Optical Network Configurations

[Mike Rubin]

I have searched through this 100 page thread and haven’t found anything that provides direct guidance on my inquiry, so I will just go ahead and ask.  Forgive me if the answers are elsewhere in the thread.

 

This is my network topography:  (1).  My xfi modem/router, my Synology NAS, my NUC, and the ultraRendu that is connected to my desktop DAC all are in my basement in proximity to one another.  (2).  The NAS and NUC are connected directly to the router with copper.  (3).  The ultraRendu is connected optically to a TrendNet FMC, which is connected by optical cable to a second TrendNet FMC, which is connected to the router by copper.  (4). The router is connected by CAT 6 to a wall plate and then by CAT 6 to the rest of the house through a 48 port Netgear switch in my garage.  (5).  The garage switch connects to my EtherRegen on the main floor by copper to the wall plate and then copper from the wall plate to the EtherRegen B side.  (6). The EtherRegen is connected to my Signature Rendu SE optically from the A side.

 

I am curious about expanding my use of optical in this network.  
 

I saw this at Amazon:  

 

https://www.amazon.com/MikroTik-Router-Gigabit-Ethernet-CRS106-1C-5S/dp/B01MZEDVCV/ref=sr_1_16?crid=296MBV2ZA2VKO&keywords=mikrotik+switch&qid=1648099943&s=electronics&sprefix=mikrotik+switch%2Celectronics%2C124&sr=1-16

 

It has 5 SFP cages plus a “combo” PoE/SFP.  It has occurred to me that I could connect this to my basement modem/router by copper and then connect the NAS, the NUC, and the ultraRendu optically to its SFP ports.  The two TrendNet FMC’s could be repurposed for the NAS and NUC and I have a Sonore Optical Module that I could repurpose for the ultraRendu.  I have a couple of spare SFP’s and some extra fiber cables that should be compatible.

 

One threshold issue is how I am going to have enough electrical outlets for all the power supplies, but I think I can work that out.  If I can, here are some specific questions that I have about this proposed setup:

 

(1).  Does this sort of configuration even make sense from a sound quality perspective for the basement ultraRendu and the living room Signature Rendu SE?  
 

The former still will have a run of copper from the Optical Module and the latter still will connect to the router over CAT 6 from router to garage switch to wall plate to EtherRegen.  With that much copper remaining in the system, I wonder how much benefit there would be from the proposed optical additions.
 

(2).  Assuming this is not a crazy idea, is this the right switch for the job?  I don’t see more than a couple of references to it on this forum, although the experts here seem to like Mikrotik products in general.  If it’s not a good solution, are there other switches with three or more SFP cages that I should consider instead?

 

(3).  Assuming this is not a crazy idea and that this is an okay switch, I wonder about powering the switch.  This is advertised as PoE capable.  However, I have neither PoE capability nor a desire to have it.  It looks from the photos, though, as though the switch instead can be powered by a 12v LPS.  Unfortunately, I can’t tell what amperage is required.  I have a 12v, 2A LPS I can dedicate to this application.  Is that likely to be a decent power source for a switch of this nature?

 

(4).  Any other potential or inevitable pitfalls of which I should be aware?  
 

Thanks for any information you can provide.

 

 

[Mike Rubin]

7 hours ago, dbastin said:

In my experience that will achieve an improvement, it may be smallish but every incremental bit adds up.

 

In terms of a switch, consider CRS 305 or another SFP+.  Further, the CRS 's can be set up as router, which is what I do - its a bit tricky but I made instructions a few pages back. I have CRS 305 and it is hands down better than the Ubiquiti EdgeRouter X SFP I had because I gather the SFP+/10G spec is better than 1Gb. 

 

I also suggest try to connect to your Signature Rendu SE directly from the new switch/router rather than via the Netgear 48 port which might be passing on noise to your audio gear from many ports.  As I see it every bit of copper cod be collecting noise, so minimise the lengths of copper in the audio part of the network and instead use fibre of wifi.

 

You might find this

ISP > copper > ER or OM > fibre > router > fibre > UR SE

better than 

ISP > copper > Router > copper > ER or OM > fibre > UR SE

 

i presume your Cat 6 is UTP, theoretically that should be better than STP.

Thanks for this. I am stuck with copper in the walls as I live in a 1925-built house with lath and plaster walls and I am not having those walls opened ever again for electrical work. It was costly and a mess when I had the house rewired and cabled two years ago. I regret not running optical then, but I wasn't even aware of its existence at the time.  I could bypass the switch in the garage wall box for an individual connection to the router, but I still would be keeping the EtherRegen in the signal path because I need the conversion to optical somewhere before the rendu.  The EtherRegen seems to do a good job of minimizing upstream noise. 

 

I had a separate modem and router before xfinity lent me their xfi box, which isn't that easy to bridge, and I need wifi capability for IOT and other devices without ethernet capability.  I have ubiquiti access points on each floor but a couple of devices either need or prefer a wifi connection at the router. A simple switch makes more sense to me than dealing with a replacement router, not that the xfi router doesn't have the weirdest gui ever developed for a router. 

[Mike Rubin]

4 hours ago, dbastin said:

Hmm, in that case I suggest ...

