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DSD only using DSC 1,2 or 3?


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Today in a thread, poster jabbr said:"Depending on your technical capabilities you could build a DSC1 Discrete DSD DAC for a few hundred $$ and then play around with software up sampling."

 

With the current popularity of DSD and HQPlayer here, I felt it might be time for a discussion about it. Miska has provided info on the single ended DSC 1, and touched on a balanced version DSC 2.

 

In the past I briefly looked into having boards made, but haven't had the where with all to really pursue it. My present thought is that it would be great to get group buy on the DSC1, or better yet a version 2 (or 3 for the common DIY crowd- just the pre IV digital section for use with other i2s and IV boards.)

 

Signalyst

 

Any interest?

Forrest:

Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA

DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP>

Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz

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Yes, I've been planning on waiting for DSC2 particularly because of the cost of making DSC1 boards. Group buy for boards in particular makes sense. I'd also be open to assembled.

 

The DSC1 has an I2S input -- basically the output of the Amanerro USB -> I2S board.

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I see no I2S user input (like rj45 or HDMI) only USB. What am I missing? I have a Sonore Signature Rendu with I2S output (HDMi) and would only build a DAC that has at least USB and HDMI (I2S).

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There may be some sort of balanced hdmi i2s>single ended i2s boards out there.That would seemingly be of interest to anyone who wants to uses balanced i2s. There just is not much out there.

I see no I2S user input (like rj45 or HDMI) only USB. What am I missing? I have a Sonore Signature Rendu with I2S output (HDMi) and would only build a DAC that has at least USB and HDMI (I2S).

Forrest:

Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA

DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP>

Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz

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I was waiting myself, but I am not sure if that is the best tack. Jussi seems busy keeping us happy with HQPlayer updates, and some expressed interest may spur it along. If I understand it, this was a keep it basic design. Get some boards made with the Gerber file and stuff them. Sadly, getting the boards made was my stumbling block. This design is intended to be hand made using through hole parts. We just need enough orders and a BOM order set up somewhere. It is a bit out of my league, or I'd set a group buy up myself.

Yes, I've been planning on waiting for DSC2 particularly because of the cost of making DSC1 boards. Group buy for boards in particular makes sense. I'd also be open to assembled.

 

The DSC1 has an I2S input -- basically the output of the Amanerro USB -> I2S board.

Forrest:

Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA

DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP>

Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz

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Yes, I've been planning on waiting for DSC2 particularly because of the cost of making DSC1 boards. Group buy for boards in particular makes sense. I'd also be open to assembled.

 

The DSC1 has an I2S input -- basically the output of the Amanerro USB -> I2S board.

 

I was waiting myself, but I am not sure if that is the best tack. Jussi seems busy keeping us happy with HQPlayer updates, and some expressed interest may spur it along.

 

Patience, Paduwan. ;)

 

Trusting that Miska is a bright guy(!), my guess is that DSC2 will incorporate significant learning from DSC1. Not that I am discouraging anyone from building version 1, but I personally would prefer to do this once and to construct the improved version.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

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I do not think there will ever be a finished design fwiw. He states as much. He also alluded to it being not an all out attempt. As for patience, I question that as well. I have complete faith in his work. Jussi presented his design for a diyer to have at it, and that is the spirit in which this is intended. He has made it clear he does not want to market this. Whomever wants one, needs to build it. We, as the users, need to start somewhere. Any reports or news of others building it?

 

Maybe start a DSC2 group buy interest poll?

 

FWIW, I think the DSC1 could readily have balanced out by tagging before or after the AD844, and using another IV.

Patience, Paduwan. ;)

 

Trusting that Miska is a bright guy(!), my guess is that DSC2 will incorporate significant learning from DSC1. Not that I am discouraging anyone from building version 1, but I personally would prefer to do this once and to construct the improved version.

Forrest:

Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA

DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP>

Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz

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I do not think there will ever be a finished design fwiw. He states as much. He also alluded to it being not an all out attempt. As for patience, I question that as well. I have complete faith in his work. Jussi presented his design for a diyer to have at it, and that is the spirit in which this is intended. He has made it clear he does not want to market this. Whomever wants one, needs to build it. We, as the users, need to start somewhere. Any reports or news of others building it?

 

Maybe start a DSC2 group buy interest poll?

 

FWIW, I think the DSC1 could readily have balanced out by tagging before or after the AD844, and using another IV.

With this thread you practically read my mind :)

 

I have been "preparing" for Miska's DSC2. Obviously, I am in contact with him. I live in Indonesia and I could have board+parts+assembling done at a good price.

