DSD downloads worth the trouble?

[Paul R]

The quantization error has got nothing to do with that, as it is defined solely as the error that occurs as a result of converting voltages (that can be anywhere in the input range) to discrete levels (that are values that can be expressed as binary numbers). Because the voltages can be anywhere in the input range, they can be anywhere between the discrete levels, so the conversion of voltages to discrete leves (also called quantization) introduces some truncation or rounding error, and it is this error we call quantization error.

 

P.S.: It should however be noted that, in the case of a re-quantization (that changes the bit-depth), it can occur that the conversion from discrete levels to different discrete levels will also introduce quantization error. For example, in the case of DSD, it can happen that the quantizer in the ADC is a multi-bit quantizer, whereas the DSD output of this same ADC is obviously 1-bit instead of multi-bit, so that there must be a 1-bit re-quantizer of sorts included in this ADC. A conversion from multi-bit to 1-bit unfortunately does not fix the problem described (and then mathematically proven...) by Lipshitz & Vanderkooy. Instead, any conversion to 1-bit actually causes the problem, and this is why DSD has gone the way of the dud.

 

Well, sort of. Quantization error is the error between the exact value of the analog wave and what the value is at sample time. That means, roughly, the more samples, the less error.

 

On the other paw, I am far from convinced that DSD has a significant issue with quantization error, first because of the signal rate, and second because DSD doesn't use "samples" the same way PCM does. Doesn't really have any samples that tell you what the signal was at any particular instant.

 

We also disagree a bit - DSD is far from "dud" - it is in fact, very much alive and growing at a tremendous rate.

 

-Paul

[Hiro]

This has been (and continues to be) my experience too. It could well be that my DSD recording and replay equipment just isn't up to the job (I've had a Mytek in the past, and currently have a Tascam DV-RA1000HD, a Tascam DA-3000, a modified Korg MR1000 and an iFi Nano), so no Grimms or Meitners or Lampis unfortunately.

 

You should check out some native DSD recordings made with the Grimm -- this SQ needs to be heard to be believed.

 

https://channelclassics.nativedsd.com/albums/guardian-angel

 

P.S. I'm yet to hear 5.6MHz DSD recordings made with the Meitner converters...

[Hiro]

This Pieter Wispelwey recording demonstrates the capabilities of DSD format quite spectacularly as well. It won BBC Music Magazine's Technical Excellence Award.

 

The first piece on the album: Concerto nr. 2 in G major for Cello and Orchestra, op. 126 - Largo (Shostakovich) packs more DR than I ever heard on any recording sourced from analogue tape.

 

https://channelclassics.nativedsd.com/albums/25308-shostakovich-britten-cello-works

[tailspn]

The first piece on the album: Concerto nr. 2 in G major for Cello and Orchestra, op. 126 - Largo (Shostakovich) packs more DR than I ever heard on any recording sourced from analogue tape.

 

https://channelclassics.nativedsd.com/albums/25308-shostakovich-britten-cello-works

 

Yep, about a clean 30dB more

[tailspn]

P.S. I'm yet to hear 5.6MHz DSD recordings made with the Meitner converters...

 

They're none released, to my knowledge. While the raw EMM AD8 IV can produce 128fs DSD bit streams over SDIF, there were no professional DSD recording platforms available, and no 128fs editing tools. Everything was 64fs based.

 

Horus, and Pyramix 8.1 changes that, but its A/D converters are so sonically superior, there's no reason to hump all that old hardware to a session.

[Hiro]

They're none released, to my knowledge. While the raw EMM AD8 IV can produce 128fs DSD bit streams over SDIF, there were no professional DSD recording platforms available, and no 128fs editing tools. Everything was 64fs based.

 

Horus, and Pyramix 8.1 changes that, but its A/D converters are so sonically superior, there's no reason to hump all that old hardware to a session.

 

If you haven't bothered bringing the 128Fs/5.6MHz Meitner converters to a session, how do you know the Horus converters are sonically superior?

[tailspn]

If you haven't bothered bringing the 128Fs/5.6MHz Meitner converters to a session, how do you know the Horus converters are sonically superior?

 

To my knowledge, two major independent recording production houses, and one symphony orchestra (so far) that had been using AD8 IV's, and now Horus's, compared them and sold all their EMM A/D converters. It's not that the EMM converters were bad in and of themselves, but they required external mic pres, and long line level runs from the stage placed mic pres, to the control room placed A/D converters. The Horus's are all used as stage boxes, close to the mics, and networked via Ethernet. The sound quality difference just for that reason alone, at 64fs is dramatic.