 

ISP > copper > Router > copper > CRS SFP+/10G switch > copper > ER > fibre > SR SE

 

Also connect NAS, NUC and ultrarendu to the new switch.

 

 

This is what I visualized in my post, except that I proposed using the inexpensive CRS 106 rather than the CRS 305.  Not sure that I can see a functionality difference between the two Mikrotik products beyond the 305 being bootable into a switch OS, which seems more bespoke than the router OS for my use case….Do you know how these products differ?

[Mike Rubin]

1 hour ago, dbastin said:

I am really just following observations made by many others here on this thread about the benefits of SFP+/10G v SFP/1G.  The difference is not about comparing their functionality.  In short, and I am sure others can explain better, the specifications for the SFP+/10G is much higher standards which also happens to benefit audio (think clock quality, jitter, noise, etc).

 

I was using Ubiquiti EdgeRouter X SFP (1G), which by all accounts is quite good benefits for audio use, and did a straight swap to install the CRS 305 in its place.  Cold, with say only an hour of prior use while I configured it, the improvement was far in excess of the price difference.  I have spent lots more on other ethernet things that made much less difference.  For instance, adding the ER upstream instead of a generic FMC, or downstream for that matter, in my situation made much less difference.

 

Others here are using other CRS with copper and SFP+ ports.  It is no coincidence that AfterDark and others consider industrial grade SFP+ modules to sound best.

Thanks.  I was just planning on reusing old SFP modules if I went this route, but it sounds as though I need to invest in SFP+ to get the best from it.  Down another wallet-emptying rathole. :)

[Mike Rubin]

30 minutes ago, Quokka_61 said:

@Mike Rubin Without precisely understanding what your network topology exactly looks like, one observation. I recently acquired a MikroTik CRS305-1G-4S+ switch, and it is my understanding that its 1G ethernet port is for management purposes only. Connecting this switch over ethernet directly with my router indeed makes it possible to access the switch and fiddle with its rather intimidating array of settings, either by configuring it in SwOS or RouterOS. However, when I hook up the ethernet port of the MikroTik to an ethernet port of any of my other switches, no connection is made and hence the former doesn't become part of the network. Others may have different experiences, but for me this particular MikroTik only works as a fiber switch, and I thought this is probably something you should be aware of.

Thanks. I was wondering about the reference to “regular traffic forwarding“ on the MikroTik product page:  https://mikrotik.com/product/crs305_1g_4s_in

 

That suggested to me that, if this were connected by copper to a router, it could be used for network access by any device connected to an FMC.  Your experience suggests otherwise.

 

 I remain confused about something else:  I have plain-Jane TrendNet FMC’s that I was going to reuse in this application but they are SFP, not SFP+, and only 1 gb.  Are there comparable 10gb FMC’s that can use SFP+ modules?  I am not finding them for sale.

[Mike Rubin]

Thanks, gents, but now I am completely confused. It sounds as though the 305 can work as a simple switch with a copper connection to the network, but I now have no idea what why its SFP+ capability makes a difference in this application. Are SFP+ devices "better" for SQ when only running SFP connections? As I mentioned, I was planning to use SFP modules and FMC's that already are on hand.

[Mike Rubin]

Thanks, @barrows.  That’s helpful.  

[Mike Rubin]

19 minutes ago, litebreeze said:

Sfp vs sfp+ : using finisar 1471 modules, 10G fmcs from fs.com gave an obviously larger soundstage than the commonly found 10Gtek’s 1.25G fmcs. Compare to a (can’t remember brand) router running sfp slots, the 10G fmc again gave a wider soundstage. sfp+ modules also sound different but that is another rabbit hole to go down.

From what I can tell, fs.com no longer sells Finisar products, at least under the Finisar brand name. 

[Mike Rubin]

7 minutes ago, jabbr said:

Gulp ...

https://www.servethehome.com/mikrotik-crs504-4xq-in-a-4x-100gbe-switch-at-under-45w/

$800? Yowzer!

 

[Mike Rubin]

7 minutes ago, dbastin said:

Oh, maybe there are different versions.  I read ...The Signature Rendu SE takes fiber optic Ethernet input or cable ethernet input here ... https://www.sonore.us/Signature-Rendu-SE.html

There are two versions. I have owned both.

[Mike Rubin]

3 hours ago, MartinT said:

I now have an even better fibre solution: the Finisar FCBG110SD1C05 (this is a 5m one, different lengths are available).  It's an AOC - Active Optical Cable.  The two SFPs and cable are manufactured as a single product, effectively an SFP-fibre cable.

 

This cable outperforms even the excellent previous HP SFPs and ipolex fibre.  What I hear:

 

There is more microdetail and more texture/shape to cymbals and bells, so you can hear how they are being struck. Even 16/44 treble can be surprisingly sweet and detailed, showing how well the X26 Pro reconstruction filter in 'Gentle' mode is working. Low level studio noise comes through clearly at the start of songs.

Dynamics remain stronger and the overall 'speed' of some music, especially with rapid percussion, seems faster. Drums can seem almost machine-gun startling in their intensity.

