DSD only using DSC 1,2 or 3?

[Hiro]

Isn't passing DSD through the I2S degrading the DSD signal in any way?

 

[vortecjr]

Isn't passing DSD through the I2S degrading the DSD signal in any way?

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]18453[/ATTACH]

 

No. DSD and i2s are independent signals. You can only send DoP via i2s assuming the receiving device can decode it.

 

Jesus R

[Bill Lord]

I have two solutions that can output DSDL, DSDR and BCLK.

 

Solution #1 is a high quality USB to i2s interface that supports up to DSD512 playback. Sonore DIY USB Interface - USB to i2s interface

 

Solution #2 is the standard Rendu with i2s option and the Signature Series Rendu. Both support up to DSD512 playback. Since this is an external source I made up a receiver module to convert the LVDS signals back to TTL level.

 

Neither solution supports bit clock input as is. With USB you can use HQ Player and with the Rendu series you can only play native DSD streams via DLNA.

 

Jesus R

 

Hi- is there an option for three BNC cables that can output DSDL, DSDR and BCLK? Either DIY or special order.

[Hiro]

No. DSD and i2s are independent signals. You can only send DoP via i2s assuming the receiving device can decode it.

 

Jesus R

 

So for those who would rather send DSD via either ASIO DSD , or LH Labs' upcoming Pure DSD transmission protocol, I2S is not an option to begin with? I hope that DSC2 will have a direct DSD path that will allow to bypass I2S...

[Maldur]

Even now, DSC1 have direct DSD path and no I2S, just that path leads to Amanero, not any external connector. Amanero outputs in DSD mode pure DSD as far I know.

[vortecjr]

So for those who would rather send DSD via either ASIO DSD , or LH Labs' upcoming Pure DSD transmission protocol, I2S is not an option to begin with? I hope that DSC2 will have a direct DSD path that will allow to bypass I2S...

 

My USB receiver supports DoP and ASIO and both will produce a native DSD signal at the boards output pins. I'm not sure what LH is doing, but it will most likely be "converting" a 1 bit DSD signal to 8 bit or 32 bit for transmission over USB so calling it "pure" is misleading. BTW This is already possible on Linux so a new protocol is not needed. For example we can already stream native DSD to the iFi DSD DAC with Sonic Orbiter.

 

Finally, I contacted LH and expressed concern over them using the name PureDSD because we have a trademark claim on it. http://www.rendu.sonore.us/index9.html

 

Jesus R

[vortecjr]

Hi- is there an option for three BNC cables that can output DSDL, DSDR and BCLK? Either DIY or special order.

 

What are you trying to connect to?

 

Jesus R

[Hiro]

My USB receiver supports DoP and ASIO and both will produce a native DSD signal at the boards output pins. I'm not sure what LH is doing, but it will most likely be "converting" a 1 bit DSD signal to 8 bit or 32 bit for transmission over USB so calling it "pure" is misleading. BTW This is already possible on Linux so a new protocol is not needed. For example we can already stream native DSD to the iFi DSD DAC with Sonic Orbiter.

 

Finally, I contacted LH and expressed concern over them using the name PureDSD because we have a trademark claim on it. SONORE Rendu PureDSD DAC

 

Jesus R

 

From what I understand LH Labs are throwing out the wasteful PCM wrappers imposed by DoP, so the DAC "will receive 32 bits of 1-bit DSD samples at one time." It's great if it's already possible on Linux, but LH labs are working to introduce this capability on Mac.

 

As for the Pure DSD term, wasn't the SA Center the first to use it for their Sonoma system?

 

Super Audio Center Home

[Hiro]

Even now, DSC1 have direct DSD path and no I2S, just that path leads to Amanero, not any external connector. Amanero outputs in DSD mode pure DSD as far I know.

 

Good to know. It seems that some people still have their heads in the PCM box, that's why they insist on cramming DSD into PCM frames, I2S, etc.

[vortecjr]

From what I understand LH Labs are throwing out the wasteful PCM wrappers imposed by DoP, so the DAC "will receive 32 bits of 1-bit DSD samples at one time."

 

How is one conversation any better than the other?

 

As for the Pure DSD term, wasn't the SA Center the first to use it for their Sonoma system?

 

Super Audio Center Home

 

It seems to me that they use DSD Pure. Rather than speculate I can contact Gus and see what he says.

 

Jesus R

[Hiro]

How is one conversation any better than the other?

 

They describe the advantages of their new protocol over DoP at: Topic: PureDSD Announcement (1/1) - Geek Temple - LH Labs

[vortecjr]

Good to know. It seems that some people still have their heads in the PCM box, that's why they insist on cramming DSD into PCM frames, I2S, etc.

 

The Amanero uses DoP or ASIO via Windows and DoP via OS X and Linux. It also uses a bulk transfer method that does not support native DSD streaming under Linux.

 

Jesus R

[Hiro]

The Amanero uses DoP or ASIO via Windows and DoP via OS X and Linux.

 

But exaSound already achieved Native ASIO DSD playback on Mac, right? Do you know if they use something else than Amanero?

 

I wonder how LH Labs' solution for native DSD transmission on Mac will differ from exaSound's...

[vortecjr]

They describe the advantages of their new protocol over DoP at: Topic: PureDSD Announcement (1/1) - Geek Temple - LH Labs

 

Did he say there is jitter in USB! That jitter comes from the USB receiver itself just being present in the circuit and it is inherent to the processor used. The good receivers re-clock the signal to lower that inherent jitter and then they isolate the signal from the rest of the circuit. Here is what I think is important: 1. re-clocking, 2. isolation, 3. clean power, 4. good oscillators.