 

To your question though, after working with Horus, and experiencing the sound quality improvement over previous discrete component recording systems, no one cared about resurrecting their Mykerinos cards to try imputing a Meitner A/D at 128fs. There's a boat load of EMM AD8 IV's available should one want to try them at 128fs, along with the Mykerinos cards to interface them with Pyramix.

 

There's so much to music recording, especially location acoustic music recording, that's not widely known or publicized, yet affects the final project outcome. The A/D converters used play a minor role compared to hall choice and usage, microphone selection and placement, and how the entire system is configured.

[bmoura]

They're none released, to my knowledge. While the raw EMM AD8 IV can produce 128fs DSD bit streams over SDIF, there were no professional DSD recording platforms available, and no 128fs editing tools. Everything was 64fs based.

 

Horus, and Pyramix 8.1 changes that, but its A/D converters are so sonically superior, there's no reason to hump all that old hardware to a session.

 

And the just released "HAPI" product by Pyramix promises another jump. I understand that it brings 8 Channels of A/D and D/A at DSD256 for the same price as some are paying today for high end PCM and DSD DACs!

 

Not sure if Pyramix has seriously considered marketing the HAPI to the audiophile and collector markets. But it would be a hit if that market is pursued. There are a lot of Vinyl LPs and Reel Tapes that collectors have that the HAPI could archive to DSD128 and DSD256 quite effectively!

 

Merging Technologies | Hapi Mic Pre & AD/DA Converter with RAVENNA AES67

[gstanley75]

This is the beginning of my sixth decade of listening to music. I have consumed music in every format except 78s and wax cylinders. I just wasted a hour scanning the poorly supported opinions in this specific stream. Unfortunately that is an hour wasted that I could have been listening to quality music instead of the musing over formats. Today I listen to CD, SACD, DVD-A, vinyl records old and new, PCM in form of FLAC and AIFF, and DSD, love performances, and FM/ streaming radio. I appreciate good reproduction and have generally found over the 5,000 albums in my collection that the damage done by the engineers and producers exceeds ALL the differences between formats. Yes there are differences and I will keep my preferences to myself. And, I encourage, CA readers and contributors to listen for themselves and form their own impressions and to spend time searching out artist, engineers and producers of quality. Because, before you know it you will age to the point the differences begin to diminish with your hearing, then you will wish you spent more time listening to music and less time arguing on forums.

[gstanley75]

Oh and one more comment. Yes, DSD downloads are worth the trouble. (Answer to original posted question.)

[bmoura]

Oh and one more comment. Yes, DSD downloads are worth the trouble. (Answer to original posted question.)

 

I definitely agree. Especially when they are from Analog and DSD sources!

[Paul R]

And the just released "HAPI" product by Pyramix promises another jump. I understand that it brings 8 Channels of A/D and D/A at DSD256 for the same price as some are paying today for high end PCM and DSD DACs!

 

Not sure if Pyramix has seriously considered marketing the HAPI to the audiophile and collector markets. But it would be a hit if that market is pursued. There are a lot of Vinyl LPs and Reel Tapes that collectors have that the HAPI could archive to DSD128 and DSD256 quite effectively!

 

Merging Technologies | Hapi Mic Pre & AD/DA Converter with RAVENNA AES67

 

And perhaps may be an answer for those who want high end multichannel sound?

[Jud]

If you haven't bothered bringing the 128Fs/5.6MHz Meitner converters to a session, how do you know the Horus converters are sonically superior?

 

To my knowledge, two major independent recording production houses, and one symphony orchestra (so far) that had been using AD8 IV's, and now Horus's, compared them and sold all their EMM A/D converters. It's not that the EMM converters were bad in and of themselves, but they required external mic pres, and long line level runs from the stage placed mic pres, to the control room placed A/D converters. The Horus's are all used as stage boxes, close to the mics, and networked via Ethernet. The sound quality difference just for that reason alone, at 64fs is dramatic.

 

To your question though, after working with Horus, and experiencing the sound quality improvement over previous discrete component recording systems, no one cared about resurrecting their Mykerinos cards to try imputing a Meitner A/D at 128fs. There's a boat load of EMM AD8 IV's available should one want to try them at 128fs, along with the Mykerinos cards to interface them with Pyramix.

 

There's so much to music recording, especially location acoustic music recording, that's not widely known or publicized, yet affects the final project outcome. The A/D converters used play a minor role compared to hall choice and usage, microphone selection and placement, and how the entire system is configured.

 

Hiro, you'll probably recall this, though if you weren't aware of it previously it may be of some interest to you:

 

DSD Battle Royale! - Page 12

 

DSD Battle Royale! - Page 12

 

Edit: and also - http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/direct-stream-digital-battle-royale-d-converter-comparison-downloadable-files-18257/

[bmoura]

And perhaps may be an answer for those who want high end multichannel sound?

