DSD only using DSC 1,2 or 3?

[vortecjr]

Yes, and DSC1 engages output mute and turns off the D/A section if Amanero indicates non-DSD input without mute state. So there's output only when Amanero receives proper DSD stream.

 

Amanero can naturally decode also DoP, but that limits output speed to DSD128. With ASIO you can get DSD512.

 

Do you have a native DSD solution for the Amanero / NAA combination?

 

Jesus R

[jabbr]

The hardware is set up for one input. You don't want to switch between these signals because the result is degradation in the signal quality.

 

BTW even with pre-assembled broads this is still a pretty big project and adding more features will only complicate things further.

 

Jesus R

 

These are digital signals, no? So a digital switch to enable DSDR/L,BCLK from one input or another should be relatively simple and not interfere with signal quality?

[vortecjr]

These are digital signals, no? So a digital switch to enable DSDR/L,BCLK from one input or another should be relatively simple and not interfere with signal quality?

 

It's my opinion that it will degrade the signal. Whether or not it matters to you is the real question....

 

Jesus R

[Miska]

Do you have a native DSD solution for the Amanero / NAA combination?

 

Yes, with networkaudiod running on Windows using the ASIO driver. But not on Linux due to lack of driver support.

[Miska]

These are digital signals, no? So a digital switch to enable DSDR/L,BCLK from one input or another should be relatively simple and not interfere with signal quality?

 

This is how I did DSD/I2S switching for CS4398 on my DCA1 design without adverse side effects:

[robbo1802]

Hi,

As you can see I am new here. I was/am considering an IFI IDSD Micro for a new portable dac/headphone amp and came across this thread when researching the IFI.

 

I was intrigued by the simplicity of the DSC1. I have had a quick look at the circuit and have a few questions. Please be patient with me as it has been some time since I have had to think about DSP or even electronics of any kind for that matter.

 

1. I have had a look at the posted jitter (phase noise, period variance - call it what you want) plot. The results are impressive with the jitter buried in the noise floor and little widening of the base of the principal. Is the noise floor shown the residual of the test instrument or the DSC1 ? Do you think there is any point in attempting to improve this result?

 

2. I noticed that the shift registers and resistors form a simple FIR convolution filter with uniform coefficients. Is there any reason to improve on the resultant comb filter (with nulls at sampling frequency/number of taps) by 'shaping' the coefficients?

 

3. I see that there is no filtration of the summer circuit. Did you see any 'switch glitch' at the virtual earth of the AD844?

 

As to what I would like to see in future versions of the DSC.

 

a. I like the lack of over engineering present in the current version and would like to see it kept as simple as possible. I see no reason for balanced output, although, as long as it doesn't greatly increase the cost I can't see a problem in providing the option on any future pcb.

 

b. I see no problem in using IC based op-amps but as you have already noted, different op-amps may allow lower impedance and thus provide better noise performance. I also do not see a problem with the Sallen and Key reconstruction filters. Although a lot of people like the idea of passive filters, I am not so keen on the inductors that would be required.

 

c. As there is already surface mount components in the DSC1, perhaps using more surface mount components would not be a problem especially if it allows a better layout

 

In any case, thanks for the interesting project.

 

Regards,

Bob

[4est]

 

Yes, thank you Miska!

 

I received a PM from Eurodriver about the sound of mine, and thought it best to post here. I have been running mine on and off for awhile, but was not sure about my results. Well, really I was not sure if I should post them. I am glad I waited, as I am getting better result now. FWIW, my two other DACs are a Soekris R2R and a modded Buffalo with a Joe Rassmussen output using UTC transformers and Vishay naked foil resistors. The latter has been an ongoing project for the last 4 years, and I am very familiar and fond of it, even though I am not a fan of the SABRE chip per se.

 

My initial implementation did not use the PS board even though I bought the parts. I had enough stuff around here that was of similar quality or better, and never got to it. Upon power up and my initial listening it was enjoyable, offering a very detailed and precise imaging that tracked well with dynamic swings. The problem was the dynamic swings just didn't pop as I had hoped. I tabled it for awhile and got busy with life.

