This I believe -

[petaluma]

Hi senorx, I would venture that in human communications tone is nearly as important as the message. If the tone is negative, aggressive etc...the content of the message could be lost in the wave of negativity. Hard to argue/discuss a concept when the individual on the other end has stopped listening...just my 2 cents. Ok maybe a nickel.

 

I guess I don't. Wouldn't be the first time. Until the last of trithio's posts I saw nothing objectionable, and then it was only tone, not real substance, and that's who you're objecting to, correct?

[esldude]

Really guys, I don't see senorx or trithio as anywhere close to a ban. (though it isn't my forum)

 

My experience is telling people they are wrong is a touchy business. For one, even if you are right 99% of the time, they will crucify you the one time you aren't. Plus it doesn't help anything. Maybe couch your ideas in a less abrasive manner with a bit more humility, and humbleness. (those familiar with my opinions may find this humorous).

 

On the other hand, not all opinions are equally worhty of serious consideration. It gets damned frustrating if you don't feel you can tell someone they are factually just wrong as can be. Not just telling them mind you, but knowing they are, and knowing you can demonstrate that as the case. A bit more calling things like they are would benefit the audiophile world in huge and tremendously important ways. Throw out science, and engineering know how and you have something far worse than losing a baby with the bathwater. Think about that picture for a moment will you. If someone really threw their baby out with dirty bathwater that is a horrendous thing to do. I am talking about something perhaps worse than that.

[Superdad]

Hi senorx, I would venture that in human communications tone is nearly as important as the message. If the tone is negative, aggressive etc...the content of the message could be lost in the wave of negativity. Hard to argue/discuss a concept when the individual on the other end has stopped listening...just my 2 cents. Ok maybe a nickel.

 

Hey petaluma, welcome to CA! Petaluma is a great town. My older brother has lived there for 30 years--over on Howard St. He is a well-known master cabinet and furniture maker. Sometimes he rides around town with his dog Cinder on his vintage motorcycle. His name is Aaron in case that rings a bell since it is a small town.

Hope to see you in some other, more friendly threads.

Best,

Alex C.

[senorx]

Really guys, I don't see senorx or trithio as anywhere close to a ban. (though it isn't my forum)

 

My experience is telling people they are wrong is a touchy business. For one, even if you are right 99% of the time, they will crucify you the one time you aren't. Plus it doesn't help anything. Maybe couch your ideas in a less abrasive manner with a bit more humility, and humbleness. (those familiar with my opinions may find this humorous).

 

On the other hand, not all opinions are equally worhty of serious consideration. It gets damned frustrating if you don't feel you can tell someone they are factually just wrong as can be. Not just telling them mind you, but knowing they are, and knowing you can demonstrate that as the case. A bit more calling things like they are would benefit the audiophile world in huge and tremendously important ways. Throw out science, and engineering know how and you have something far worse than losing a baby with the bathwater. Think about that picture for a moment will you. If someone really threw their baby out with dirty bathwater that is a horrendous thing to do. I am talking about something perhaps worse than that.

 

I don't mean to be abrasive, but subtlety is also not one of my best things. Mea culpa. I don't think i ever said anyone was wrong. Adios.

[Allan F]

I don't mean to be abrasive, but subtlety is also not one of my best things. Mea culpa. I don't think i ever said anyone was wrong. Adios.

 

By agreeing with trithio's posts and defending him, you did. Hasta luego!

[Paul R]

Ai yi yi! Gang - as someone noted, the only person here who can or should make any kind of decisions about banning people is Chris C., and I have seen nothing here that appears to be the kind of material Chris very occasionally bans people for.

 

Being sure you are right and the rest of the world is wrong and withering in agony about the situation is not really banning material anyway. Nearly insufferable for everyone you interact with at times, yes.

 

Let's just drop any further conversation about banning and so forth. More than a few people have tried to explain to trithio, or Amar, or CAT, or whomever. It never works, and the end result is what has happened here- the thread gets polluted with this kind of conversation.

 

Let's go back and focus on ideas we believe in. Like free speech and the inalienable right to be wrong.

 

-Paul

[alfe]

Ai yi yi! Gang - as someone noted, the only person here who can or should make any kind of decisions about banning people is Chris C., and I have seen nothing here that appears to be the kind of material Chris very occasionally bans people for.

 

Being sure you are right and the rest of the world is wrong and withering in agony about the situation is not really banning material anyway. Nearly insufferable for everyone you interact with at times, yes.

 

Let's just drop any further conversation about banning and so forth. More than a few people have tried to explain to trithio, or Amar, or CAT, or whomever. It never works, and the end result is what has happened here- the thread gets polluted with this kind of conversation.

