DSD downloads worth the trouble?

[CatManDo]

The question was about DSD downloads. These have appeared only recently, after DSD-compatible DACs and players became available.

[ted_b]

CatManDo,

The question about DSD downloads is about DSD. I doubt it's about "downloads". And yes, Cookie and others have had DSD downloads for quite some time. And most labels are now realizing they can "rip their SACD catalog" and provide it for sale as downloads. In your own words, there's plenty.

[orgel]

+1 on what Ted said.

 

I know the OP (PAP) mentioned "DSD downloads," but as I interpret it, what's come out of the conversation is that he's curious about DSD generally.

 

Also like Ted, I too am not understanding what the problem is with wanting to be able to play back both DSD and PCM. I thought the consensus about audiophilia was that "do what thou wilt" was perfectly acceptable, even in cases that are arguably more controversial than having the ability to play back DSF files without converting them to PCM.

 

--David

[bmoura]

+1 on what Ted said.

 

I know the OP (PAP) mentioned "DSD downloads," but as I interpret it, what's come out of the conversation is that he's curious about DSD generally.

 

Also like Ted, I too am not understanding what the problem is with wanting to be able to play back both DSD and PCM. I thought the consensus about audiophilia was that "do what thou wilt" was perfectly acceptable, even in cases that are arguably more controversial than having the ability to play back DSF files without converting them to PCM.

 

--David

 

Agreed. More choices is the way to go. With DSD DACs now starting at $189, it's very easy and affordable to have DSD playback today.

[elcorso]

The question was about DSD downloads. These have appeared only recently, after DSD-compatible DACs and players became available.

 

Claude,

 

First the milk was sold door to door in the large container to small that you had at home. Then in glass bottles, also door to door. Now in supermarkets in Tetrabrick or cartons.

 

In the end, remains the same "milk." BTW, I have more rips to PS3 than downloads.

 

If I have I do apologize to the OP, but which question in this forum does not deviate a little, or a LOT...?

 

Looking the internet exotic prices for most wanted out of print DSDs, I do love downloads...!

 

Best,

 

Roch

[esimms86]

Agreed. More choices is the way to go. With DSD DACs now starting at $189, it's very easy and affordable to have DSD playback today.

 

Bmoura, you're essentially correct except for the fact that the Schiit Loki can be purchased for $149.

 

Esau

[Paul R]

Market needs novelty, dsd is novelty. this year... we don't know how it's going to be next year.

 

One think is sure, 99% of the records are not and will not be made on dsd for the editing limitation already known.

Channel Classics goes to great trouble doing their live "setup" of musicians to avoid such editing limitations, but I wonder who else does that kind of perfectionist approach... we are certainly talk about niche players...

 

I might point out the exact same things were said about computer audio in general, at least until Apple came out with the iPod. Even then, many folks complained about it and how a computer would never equal the sound of the CD player, Record player, Radio, or whatever else you want to name. Now CA is, if not pre-emininent, at least growing at a tremendous rate.

 

DSD and the technology/capacity to use it, in terms of computers, storage, and network bandwidth, is a good fit for this particular time, and I do not expect it to be a "flash in the pan."

 

-Paul

[bmoura]

Bmoura, you're essentially correct except for the fact that the Schiit Loki can be purchased for $149.

 

Esau

 

Even better!

[bmoura]

Looking the internet exotic prices for most wanted out of print DSDs, I do love downloads...!

 

Yes, a big plus. Not to mention that DSD Downloads made from DSD Edit Masters and DSD Cutting Masters are much closer to the actual performance than a PS3 rip.

[Le Concombre Masqué]

how come ?

Yes, a big plus. Not to mention that DSD Downloads made from DSD Edit Masters and DSD Cutting Masters are much closer to the actual performance than a PS3 rip.

[ted_b]

how come ?

 

Cuz, at least in the case of DSD Edit Masters, they don't have to go through the SACD authoring stage and then transferred to a disc.

[Jud]

Cuz, at least in the case of DSD Edit Masters, they don't have to go through the SACD authoring stage and then transferred to a disc.

 

Naive question: *If* (big if, I know) the ripped SACD and download are from the same mastering, would the DSD files not be bit-for-bit identical?