Although Miska has not finalized the project yet, my idea is to make a first batch of about 10 assembled boards. This first group of users are like developers - they test, measure, have the resources to make the board into a working DAC, and may offer slight revisions. At the same time, they act like "guinea pigs". They would pay the raw costs.

Following this first batch, I would do a second batch of 50-100 assembled boards with a group buy behind. The number of boards depends on how large is the group buy.

Please let me know what you al think about this approach.

 

At the moment, till the DSC2 project is published, it is not possible to say how much each board is going to cost.

Jussi is saying that it will have about double the parts of DSC1, which rises the cost considerably. He is still unsure if he should make an all out best project or not, which it's obviously even more expensive. My view is that he should.

Furthermore, DSC2 will be compatible with both Amanero and JLSounds USB interfaces.

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It could be more interesting if NAA would be integrated with DAC in the common case, so LAN connector would be used for digital audio input. NAA could be then connected to DAC with short internal I2S connection. USB input could be optional for use with other players than HQPlayer.

 

Maybe some optical isolation solution could be used between LAN connector and NAA, so quite standard LAN cable would be sufficient.

i7 11850H + RTX A2000 Win11 HQPlayer ► Topping HS02 ► 2x iFi iSilencer ► SMSL D300 ► DIY headamp DHA1 ► HiFiMan HE-500
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IMHO it would really make sense to have a device that takes full advantage of Miska's already quite advanced software. Why not make it really good, why write all that magnificent software and not support it with good hardware? Of course "good" hardware is not up to discussion because that will kill the whole thing, no one gives advice about software because few people have the fake impression they understand what it is all about but we are all experts in hardware design, I already have several "best" implementations of DACs that sound quite different.

 

One vote for DSC2 that is designed for taking full advantage of the software. If it is announced as something less than the best people will spend even more money on tweaks to supposedly make it better. If Miska is OK to implement all he can think about I am sure it will be worth the investment, not just the next toy as usually happens.

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It could be more interesting if NAA would be integrated with DAC in the common case, so LAN connector would be used for digital audio input. NAA could be then connected to DAC with short internal I2S connection. USB input could be optional for use with other players than HQPlayer.

 

This would be relatively simple to add, but there's no I2S on the DSC1 since I2S is a PCM interface...

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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I2S can be used also for DSD but maybe only in the case of DoP, I never checked that.

 

Miska, what could be the best (and easy) solution for shot internal connection between NAA and DSCx ?

i7 11850H + RTX A2000 Win11 HQPlayer ► Topping HS02 ► 2x iFi iSilencer ► SMSL D300 ► DIY headamp DHA1 ► HiFiMan HE-500
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I2S can be used also for DSD but maybe only in the case of DoP, I never checked that.

 

Miska, what could be the best (and easy) solution for shot internal connection between NAA and DSCx ?

 

I2S has four lines:

- Data with left and right channel interleaved

- Word clock defining word boundary and which channel is being trasferred

- Bit clock defining bit boundaries

- Optional higher speed master clock for running DSP functions

 

DSD has three lines:

- Left channel data

- Right channel data

- Bit clock

 

To convert data from I2S to DSD would need some extra logic, probably only something like CPLD/FPGA would be feasible to implement it. There are probably some ways to implement NAA with direct raw DSD connection, but this is subject to further study. I haven't got time to try it out yet.

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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Miska: Silly me, I forgot those distinctions and that my usb convertors switch automatically between dsd and pcm. Twisted Pear (the buffalo dac guys) have developed some daughter boards and code for the BB Black that may be applicable for an NAA device.

I2S has four lines:

- Data with left and right channel interleaved

- Word clock defining word boundary and which channel is being trasferred

- Bit clock defining bit boundaries

- Optional higher speed master clock for running DSP functions

 

DSD has three lines:

- Left channel data

- Right channel data

- Bit clock

 

To convert data from I2S to DSD would need some extra logic, probably only something like CPLD/FPGA would be feasible to implement it. There are probably some ways to implement NAA with direct raw DSD connection, but this is subject to further study. I haven't got time to try it out yet.

Forrest:

Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA

DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP>

Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz

Link to comment

I would be all for this if it did not drive the material (and labor?) costs by 10x. Remember this is a labor of love for Miska, not profit.

IMHO it would really make sense to have a device that takes full advantage of Miska's already quite advanced software. Why not make it really good, why write all that magnificent software and not support it with good hardware? Of I would be all for this, but it would drive the materialcourse "good" hardware is not up to discussion because that will kill the whole thing, no one gives advice about software because few people have the fake impression they understand what it is all about but we are all experts in hardware design, I already have several "best" implementations of DACs that sound quite different.