 

Yes. It will be another Multichannel option. Before the exaSound e28 was pretty much the go-to option for Multichannel DSD, up to DSD256.

[Hiro]

Hiro, you'll probably recall this, though if you weren't aware of it previously it may be of some interest to you:

 

DSD Battle Royale! - Page 12

 

DSD Battle Royale! - Page 12

 

Edit: and also - http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/direct-stream-digital-battle-royale-d-converter-comparison-downloadable-files-18257/

 

Thanks Jud, yes I heard about this test. Too bad Bruce didn't do any analog to 5.6MHz DSD transfers on the Meitner AD8 Mk IV. Such a missed opportunity to hear the converter at its native rate. Although, of course, hearing a full orchestra via the 5.6MHz Meitners would be far more informative in absolute terms

[bmoura]

Thanks Jud, yes I heard about this test. Too bad Bruce didn't do any analog to 5.6MHz DSD transfers on the Meitner AD8 Mk IV. Such a missed opportunity to hear the converter at its native rate. Although, of course, hearing a full orchestra via the 5.6MHz Meitners would be far more informative in absolute terms

 

I always thought it was a shame there is no way to get DSD Downloads into the 6 Channel DAC-6 and DAC-6/SE Meitner units. That would be some very nice Stereo and Multichannel listening at DSD64 and DSD128!

[Hiro]

I hope that this brilliant Eric Bibb recording will find its way to the nativeDSD store one day...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wttvAX8gDw

 

Recorded in DSD on the Sonoma workstation by Michael Bishop.

[ted_b]

Yes, we continue to reach out to Concord. That album (Booker's Guitar) is great.

[Hiro]

Yes, we continue to reach out to Concord. That album (Booker's Guitar) is great.

 

Great to hear it! This album deserves a Native DSD release.

[bmoura]

Yes, we continue to reach out to Concord. That album (Booker's Guitar) is great.

 

There are many great DSD recordings in that collection. Including many that never saw the light of day as SACDs, only on CD. Adding those would really be something!

[ted_b]

There are many great DSD recordings in that collection. Including many that never saw the light of day as SACDs, only on CD

 

Yes, like the aforementioned Booker's Guitar. It would be nice......we will keep trying to close.

[spdif-usb]

And about how DSD requires noise shaping after the DAC

There is no noise shaping required after the DAC. The ultrasonic noise of DSD just needs to be filtered at some point, in order not to destroy the tweeter. It's an additional step, and the decimation in PCM is also an additional step. DSD advocates used to brag about how DSD involves less steps. However, DSD is still only 1-bit, so if the ADC uses a multi-bit Delta-Sigma Modulator then, consequently, there will need to be another step added, i.e., a re-quantization from multi-bit to 1-bit, or a 1-bit quantizer. The "less steps" argument is basically a moot point. The Lipshitz & Vanderkooy paper describes the effect of dither on a 1-bit quantizer.

[spdif-usb]

Well, sort of. Quantization error is the error between the exact value of the analog wave and what the value is at sample time. That means, roughly, the more samples, the less error.

 

On the other paw, I am far from convinced that DSD has a significant issue with quantization error, first because of the signal rate, and second because DSD doesn't use "samples" the same way PCM does. Doesn't really have any samples that tell you what the signal was at any particular instant.

 

We also disagree a bit - DSD is far from "dud" - it is in fact, very much alive and growing at a tremendous rate.

 

-Paul

No, the quantization error does not in any way include the error that is the voltage difference between the analog input signal and the Sample-and-hold (S/H). It is just the difference between the voltage that results from the S/H and this same voltage converted to a binary value.

[Hiro]

Yes, like the aforementioned Booker's Guitar. It would be nice......we will keep trying to close.

 

Another source of potential DSD content are the new analog recordings. I've heard that quite a few bands are still recording to tape, using analog mixing consoles and stuff. All that's needed to make those new recordings available in DSD or DSD128 is to make direct A -> DSD transfers from those masters.

[Hiro]

DSD advocates used to brag about how DSD involves less steps. However, DSD is still only 1-bit, so if the ADC uses a multi-bit Delta-Sigma Modulator then, consequently, there will need to be another step added, i.e., a re-quantization from multi-bit to 1-bit, or a 1-bit quantizer. The "less steps" argument is basically a moot point.

 

It's not a moot point, because there are still fewer steps involved in a DSD chain, no matter if we are talking about a 1-bit or 5-bit DSD DAC (there are no PCM reconstruction filters, no 8x oversampling filters, and no PCM > SDM conversion and upsampling). In a recent interview, Ken Ishiwata from Marantz admitted just that, when describing the advantage of DSD as realized in modern delta-sigma based DAC chips.