 

Last weekend I found myself with some time, and prepared some better PSs. Nothing too special, TP Placid kit that was sitting in the drawer, and a TP bipolar Placid. Both of these are shunt type regulators which are the equivalent to a Class A amp. The basic theory being that the PS is always drawing the entire load plus a margin, and what is not used by the item goes to ground. Why is this important? Well, because the output of the digital filters directly relates to the power supply quality as the signal is essentially the positive voltage rail.

 

Well, now things were starting to look up, and my swing was beginning to come back. Not so much large dynamics (pop), but the micro dynamic shading was kicking in. You know, those subtle shifts of a single tone- ebb and flow if you will. At that time I had had the PS shunting about 100mA each as directed by the manufacturer. While listening an such, I remeberred how I had turned up my Buffalo DAC current, and it helped even though they were just pre regulators. And so, I turned everything up another 50mA, and swore to myself there was a difference. After an hour or two of listening I really cranked up the 5v for the digital chunk. I was now shunting 8-10x the power the circuit used- 550mA (I put over sized heat sinks on thankfully). Well, now there was for sure another uptick and things got much more "enjoyable/fun". Previously, it had the "monitoring" feel. You could hear everything, but didn't really feel it nor get drawn into the music the way I am accustomed to.

 

Presently, I am finding it pleasant enough for me to leave it in and play with it full time. It is not my BII w/ trannies, but readily bests the Soekris in enjoyment factor, and remember that r2r DACs spell party! Of course we are in that comparing PCM to DSD with all of its loop holes, but at least they shared the same Amanero card. That brings me to the largest caveat of this experiment. I have yet to really get on with the Amanero. I do not think the Amanero is a bad device as much as I think I have been spoiled. When I bought it years ago, it was to play with DSD on my Buffalo. At that time I was using a heavily tweaked M2Tech EVO i2s- power supplies, clocking and direct connections. To this day that is the best PCM interface I have heard, and the Amanero could not compete. This was before I tried HQP, and was upsampling to DSD with JRiver. At that time, it was no contest, and the Amanero sat on the shelf.

 

What's next you may wonder? Well, now the challenge is to see if I can maintain my clear view into the world with my DSC1 whilst regaining the large scale dynamics I have become accustomed to. I know many of you may think that transformers loose dynamics and freq response. 'Taint so in my manifestation. I'll not get into it too far, but my present BII has startling dynamics and thunderous bass. These are the marks of a properly sorted transformer IV. Bear in mind that much depends upon the transformers, and I doubt something cheap would be the same. If you were to buy something from say Lundhal, they would be at the top of their line, and even then I am not sure if the quality would be the same.

 

I really want to try my Sonore Audiobyte, but I am resisting the temptation. First I want to level the playing field. I have a couple of DIYINHK isolated USB>i2s boards that I purchased a year ago. This will allow me to to take a good hard listen with the same front end concurrently while getting the Amanero out of the equation. FWIW, I did feel the DIYINHK sounded better than the Amanero. Maybe it is the isolation, or simply that I am allowed to use a uFL master clock connection.

 

I look forward to the DSC2, but I am very happy with the DSC1. If the DSC2 is not forthcoming, I'll probably purchase a two more boards and stack them. This would allow a balanced filter output at the network resistors. Heck, there is even extra inverters on the board to create the balanced signal for the shift registers. This would allow a direct (transformer) connection with common mode power supply rejection making PS issues less prominent. In fact, this idea is what prompted me to start this thread!

 

In any case, thanks for the interesting project.

[shadowlight]

From NewMatrix on diyaudio

 

"China's implementation of open hardware Signalyst DSC1 from Ultimate current, looks better than the original , but do not know how it sounds.

DSC1 DAC DSD Amanero XMOS"

 

Found couple of other ones

 

Couple of interesting kits for DSC1 are showing up on Taobao.

 

This looks like the power supply board.

DSC1 DSD Powersupply

 

 

 

 

Another Kit DSC1 Kit

 

 

DSC1 Kit

 

 

 

Folks who have built DSC1 do the boards look good?

[MikeJazz]

Guys, what is the current state of affairs for DSC2?