[Le Concombre Masqué]

so if one owns a sacd collection and has been through the process of ripping to iso (legal in some countries) and then to dff (that stage makes a big difference ; don't let A+ do the slicing on fly) he should still buy the downloads (i.e. the Analogue Productions) to get a better sound by a good margin ?

 

btw, since I'm posting, I back the TEAC 501 but no form of conversion.

[YashN]

Even better!

 

Better than what?

 

The iFi iDSD Nano does Quad-rate DSD natively and also does PCM to DXD level with excellent quality for $189.

 

Schiit only does DSD64...

[YashN]

Well, without a a DAC to play then DSD downloads are not worth the trouble.

 

Partly wrong: you'd definitely benefit from music recorded in DSD and either kept in that domain or processed in analog or at DXD levels (although I'm a bit skeptical that DXD preserves everything that DSD 2x has to offer), even with a PCM playback DAC, i.e. forcing your audiophile software to do the real-time DSD-PCM conversion. This is what I found with my old M-Audio FastTrack Pro card which can do 96KHz/24-bit, i.e. I still found a definite improvement with DSD being converted to PCM through Audirvana compared to pure PCM.

 

However, interpreting DSD as native is something else altogether... A higher level in quality!

 

I gather the level after that is having something like the Lampizator DAC which does native DSD through tubes.

 

I have a setup which is not as good but which comes close architecturally (I can't say aurally, as I haven't heard the Lampizator).

[YashN]

Before getting excited about the DSD feature of a DAC, you should be aware that there won't be a huge flow of DSD downloads in the future (IMHO)

 

Almost all of the currently available DSD downloads are late by-products of previous SACD releases/reissues. When it comes to reissues of old analogue recordings, if no SACD is planned, the mastering engineer opts for PCM. It could be that Sony - which has archived it's analogue tapes in DSD - will offer DSD downloads in the future, but so far the only Sony albums available as DSD files are those previously released on SACD.

 

On the other hand, if you are ripping your SACDs or downloading SACD rips (which is not legit of course), you may have plenty of DSD music to use that feature of the DAC.

 

You have a point to some extent, but take into account that DSD playback can be made in such a way that it doesn't degrade reproduction as most PCM playback does, having to do with filters and so on...

 

I think there were already signs that DSD would increase in availability since last year with Chad Kassem's announcement at RMAF to support DSD downloads, Sony getting into the fray, and NativeDSD as well as everything iFi has done and is still doing with Thorsten and the rest of the team. Cookie with Blue Coast has yet another pioneering approach.

[Musicophile]

You have a point to some extent, but take into account that DSD playback can be made in such a way that it doesn't degrade reproduction as most PCM playback does, having to do with filters and so on...

 

I think there were already signs that DSD would increase in availability since last year with Chad Kassem's announcement at RMAF to support DSD downloads, Sony getting into the fray, and NativeDSD as well as everything iFi has done and is still doing with Thorsten and the rest of the team. Cookie with Blue Coast has yet another pioneering approach.

To defend CatManDo's viewpoint, IMHO the simple reason why PCM will remain the mainstay and DSD a niche is the fact that editing DSD digitally still is nearly impossible. So DSD is great for new transfers of old analog tapes, we'll certainly see more of this, and if you record classical music and do not want to do a lot of editing on it. Beyond this, I expect 24/96 to become the new standard high-res format.

 

That said, I'm still considering getting one of the new DSD DACs to complement my current PCM DAC, as I'd be curious to see what all the DSD lovers make such a fuzz about.

[wisnon]

To defend CatManDo's viewpoint, IMHO the simple reason why PCM will remain the mainstay and DSD a niche is the fact that editing DSD digitally still is nearly impossible. So DSD is great for new transfers of old analog tapes, we'll certainly see more of this, and if you record classical music and do not want to do a lot of editing on it. Beyond this, I expect 24/96 to become the new standard high-res format.

 

That said, I'm still considering getting one of the new DSD DACs to complement my current PCM DAC, as I'd be curious to see what all the DSD lovers make such a fuzz about.