 

Jesus R

[vortecjr]

But exaSound already achieved Native ASIO DSD playback on Mac, right? Do you know if they use something else than Amanero?

 

I wonder how LH Labs' solution for native DSD transmission on Mac will differ from exaSound's...

 

I suspect that it's DoP or ASIO via Windows and DoP via OS X. They have their own hardware solution named USBPAL and it's closed source. No Linux drivers to date.

 

Jesus R

[ted_b]

Good to know. It seems that some people still have their heads in the PCM box, that's why they insist on cramming DSD into PCM frames, I2S, etc.

 

Don't lump I2S into this mix. My Signature Rendu does raw (i.e ASIO-like) DSD into my PS Audio Directstream via I2S.

[vortecjr]

Don't lump I2S into this mix. My Signature Rendu does raw (i.e ASIO-like) DSD into my PS Audio Directstream via I2S.

 

When one streams PCM (format) you are sending i2s (signal) to the device. When one streams DSD (format) you are sending DSD (signal) to the devices. The PS Audio calls their input i2s, but it can receive i2s (signal) and DSD (signal) per a pre-determined pin assignment.

 

Jesus R

[Hiro]

I suspect that it's DoP or ASIO via Windows and DoP via OS X.

 

exaSound definitely do ASIO DSD on Mac, they enabled the capability a couple of months ago.

 

http://exasound.com/Blog/tabid/74/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/155/Decibel-13--The-First-Audiophile-Player-with-Mac-OS-X-ASIO-Support.aspx

 

It remains to be seen how exactly LH Labs are going to make it, but they plan to open the solution to all software and hardware developers when it's ready, so we'll find out soon enough..

[vortecjr]

exaSound definitely do ASIO DSD on Mac, they enabled the capability a couple of months ago.

 

Decibel 1.3 - The First Audiophile Player with Mac OS X ASIO Support > exaSound Audio Design

 

That is pretty cool.

 

It remains to be seen how exactly LH Labs are going to make it, but they plan to open the solution to all software and hardware developers when it's ready, so we'll find out soon enough..

 

Should be interesting.

 

Jesus R

[Miska]

exaSound definitely do ASIO DSD on Mac, they enabled the capability a couple of months ago.

 

HQPlayer too, since last September....

[Miska]

From what I understand LH Labs are throwing out the wasteful PCM wrappers imposed by DoP, so the DAC "will receive 32 bits of 1-bit DSD samples at one time."

 

That's what iFi, DIYINHK, Matrix and Marantz/Denon have been doing for quite a while (with ASIO driver on Windows) and is supported by Linux too. They just didn't bother to do a lot of handswaving with marketing terms about it. First vendor I know to do a bit similar approach, but with 8-bit and 16-bit words is Playback Designs which has been supported on Linux since 2013 (IIRC).

 

But it certainly needs specific driver support from the OS. Good thing is that the way it is implemented by those brands it is functionally similar to ASIO in a way that software can properly auto-detect DSD support and there are no wasted USB transfer bandwidth on markers or such. And the DAC doesn't need to change the format "on the fly" like with DoP.

[Miska]

I suspect that it's DoP or ASIO via Windows and DoP via OS X. They have their own hardware solution named USBPAL and it's closed source. No Linux drivers to date.

 

Does LH use USBPAL? USBPAL is product of Swiss company RigiSystems, it has been used on Mytek Stereo192-DSD DAC and I believe also on Manhattan (AFAIK, it's been also used on Audio Research DACs). There's unofficial Linux driver for it too, but that one doesn't support DSD modes.

 

I think it was the first USB interface to support ASIO DSD...

[Miska]

Don't lump I2S into this mix. My Signature Rendu does raw (i.e ASIO-like) DSD into my PS Audio Directstream via I2S.

 

It shouldn't be called I2S in this context... I2S is pure PCM transfer, but if the hardware is flexible enough, it can share the same wires/pins for DSD too. Just like Amanero and many DAC chips do. But what goes over the wires in DSD mode doesn't have anything to do with I2S. Usually what happens is that BCLK remains the bit clock, DATA pin becomes DSDL and WCLK becomes DSDR (or vice versa). So biggest difference is that WCLK switching speed jumps from something like 44.1 kHz to 2.8 MHz since it transforms from slow word clock signal to a data signal (but OTOH, DATA slows down)...

[Miska]

Even now, DSC1 have direct DSD path and no I2S, just that path leads to Amanero, not any external connector. Amanero outputs in DSD mode pure DSD as far I know.

 

Yes, and DSC1 engages output mute and turns off the D/A section if Amanero indicates non-DSD input without mute state. So there's output only when Amanero receives proper DSD stream.

 

Amanero can naturally decode also DoP, but that limits output speed to DSD128. With ASIO you can get DSD512.

[vortecjr]

Does LH use USBPAL? USBPAL is product of Swiss company RigiSystems, it has been used on Mytek Stereo192-DSD DAC and I believe also on Manhattan (AFAIK, it's been also used on Audio Research DACs). There's unofficial Linux driver for it too, but that one doesn't support DSD modes.

 

I think it was the first USB interface to support ASIO DSD...

 

Some of the reviews on the Light Harmonic Da Vinci DAC state that it's XMOS based. I know first hand that the Mytek DACs are USBPAL. I'm not certain about Audio Research, but the rumor is that the DAC-8 uses USBPAL.

 

Jesus R