 

Let's go back and focus on ideas we believe in. Like free speech and the inalienable right to be wrong.

 

-Paul

 

So let's get back to audio, tell me Paul how the hell you tweaked your ears to hear a difference after a burn in period:)

[Paul R]

So let's get back to audio, tell me Paul how the hell you tweaked your ears to hear a difference after a burn in period:)

 

LOL! Absolutely no tweaking required. Just had two sets of the same cables, and then replaced the "burned in" (a most inaccurate term, but what else to use?) cables with the fresh cables and wham - there was no mistaking the difference.

 

Suspecting everything from corrosion on the cables to earwax got me exactly nowhere. I cleaned connectors, tried using stablilant, had my wife assist me in a blind test, and then asked her to try a blind test. No doubt about it, those darn cables sounded *different*. There is a possibility that the two cables were just inherently different in some way, so I measured their LCR (virtually identical, at least to within the error of my test gear) and then left the second pair in a while. Lo and behold, a few weeks later, I switched them out and the first pair sounded different.

 

Deucedly annoying, as I do not have an explanation for this observation.

 

But I severely misdoubt that is was observational error or "wishful thinking." That last term always annoys me. I am, decidedly, cheap. Why would I *want* to spend more money on cables when by all expectations, 12g zip cord should sound the same? (I wrote in my notebook that "It should sound the same, it really should, darn it all.")

 

But at least here, to my ears and to my wife's ears, it doesn't. This is speaking in particular of speaker cables by the way. And if you think I am cheap about spending on audio gear, my wife takes that to an entirely new level...

[alfe]

LOL! Absolutely no tweaking required. Just had two sets of the same cables, and then replaced the "burned in" (a most inaccurate term, but what else to use?) cables with the fresh cables and wham - there was no mistaking the difference.

 

Suspecting everything from corrosion on the cables to earwax got me exactly nowhere. I cleaned connectors, tried using stablilant, had my wife assist me in a blind test, and then asked her to try a blind test. No doubt about it, those darn cables sounded *different*. There is a possibility that the two cables were just inherently different in some way, so I measured their LCR (virtually identical, at least to within the error of my test gear) and then left the second pair in a while. Lo and behold, a few weeks later, I switched them out and the first pair sounded different.

 

Deucedly annoying, as I do not have an explanation for this observation.

 

But I severely misdoubt that is was observational error or "wishful thinking." That last term always annoys me. I am, decidedly, cheap. Why would I *want* to spend more money on cables when by all expectations, 12g zip cord should sound the same? (I wrote in my notebook that "It should sound the same, it really should, darn it all.")

 

But at least here, to my ears and to my wife's ears, it doesn't. This is speaking in particular of speaker cables by the way. And if you think I am cheap about spending on audio gear, my wife takes that to an entirely new level...

 

Thank you for the explanation and I believe what you say is true.

Now after burn in the fresh cable do they sound the same?

[trithio]

.

 

There is never going to be "intelligent discussion" on these topics if the come-back is always of the form:

Your ears aren't good enough

Your system isn't good enough

You have a bad attitude about it, that's why you don't notice

Rigorous testing ruins the effect

We don't know everything, so anything is possible

The list goes on...

 

P.S. What is with this meta-moderation? "Be careful, or you'll get banned." Seems like a sinister form of bullying to me.

 

That is a very good summary of the 'mature and respectful' feedback I got for just trying to promote an objective, data based view.

As extra bonus I've also been called a troll. For simply stating my beliefs in the 'I believe' thread of all places. Really mature and respectuful that one.

Also been singled out and specifically accused for something that 99% of CA members do: staying relatively anonymous.

And lately just a few posts above been called a fool. No less, by someone who seriously thinks that 'anecdotes can be data'. Another example of well thought, mature and respectful reply.

But in spite of all that, somehow I am the bad guy. Cause I posted ONE mock anecdote to make a point about the null value of those kind of stories. In my opinion also totally called for by the very friendly and respectful 'anyone can hear it' that sits as a beautiful cherry on the original anecdote.

Here's my anecdote about CA. According to my experince this is the place where subjective audiophiles can mock, belittle and pretty much say whatever they please to objective computer guys who are not allowed to answer to any of that. And god forbid they try to use a similar currency to respond. Or use anything remotely scientific to sustain their points.

 

Well, I also do believe that things could be much better than that around here.

But not sure exactly how. Cause if I am not allowed to respond in kind or to ask people to prove their afirmations, I'm not sure what else I could do other than ingurgitate dubious and 100% unproven stories about sound. I can of course relax and enjoy the music but no need of CA in that scenario. I came here to try to learn something. And that does not include anecdotes. If I want those, fiction books are a way better source.