Make sure you get a good one and buckle up! As a classical music lover you will be in paradise.

 

Just get something like a Lampi of an iDSD or Exasound or even a Mytek…a dac that does DSD right, not one of those PCM centric Dacs that treats DSD as the red-headed stepchild.

[bmoura]

Cuz, at least in the case of DSD Edit Masters, they don't have to go through the SACD authoring stage and then transferred to a disc.

 

True. I'm told that another reason that DSD Downloads sound better than say a PS3 rip is that the PS3 process is copying the files at 4x speed which apparently compromises the accuracy of the copy.

 

There have been comparisons of various media, including PS3 rips, at audio shows where the PS3 rips don't fare well vs. downloads and vinyl LPs of the same album.

[spdif-usb]

Omitting native DSD support from DAC products helps to keep them affordable, so DSD limits DAC choices if you are not, or barely, interested in the format. Not everyone wants to listen to jazz and or classical. I don't listen to these musical genres often enough for me to be able to see DSD as a worthy alternative to PCM. From a technical point of view, DSD is an inefficient format when compared to PCM, which is also the main reason why they invented DXD. There's the editing issue, as others have stated, but there's also the fact filesizes are considerably larger regardless of whether lossless data compression will be applied, and, personally, I, do not think DSD sounds better. Part of the reason why I don't think it sounds better is due to personal preference, but another part of the reason comes from the fact DSD has been, and still mostly is, extremely aggressively marketed in an attempt to cover up the not so very wonderful mathematical truths about DSD.

 

Libshitz, S. P., Vanderkooy, J. - Pulse Code Modulation an Overview

[spdif-usb]

True. I'm told that another reason that DSD Downloads sound better than say a PS3 rip is that the PS3 process is copying the files at 4x speed which apparently compromises the accuracy of the copy.

 

There have been comparisons of various media, including PS3 rips, at audio shows where the PS3 rips don't fare well vs. downloads and vinyl LPs of the same album.

If you have bought the exact same SACD disc multiple times or if you know several people who also own the exact same SACD as you then all it takes to find out the statistical truth is a few more PS3 machines and a little piece of software that can be used to, bit for bit, compare the digital contents of the files, similar to how AccurateRip works for Redbook CDs.

 

(Also keep in mind that those who are aggressively marketing DSD downloads might not very much like the fact an SACD can be ripped........).

[One and a half]

Just get something like a Lampi of an iDSD or Exasound or even a Mytek…a dac that does DSD right, not one of those PCM centric Dacs that treats DSD as the red-headed stepchild.

 

I like redheads, which DACs treat DSD with disdain... (Benchmark, PS audio...??)

[Paul R]

so if one owns a sacd collection and has been through the process of ripping to iso (legal in some countries) and then to dff (that stage makes a big difference ; don't let A+ do the slicing on fly) he should still buy the downloads (i.e. the Analogue Productions) to get a better sound by a good margin ?

 

btw, since I'm posting, I back the TEAC 501 but no form of conversion.

 

 

A friend ripped our SACD copy of _Jeff Wayne's Musical Version of The War of the Worlds_ for us and it sounds absolutely incredible through the iFi DACs. Far better than when it is played on an Oppo105.

 

I do not know why, but note that as a verifiable fact. I might suggest that the RIP was done carefully by a person with a lot of experience as one reason. Whatever the actual reasons might be, it sold me on DSD sounding better, at least potentially, than Redbook PCM can.

 

I personlly think DSD playback on our systems sounds getter than any high res PCM we have played back here too. Obviously, the fact that Redbook PCM converted, on the fly or offline, sounds better to us here has some input into that opinion.

[CatManDo]

A friend ripped our SACD copy of _Jeff Wayne's Musical Version of The War of the Worlds_ for us and it sounds absolutely incredible through the iFi DACs. Far better than when it is played on an Oppo105.

 

To do a meaningful comparision, you should play the DSD files on the Oppo as well.

[Paul R]

To do a meaningful comparision, you should play the DSD files on the Oppo as well.

 

The Oppo does DSD via USB input? I did not think it accepted DSD, neither bit streamed or as DoP. Have to try it.

 

Paul