 

One vote for DSC2 that is designed for taking full advantage of the software. If it is announced as something less than the best people will spend even more money on tweaks to supposedly make it better. If Miska is OK to implement all he can think about I am sure it will be worth the investment, not just the next toy as usually happens.

Forrest:

Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA

DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP>

Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz

Link to comment
This would be relatively simple to add, but there's no I2S on the DSC1 since I2S is a PCM interface...

 

What about SDIF3... ?

Sorry, english is not my native language.

Fools and fanatics are always certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.

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Sounds good to me. If I may present some options to think about.

1-Neither the Amanero or JL cards appear to be state of the art in terms of clocking etc. In lieu of another option, the Sonore Audiobyte seems like the best one available currently. I assume the pin header layout is the major difference.

2-What changes between DSC1 vs DSC2? If the primary change is after the shift register resistors RN1-4 & RN5-8, then maybe we should/could split the board there, or provide a header in so that one may apply a different form of I>V. I have nothing against Op Amps intrinsically, but have noted the differences in my foray with the Buffalo DAC. If we are to have boards pre-stuffed (assembled?), then maybe it would make sense to shift from through hole parts to surface mount, whereby gaining the advantages of size and impedance spec.

3-Speaking of which, how important are the resistor networks RN1-RN8? In a traditional DAC they are important. I noticed a distinct low level clarity change when I swapped out the cheap metal film parts that I replaced with the uber pricey Vishay tx2575 @$15 a pop- 64 are required for this design.

 

With this thread you practically read my mind :) I have been "preparing" for Miska's DSC2. Obviously, I am in contact with him. I live in Indonesia and I could have board+parts+assembling done at a good price.

Although Miska has not finalized the project yet, my idea is to make a first batch of about 10 assembled boards. This first group of users are like developers - they test, measure, have the resources to make the board into a working DAC, and may offer slight revisions. At the same time, they act like "guinea pigs". They would pay the raw costs.

Following this first batch, I would do a second batch of 50-100 assembled boards with a group buy behind. The number of boards depends on how large is the group buy.

Please let me know what you al think about this approach.

 

At the moment, till the DSC2 project is published, it is not possible to say how much each board is going to cost.

Jussi is saying that it will have about double the parts of DSC1, which rises the cost considerably. He is still unsure if he should make an all out best project or not, which it's obviously even more expensive. My view is that he should.

Furthermore, DSC2 will be compatible with both Amanero and JLSounds USB interfaces.

Forrest:

Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA

DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP>

Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz

Link to comment

I completely agree. And that is exactly why I proposed that Miska just shares a certain design that in his opinion makes most of the software and let everybody decide if that is OK with them or not. In the end that design will help evaluate his software in the best possible way and might make a lot of people happy.

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The "ultimate" design of this likely impossible by one person, and certainly not for free. This is where (and why) my #2 above comes into play. If Miska could lay out Gerbers and specs for his best decode section (presently it uses 4 8-bit shift registers per channel) and suggestions for initial I>V boards (or one of his own), we could be off to the races. His expertise is digital, and Signalyst is not his day job if I understand his previous statements. It seems unfair to push him into the entire task if we can split the load- standing on the shoulders of giants if you will.

I completely agree. And that is exactly why I proposed that Miska just shares a certain design that in his opinion makes most of the software and let everybody decide if that is OK with them or not. In the end that design will help evaluate his software in the best possible way and might make a lot of people happy.

Forrest:

Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA

DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP>

Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz

Link to comment
Patience, Paduwan. ;)

 

Trusting that Miska is a bright guy(!), my guess is that DSC2 will incorporate significant learning from DSC1. Not that I am discouraging anyone from building version 1, but I personally would prefer to do this once and to construct the improved version.

 

That's what I had in mind as well, not putting any pressure on Miska at all, on the contrary - my experience is that that if you tell people there is room for improvement they always spend more time and money on tweaks and "improvements" instead of just listening to music. This is actually what is happening now - just mention DSC2 and people start pushing about it and holding on their DSC1 build just because the new and better is coming. It always works like that.

 

I would much prefer if Miska just puts up a design that says "good enough for me" or "optimized for signalyst", that way people will just enjoy it and pay more time on the settings of the software(already a serious adventure) and just skip the "improvement" game, I can imagine the gazillion posts on diyaudio if someone just asks which regulators are the best. Please spare me that one.

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I would be interested in the group buy for DSC2, especially if there is a way to integrate NAA in the same case :)

 

+1

 

Plus there is also balanced outputs.

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I would be interested in the group buy for DSC2, especially if there is a way to integrate NAA in the same case :)

 

I'm having such great success isolating my digital noise from the DAC by using a Corning optical USB + regen that while you always could internally connect an ARM board to the USB input via a connector, I'm not personally interested in doing that.

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