And sorry for what many consider 'bad atitude' but I'm not the kind that stays still for people to pour their unproved 'inventions' into his throat. Also have absolutely no respect for sacred cows. Actually I think they taste better.

 

That was just a disapointed rant. And guess that would be all for a while. Or simply just all.

[petaluma]

Alex, thanks for the welcome. I've been on CA for awhile but don't post much. Great site when jumping into the world of quality computer audio. Chris's guide on setting up JRiver was really helpful. Bought a Meridian DAC, downloaded JRiver and was up and listening in a matter of minutes! Good stuff.

 

The wife and I have been in Petaluma since 92. Excellent place to live. Great vineyards minutes away and a world class city 45 miles south.....Know right where Howard St is. Don't believe I have seen your brother and his dog, pretty sure I would have filed that one away!

 

Cheers

 

David

 

 

Hey petaluma, welcome to CA! Petaluma is a great town. My older brother has lived there for 30 years--over on Howard St. He is a well-known master cabinet and furniture maker. Sometimes he rides around town with his dog Cinder on his vintage motorcycle. His name is Aaron in case that rings a bell since it is a small town.

Hope to see you in some other, more friendly threads.

Best,

Alex C.

[Paul R]

Thank you for the explanation and I believe what you say is true.

Now after burn in the fresh cable do they sound the same?

 

Actually, I have not been able to devise a way to play both sets of cables for the exact same amount of time and then test if they sound the same. I suppose I could bi-wire the speakers...

[alfe]

Actually, I have not been able to devise a way to play both sets of cables for the exact same amount of time and then test if they sound the same. I suppose I could bi-wire the speakers...

 

So you can't say that they sound different because of burn in period, it can also be soldering,crimping or anything else.

As far as you don't complete your test ...you don't know:)

[Paul R]

So you can't say that they sound different because of burn in period, it can also be soldering,crimping or anything else.

As far as you don't complete your test ...you don't know:)

 

I am sorry, I don't follow your logic. Use cables for two weeks, put in new cables, they sound different. Put in used cables, they sound different from new cables. Switch and test as many times as you like.

 

What I mean was I have never considered running both sets of cables for exactly the same length of time, with exactly the same signals at exactly the same amplitudes, and then seeing if they sound the same. The cables *do* sound the same when they are both fresh out of the box.

 

-Paul

[alfe]

I am sorry, I don't follow your logic. Use cables for two weeks, put in new cables, they sound different. Put in used cables, they sound different from new cables. Switch and test as many times as you like.

 

What I mean was I have never considered running both sets of cables for exactly the same length of time, with exactly the same signals at exactly the same amplitudes, and then seeing if they sound the same. The cables *do* sound the same when they are both fresh out of the box.

 

-Paul

 

 

Speaker Wire

[Paul R]

Speaker Wire

 

Well, that page and information has been around for a couple decades I think, and while much of it is true, when one can listen to one speaker cable of the same gauge and measurement, and another that is identical in gauge and measurement, and hear a difference - then one should investigate. Cable geometry and composition seems to make a difference to me.

 

Perhaps not to other people, but - seriously?

 

-Paul

[alfe]

Cable geometry and composition seems to make a difference to me.

 

-Paul

 

For me also, I can hear difference between cable with identical gauge.

But the burn in.... are you sure that you tested them one after the other fresh out of the box?

[Paul R]

For me also, I can hear difference between cable with identical gauge.

But the burn in.... are you sure that you tested them one after the other fresh out of the box?

 

Actually yeah - mostly because I did not believe it would make a difference, but I was trying to be systematic with the testing. Darndest fool thing I ever encountered. The set that "burned in" apparently "reverted" after not being used for a couple weeks. Most annoying.

[alfe]

Actually yeah - mostly because I did not believe it would make a difference, but I was trying to be systematic with the testing. Darndest fool thing I ever encountered. The set that "burned in" apparently "reverted" after not being used for a couple weeks. Most annoying.

[beanbag]

There is a possibility that the two cables were just inherently different in some way, so I measured their LCR (virtually identical, at least to within the error of my test gear)

 

To what level of precision can your meter measure resistance?

[Mike Mcsweeney]

cables make a difference....I had a broken cable and I didn't get any sound out of it...and then I replaced it with a really good cable, and then I got sound....therefore I know cables make a difference.

 

can you put a cheap banana plug on a really expensive cable?

[trithio]

Darndest fool thing I ever encountered. The set that "burned in" apparently "reverted" after not being used for a couple weeks. Most annoying.