 

@ Miska, I would like to build (in fact to find someone to build) a dsd dac, based on your project, so I would like to know:

 

- does it makes sense to hold on for the DSC2? Is it coming in a near future?

- and what would be a good solution to network it, so what would be the best solutions? would sonic orbiter se or microrendu be compatible?

- how would you rate dsc1 comparing to other dacs? what is it's relative level of performance?

 

looking forward to ear more about this exciting topic.

 

cheers.

Miguel

[tne]

Guys, what is the current state of affairs for DSC2?

 

@ Miska, I would like to build (in fact to find someone to build) a dsd dac, based on your project, so I would like to know:

 

- does it makes sense to hold on for the DSC2? Is it coming in a near future?

- and what would be a good solution to network it, so what would be the best solutions? would sonic orbiter se or microrendu be compatible?

- how would you rate dsc1 comparing to other dacs? what is it's relative level of performance?

 

looking forward to ear more about this exciting topic.

 

cheers.

Miguel

 

Same here.

I am in the market for a new DAC, though not urgently, and a semi-DIY project would be very interesting and fun. My general technical skills are reasonably high, but I would need precise instructions (with pictures) about parts, assembly, electrical safety, etc.

 

Fully balanced

DSD256 and DSD512 capable

AES and USB inputs

LPS

Highest quality components

[jabbr]

Have you looked through the DSC1 thread on diyAudio?

[bogi]

What do you thing about assembly and parts quality of this?

https://2.taobao.com/item.htm?id=523327606726

It seems to be complete DSC1 (if I understand it well).

[jabbr]

That was a one of built DSC1 that was sold -- not an available product

[Jud]

That was a one of built DSC1 that was sold -- not an available product

 

Anyone care to translate the price they wanted for it into $US?

[jrling]

Anyone care to translate the price they wanted for it into $US?

 

1 Chinese Yuan equals

0.15 US Dollar

 

so I reckon 1,500 Yuan is US$225 (Plus my commission!)

[Miska]

- does it makes sense to hold on for the DSC2? Is it coming in a near future?

 

I don't know when first version of DSC2 will be ready, because it depends how much time I have left from other higher priority activities like HQPlayer... It just takes time to do all the design work. Since DSC2 doesn't exist yet as built and tested it is impossible to say anything for or against it.

 

- and what would be a good solution to network it, so what would be the best solutions? would sonic orbiter se or microrendu be compatible?

 

Until Amanero is fully supported on Linux, I'd go with Windows. Unless you are fine running it at DSD128. For Ethernet-to-USB NAA as a small passive cooled Windows-compatible inexpensive board best option is probably MinnowBoard MAX. It can of course run Linux too just fine.

 

- how would you rate dsc1 comparing to other dacs? what is it's relative level of performance?

 

Depends on which aspect of performance you like to evaluate. Some aspects are best I've seen and some are certainly not. Some aspects can be improved with small modifications and are under continuous development and discussion. So it is hard to position it against something else without first defining criteria.

[MikeJazz]

Depends on which aspect of performance you like to evaluate. Some aspects are best I've seen and some are certainly not. Some aspects can be improved with small modifications and are under continuous development and discussion. So it is hard to position it against something else without first defining criteria.

 

Thanks Jussi for your reply.

 

there are 4 main parameters for any audio product, imho:

- tone: does it convey tone of instruments correctly?

- time: does it have no apparent timing distortions and do we feel the "flow" of the music and adequate rise and fall?

- space: proving a good system and listening space, does it allow to render the space and ambiance of a recording? If those parameters were preserved in the recording, of course.

- frequency/balance/loudness: does it provide dynamics and balanced performance in all frequency ranges?

 

For example, a chord 2qute scores quite well in all 4 areas.

A Rega DAC no so much on space (less well on imaging) and tone (darker tone).

 

Since you have experience with a lot of dacs at a sensible price range, it would be fun to have your say about the relative performance of DSC againts those and it would give us some reference points.

 

Finally what other dac's of the some type could be used in this kind of project?

[Miska]

there are 4 main parameters for any audio product, imho:

- tone: does it convey tone of instruments correctly?

- time: does it have no apparent timing distortions and do we feel the "flow" of the music and adequate rise and fall?