The bass remains more prominent, both tight and deep and again with that texture that differentiates deep organ pedal notes.

Finally, a lot more soundstage has come through, giving the feeling of space around and behind the performers and the strong impression of sitting in a large void like a hall.

That's an interesting configuration that avoids SFP and cable mismatches. 

 

Your 3m length is a lot longer than I need because my fiber linked devices are right next to one another on a shelf. I could get by with a .5m version of this cable assembly, but I don't find a part number for a cable that short. I do find a 1m version but it is out of stock most places and twice as expensive as the 3m when in stock. 

 

I can get an open stock 3m version for almost a giveaway price on eBay and am tempted to experiment with one. I notice that the cable is looped and tied. Is there any danger in keeping the cable looped and tied like that when in use?  That would be the only way I could manage a 3m length. 

[Mike Rubin]

11 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 

Correct, the AOC cables are convenient when they work with both devices that they connect. There is no problem leaving the cable looped.

Thanks.  Any chance they would make an audible difference or is this likely to be chasing unicorns? I presently am using Finisar single mode and a Corning cable.

[Mike Rubin]

13 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 

Yeah the Intel devices are easier to set up. oddly it says 1xGbe SFP+ which didn't give me confidence...

 

The ARM devices are even lower power and Solid-Run has a history of devices used for audio i.e. the CuBox series. I don't know but am guessing that certain audiophile companies use at least their SOM's (little boards that hole the CPU).

 

That said both the ClearFog A88 Base and the fitlet2 sound great to me.

My Sonore devices show up as Solid Run in Fing, so I strongly suspect they are based on Solid Run hardware. 

[Mike Rubin]

2 minutes ago, audiobomber said:

I've been working hard, researching whether to replace the FMC in my system with an opticalModule Deluxe, or wait for the EtherREGEN V2.

 

Currently:

NAS > Silent Angel N8 > MC220L FMC > original EtherREGEN > exaSound PlayPoint 

 

Which will sound best in my system, replace the MC220L with an ER-V2 or oMD? In other words, do the extra circuits in the ER add anything when used purely as an FMC?

Wondering the same thing.  I could use that gigabit bandwidth. 

 

Having just tried both the gigabit original Optical Module and the gen 1 EtherRegen as FMC-only in the same spot in my system while troubleshooting some stuttering, I didn't find huge sound quality differences that made the EtherRegen indispensable in this application. I enjoyed the original Optimal Module in this application before I got the EtherRegen and could live with again, although, with an external clock and better LPS, the EtherRegen is "better."

 

If getting the Optical Module instead of the EtheRegen gets you a few bucks to apply to a better ethernet cable, that might be a decent tradeoff. 

[Mike Rubin]

53 minutes ago, lsantista said:

So the external clock also works the same way to improve the side A and fiber port? 
 

not sure why I thought it only worked on the side B out

To my ears, it makes a difference even when running from A side to A side SFP. Not huge, but enough to justify the expense. 

[Mike Rubin]

7 hours ago, Mike Rubin said:

To my ears, it makes a difference even when running from A side to A side SFP. Not huge, but enough to justify the expense. 

I hope it was clear that I meant B side to A side SFP.

[Mike Rubin]

I am late to the discussion of the Cisco cable/SFP+ combo SFP-10G-AOC2M, but now am quite confused by this thread.  

 

All of the product listings I find for that model number say the modules are SFP+, not SFP.  My understanding has been that you can use an SFP module in an SFP+ cage, but not vice versa.  

 

The Sonore products don't have SFP+ ports, so I would not expect the Cisco part to work in them, yet this thread clearly says the Cisco piece does.  

 

Am I misunderstanding the spec of the Cisco modules or is my compatability understanding what's off here? 

[Mike Rubin]

My application is between two Sonore devices, so it sounds as though I should be able to use the Cisco AOC just fine. Thanks for the confirmation. 

[Mike Rubin]

I got this part number on ebay and just installed the cable ends into the sfp cages on my Signature Rendu SE and Optical Module Deluxe.  Neither sfp clicks into place and both are just hanging loosely in the cages. More importantly, the Signature Rendu isn't getting online.

 

Did I forget to buy some other part or otherwise? Did I miss something about installing this cable? 

[Mike Rubin]

@Kal Rubinson, yes, these are SFP+ modules in SFP cages. Based on the comments above, though, I expected them to work between two Sonore devices.

 

@R1200CL, are the protection caps the brown handles on the modules? If so, no, I didn't remove them because they look securely attached to the modules. There aren't other caps that I can see. 

[Mike Rubin]

I figured out how to seat the modules properly:  put them into the cages label side down.  I have been using optical for at least five years, but this was my first experience with an SFP that inserted with the label on the bottom. 

 

Now, I am trying to get the rendu to join my network. 

[Mike Rubin]

19 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Don't leave us hanging. 🙂 Success?

Connected, yes, but not playing music.  I think that may be a Sonore firmware snag that showed up with an update a couple of days ago.  So: troubleshooting now.  😪

[Mike Rubin]

It is playing now and I already can see the virtues of the AOC.  Too early to tell if it will replace the Finisars over the long haul but it is sounding a bit less edgy on some test selections.