik CRS 305-1G-4S for just the optical 10G connections, to centralize switching at 10G speed, thereby gaining the benefits of 'fill in this space with your choice of technical understanding'. Router, Servers and audio segment all connect at 10G. There is no use of 1G in this switch and no dropping of rate using a dual rate SFP+. Everything autonegotiates to 10G for the core switching. On the opposite ends of each connection I have 10G switches that connect components with 1G copper.

If I were to remove the 10G connections, thereby connecting all devices at 1G instead, the sound becomes less enjoyable immediately. I am including uPnp as well as Roonserver and NAS media. @jabbr has the unique limitation of not using 1G connections in a manner where such tests can be conducted otherwise this would be more apparent to them.

@barrows I do appreciate you sharing the benefits of a higher quality 1G device, as well as your thoughts on possible iitter impact,  and while I have not used the OMD I have researched enough to understand its benefits. I use the EtherRegen with an external clock going from it's B-side copper to A-side optical to the Lumin. 

 

 

Hi, Just chipping in some ideas to consider.

 

Apparently SFP modules generate noise, so you might get a better result with wired connection from ER Side B to the X1.  Side B is the better, and some ethernet cables may perform better than fibre.  Try a gpod quality Cat 6a UTP with Shakti on lines on each end.

 

You might find setting the CRS 305s to 1G or 100MB beneficial.

 

I have found Synergistic Research ECT beneficial inside CRS305, on the switch chip, II am yet to try on the SFP cages. And placing it on Synergistic Research Tranquility POD quite worthwhile.

 

I don't think it's 10G speed that is important, it is the lower jitter benefit of the 10G spec.

[audiom3]

10 hours ago, dbastin said:

Hi, Just chipping in some ideas to consider.

 

Apparently SFP modules generate noise, so you might get a better result with wired connection from ER Side B to the X1.  Side B is the better, and some ethernet cables may perform better than fibre.  Try a gpod quality Cat 6a UTP with Shakti on lines on each end.

Alex Crespi (UpTone Audio) assured me that both sides (A and B) of the moat are identical in data, clocking and power performance.

[dbastin]

30 minutes ago, audiom3 said:

Alex Crespi (UpTone Audio) assured me that both sides (A and B) of the moat are identical in data, clocking and power performance.

Perhaps that is not the whole story.

In my recent trials, Side B is superior.  I gather many woukd have similar observations.

[Philippe Bill]

have you tested a Direct Attach Cable ?? (just before the driver or the last switch)
>>>the Melco version:
https://the-ear.net/review-hardware/melco-c1-d20-sfp-a-direct-connection/
>>>the FS version:
https://www.fs.com/de-en/products/40160.html

[dbastin]

12 minutes ago, Philippe Bill said:

have you tested a Direct Attach Cable ?? (just before the driver or the last switch)
>>>the Melco version:
https://the-ear.net/review-hardware/melco-c1-d20-sfp-a-direct-connection/
>>>the FS version:
https://www.fs.com/de-en/products/40160.html

Not sure who you are asking.  I haven't tried DAC cable and I suspect it might only be good with Taiko.

[SQFIRST]

Thanks for trying to help with suggestions everyone but my post was less about experiencing issues and more about how I was able to address them with the use of 10G. This is just one of the many solutions to explore and what we were discussing recently. The reason that I elaborated on my connections was to respond to the inquiry from @barrows about how I am using 10G as well as to appreciate @jabbr's reliable and consistent assistance with technical answers on the subject.

Each setup with have it's unique limitations but the basics have to be covered first, which includes power domain separation and isolation. My Lumin X1 is power isolated and separated from everything so optical is the best connection as any use of copper will break the power related implementation.

 

@dbastin congrats on finally getting the B-side benefits and it's good to hear it is working for you.

 

[TheFlash]

7 hours ago, dbastin said:

Not sure who you are asking.  I haven't tried DAC cable and I suspect it might only be good with Taiko.

You might be right. I heard the hype and tried one; vs SFP-optical-SFP, I was massively underwhelmed.

[Assisi]

10 hours ago, dbastin said:

Not sure who you are asking.  I haven't tried DAC cable and I suspect it might only be good with Taiko.

I have tried a DAC cable between SoTM and Melco switches at the beginning of my network before 2x Nordost and 3x Waversa. Supposedly the DAC was the one used by Taiko.  In my setup I considered the Cisco genuine AOC superior. I am interested in trialing the Melco DAC cable when I can get a loan of one.  Soon.

John

[TheFlash]

6 hours ago, Assisi said:

I have tried a DAC cable between SoTM and Melco switches at the beginning of my network before 2x Nordost and 3x Waversa. Supposedly the DAC was the one used by Taiko.  In my setup I considered the Cisco genuine AOC superior. I am interested in trialing the Melco DAC cable when I can get a loan of one.  Soon.

John

 

2 Nordost and 3 Waversa what?

[dbastin]

2 hours ago, TheFlash said:

2 Nordost and 3 Waversa what?

Pretty sure its 2 QNET and Waversa WCore, WRouter and EXT Reference.

[Assisi]

57 minutes ago, dbastin said:

Pretty sure its 2 QNET and Waversa WCore, WRouter and EXT Reference.

Almost correct.  I do not count my Waversa filter reference as a switch.  The third switch and last in the network before the Filter is a Waversa Hub3.  On its own I was not overly impressed.  When it is connected though to the Filter something special happens.  There is a synergy between the two components.

 

In a review the reviewer said

 "   the WSmarthub brings changes to the overall structure, the W LAN-EXT1 can be said to express the
sophistication of the interior of the structure."

 

This is a bit off topic.  My initial post was about a DAC cable Vs the Cisoc AOC and where I  have the two AOC connected switches in my network.  Plus my interest in the Melco DAC cable.

 

John