Normally, that is a standard textbook example of your ears adjusting to a sound signature and then needing time to re-adjust. Absolutely nothing to do with the cables and 100% hearing/ear physiology.

But that 'explanation' assumes that the mythical cable-sound exists. Which was never, ever proven. 'As far as I know' implied here. Also got zero answers when I asked around if anyone knows about proof.

 

alfe's answer to that burnin/revert thing was actually much better than mine. That 'darndest thing' is so wrong on so many levels that you cannot even debunk it in any remotely rational framework. You should put my answer-attempt in the 'wasting lazy time' category.

[Paul R]

To what level of precision can your meter measure resistance?

 

I sued a Fluke 87V, which is not laboratory level equipment, but is what I had available.

-Paul

 

 

DC Voltage, Resistance, and Conductance Function

 

 

[TABLE]

[TR]

[TD] Function

 

 

[/TD]

[TD] Range

 

 

[/TD]

[TD] Resolution

 

 

[/TD]

[TD] Accuracy

 

 

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD] L

 

 

[/TD]

[TD] 6.000 V60.00 V600.0 V1000 V

 

 

[/TD]

[TD] 0.001 V0.01 V0.1 V1V

 

 

[/TD]

[TD] ± (0.05 % + 1)± (0.05 % + 1)± (0.05 % + 1)± (0.05 % + 1)

 

 

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD] F

mV

 

 

[/TD]

[TD] 600.0 mV

 

 

[/TD]

[TD] 0.1 mV

 

 

[/TD]

[TD] ± (0.1 % + 1)

 

 

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD] e

nS

 

 

[/TD]

[TD] 600.0 Ω6.000 kΩ60.00 kΩ600.0 kΩ6.000 MΩ50.00 MΩ60.00 nS

 

 

[/TD]

[TD] 0.1 Ω0.001 kΩ0.01 kΩ0.1 kΩ0.001 MΩ0.01 MΩ0.01 nS

 

 

[/TD]

[TD] ± (0.2 % + 2)[1]

± (0.2 % + 1)

± (0.2 % + 1)

± (0.6 % + 1)

± (0.6 % + 1)

± (1.0 % + 3)[2]

± (1.0 % + 10)[1,2]

 

 

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=colspan: 4]

1. [1] When using the REL ∆ function to compensate for offsets.
    
   
2. [2] Add 0.5 % of reading when measuring above 30 MΩ in the 50 MΩ range, and 20 counts below 33 nS in the 60 nS range.
    
   

 

 

[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

[Paul R]

Normally, that is a standard textbook example of your ears adjusting to a sound signature and then needing time to re-adjust. Absolutely nothing to do with the cables and 100% hearing/ear physiology.

But that 'explanation' assumes that the mythical cable-sound exists. Which was never, ever proven. 'As far as I know' implied here. Also got zero answers when I asked around if anyone knows about proof.

 

alfe's answer to that burnin/revert thing was actually much better than mine. That 'darndest thing' is so wrong on so many levels that you cannot even debunk it in any remotely rational framework. You should put my answer-attempt in the 'wasting lazy time' category.

 

Well, I don't know what textbooks you are reading, but when the sound changes in an AB test, blinded, and one can pick out the difference between two cables, I doubt really seriously that has anything to do with one's ears learning to adjust. And that is exactly what is happening here. Both myself and my wife, and a few friends. And yes, some people could not tell a difference, and some people could.

 

 

As for your contention that cables sounding different has "never ever been proven" - we will just have to disagree with that. I have trouble with people being selective about the facts they choose. (shrug) It is anything but using the scientific method to ignore inconvienent facts.

 

 

-Paul

[trithio]

Well, I don't know what textbooks you are reading, but when the sound changes in an AB test, blinded, and one can pick out the difference between two cables, I doubt really seriously that has anything to do with one's ears learning to adjust. And that is exactly what is happening here. Both myself and my wife, and a few friends. And yes, some people could not tell a difference, and some people could.

 

 

As for your contention that cables sounding different has "never ever been proven" - we will just have to disagree with that. I have trouble with people being selective about the facts they choose. (shrug) It is anything but using the scientific method to ignore inconvienent facts.

 

 

-Paul

 

Sorry that was truly just lazy thinking out loud from my side. Wont go into an argument because I consider the burnin/revert scenario a rational black whole. Logic and reason simply dissapear if you go in there.

 

But you mentioned blind tests who proved cable sound. Feel free to post a link cause google couldnt give me a single one. I guess when it comes to audio and cables, google is also 'uselessly wrong'