- space: proving a good system and listening space, does it allow to render the space and ambiance of a recording? If those parameters were preserved in the recording, of course.

- frequency/balance/loudness: does it provide dynamics and balanced performance in all frequency ranges?

 

That is all subjective and I cannot give straight figures for those. I'm thinking in terms of something that can be objectively measured as hard numbers. To me, DSC1 sounds very good, but I'm probably also biased and anyway it is my own subjective opinion, so I don't think there's much value for other people on such.

 

Finally what other dac's of the some type could be used in this kind of project?

 

I have to admit I don't understand the question, could you rephrase it please?

[MikeJazz]

That is all subjective and I cannot give straight figures for those. I'm thinking in terms of something that can be objectively measured as hard numbers. To me, DSC1 sounds very good, but I'm probably also biased and anyway it is my own subjective opinion, so I don't think there's much value for other people on such.

 

 

 

I have to admit I don't understand the question, could you rephrase it please?

 

I meant to find what possible alternatives there are to dsc1/dsc1 (similar design, dsd based, good fit for hqplayer filters)...

 

Maybe on another scale of prince, but do the lampizator's dsd dacs follow the same principles?

[Miska]

I meant to find what possible alternatives there are to dsc1/dsc1 (similar design, dsd based, good fit for hqplayer filters)...

 

There's quite wide range of DACs... But if you'd like a discrete implementation then Playback Designs Merlot probably, or T+A DAC8 DSD.

 

Chip based something like TEAC UD-501, iFi iDSD Micro on the less expensive side and something like exaSound in the middle.

 

Maybe on another scale of prince, but do the lampizator's dsd dacs follow the same principles?

 

I believe the operating principle of those is different...

[Jud]

I don't know when first version of DSC2 will be ready, because it depends how much time I have left from other higher priority activities like HQPlayer... It just takes time to do all the design work. Since DSC2 doesn't exist yet as built and tested it is impossible to say anything for or against it.

 

 

 

Until Amanero is fully supported on Linux, I'd go with Windows. Unless you are fine running it at DSD128. For Ethernet-to-USB NAA as a small passive cooled Windows-compatible inexpensive board best option is probably MinnowBoard MAX. It can of course run Linux too just fine.

 

 

 

Depends on which aspect of performance you like to evaluate. Some aspects are best I've seen and some are certainly not. Some aspects can be improved with small modifications and are under continuous development and discussion. So it is hard to position it against something else without first defining criteria.

 

If you would, I would like to know a couple of aspects that fall in each category: best you've seen, certainly not, and being improved with continuous development and discussion.

[bibo01]

There's quite wide range of DACs... But if you'd like a discrete implementation then Playback Designs Merlot probably, or T+A DAC8 DSD.

 

Chip based something like TEAC UD-501, iFi iDSD Micro on the less expensive side and something like exaSound in the middle.

 

 

 

I believe the operating principle of those is different...

 

There is also Aavik C-300, a pre with an interesting DSD section:

The Aavik C-300 DSD DAC section features a very simplistic gain structure with only one gain stage and a purely passive LC type analog filter, made from shielded coils and the highest quality capacitors available. The passive 6th order filter is placed at 60 kHz where it effectively removes all switching artefacts without adding excess noise in the audio-band. A pure and unique method of making the D to A conversion without passing the signal through any type of DAC chipset and software based noise shaping.

 

Miska, do you know it?

 

I heard that the designer has been working on a similar DAC.

[tne]

Have you looked through the DSC1 thread on diyAudio?

 

Not in an extensive way. Since (as Jussi states later) the DSC2 is not completed, I believe that waiting for this would be best for my situation.

 

Hoping these messages provide even further encouragement.

[jabbr]

Not in an extensive way. Since (as Jussi states later) the DSC2 is not completed, I believe that waiting for this would be best for my situation.

 

Hoping these messages provide even further encouragement.

 

There is discussion about potential improvements, ways to implement balanced etc. There is also an even more active "No DAC" minimalistic DSD DAC project.

[tne]

There is discussion about potential improvements, ways to implement balanced etc. There is also an even more active "No DAC" minimalistic DSD DAC project.

 

Thanks for the information.