My deep dive into media storage interfaces: Musical differences heard between chipsets, Firewire 400/800, USB, SATA, flash drives, SD cards, and network shares (Warning: may cause seizures in the DBT crowd and flat earth naysayers)

[Superdad]

Tranz and Roch:

 

Thank you both for your replies and insights. Since I am very pleased with the sound and convenience of having the trimmed OS and apps on the SD card (I'm still back and forth about if I like to run A+ from RAM disk), my goal is to find the best sounding solution for about 1TB of music storage/playback.

 

It seems like it comes down to two options:

1) SATA SSD on external Thunderbolt adapter;

2) Tranz's mod to extend internal SATA bus to outside the machine, which also allows external powering of the SSD.

 

The fact that Thunderbolt on the Mac mini runs under the SATA bus tree leads me to think that the above two choices could sound very close (assuming OS still from SD, the SSD just for music), though the Tranz's separate, clean power for the external SSD could likely give it the advantage.

 

Unfortunately, Tranz's mod is not pretty. I want to examine the square PCB connector to see if mating ones are available for cable termination. Then cutting a slot in the side of the mini case to run just a shielded e-SATA data cable would help the set up.

 

And regardless of SATA cable or Thunderbolt, large SSD drives are not cheap!

 

I wish the Seagate TB adapter I just ordered had a second Thunderbolt port to allow daisy chaining. That way, I could have best/most important albums on an affordable 256GB SSD as the first drive, and on a much larger Thunderbolt attached hard disk drive.

 

I think I need to revisit the sound of network storage attachment. One idea I want to try is to run the Cat6 cable from the music server directly to an old G4 mini (I have a pile of those) and set that up to share a whole drive of music. That way it does not even go through my Cisco switch. Curious if that will sound better. Only trouble it, my music mini is always headless--controlled by screen sharing, so I'd have to work around that.

 

Regards,

ALEX C.

[mayhem13]

Hi Alex,

 

 

 

 

Perhaps this is another reason why the SD card route sounds so good, since you have less cables that can act as antennae.

 

Cheers

 

So what broadcasts might the cables be receiving? Since we're talking digital transmission of data, would these transmissions be inserting data or viral transmissions that delete data?

[sandyk]

So what broadcasts might the cables be receiving? Since we're talking digital transmission of data, would these transmissions be inserting data or viral transmissions that delete data?

 

I get a small improvement in SQ simply by replacing generic SATA cables draped over part of the motherboard with more direct (shorter) SATA3 6GBs screened cables . Not that I expect you to believe that (smile)

Alex

[elcorso]

So what broadcasts might the cables be receiving? Since we're talking digital transmission of data, would these transmissions be inserting data or viral transmissions that delete data?

 

Once upon a time, before the cellular phones era, there was a lot of short wave radios in the air. A bastard neighbor, about a block away from my home had a powerful radio station and he used to talk lot on Saturday evenings when I was listening to music, well, I listened him talking clearly through my speakers...

 

Roch

[elcorso]

I wish the Seagate TB adapter I just ordered had a second Thunderbolt port to allow daisy chaining. That way, I could have best/most important albums on an affordable 256GB SSD as the first drive, and on a much larger Thunderbolt attached hard disk drive.

 

Regards,

ALEX C.

 

The Seagate adapter for the portable drive has only one. Only the Seagate adapter for backup plus desktop drives has two, for daisy chaining.

 

Best,

 

Roch

 

PS/ I believe you don't need to power the external Tunb adapter and SSD with an additional LPSU, if your Mac LPSU is good enough.

[Superdad]

The Seagate adapter for the portable drive has only one. Only the Seagate adapter for backup plus desktop drives has two, for daisy chaining.

 

At first I was surprised you'd say that since I don't think the Seagate desktop version takes 2.5" SSDs. Then I realized that it would just need to be the first device and the SSD would plug into HD unit. Great idea! I like the idea of having my best music on a portable SSD, for safe keeping and traveling.

Too bad Seagate does not make some SSD sled shell to fit--the model you and I have--like their HD does.

[tranz]

So what broadcasts might the cables be receiving? Since we're talking digital transmission of data, would these transmissions be inserting data or viral transmissions that delete data?

 

 

Just run a simple EMI/RFI meter over the MacMini and you can see it is quite noisy when running.

 

Cheers

[esldude]

 

Just run a simple EMI/RFI meter over the MacMini and you can see it is quite noisy when running.

 

Cheers

 

Yeah that is why they are so much better than PC's.

 

A friend had been running a Win7 netbook within 10 inches of his phono stage without any obvious issues. Replaced it with a Mac Mini (he is a Mac guy). Started having a number of odd problems in his phono stage. Of course it was due to the signals coming from his Mac Mini. I as a short term measure grounded an aluminum plate and placed it between them to get his phono up and running again. Eventually moved his phono 10 feet to the other side of the room. Thank you Mac. Superlative superior design and implementation.

 

I agree they are pretty noisy. Not sure it matters in most circumstances. But with a tubed phono, the high impedances involved, and close proximity the Mini polluted the signal. Maybe a cheap netbook is superior as it had much lower EMI.

[tranz]

Yeah that is why they are so much better than PC's... Thank you Mac. Superlative superior design and implementation...

 

Yup, they are great at marketing, sexy packaging and charging a premium for it. I tried to find just the motherboard, but could not find it sold alone. The MacMini is just not inherently built for music server duty and I had to tear it apart to get rid of the fatiguing factor. If it were not for Amarra, which in itself is a pain in the arse, I would have stayed with PCs. It is all part of the hobby, I guess.

[Freann]

@elsdude: Ok, lets get some things straight. The built in power supply in the mac mini is the culprit. Try placing the big external power supply from you friends netbook beside the phono stage and see what happens...

[Superdad]

Maybe a cheap netbook is superior as it had much lower EMI.

 

All personal computers must conform to the same conducted and radiated emissions standards. Not to say that they can't be designed to emit even less. And as Freann points out, the switching PS is the culprit in the case of the mini. Hold the PS brick of the laptop near his phono stage and you will see. Perhaps your friends phono stage design could stand to have a tiny extra capacitor somewhere to improve its immunity.

[elcorso]

At first I was surprised you'd say that since I don't think the Seagate desktop version takes 2.5" SSDs. Then I realized that it would just need to be the first device and the SSD would plug into HD unit. Great idea! I like the idea of having my best music on a portable SSD, for safe keeping and traveling.

Too bad Seagate does not make some SSD sled shell to fit--the model you and I have--like their HD does.

 

Yes, the Seagate desktop Tunb adapter version takes 2.5" SSDs. It's a standard SATA HD connector, the only problem could be it's not bus powered, then, came with a SPSU.

 

Roch

[esldude]

@elsdude: Ok, lets get some things straight. The built in power supply in the mac mini is the culprit. Try placing the big external power supply from you friends netbook beside the phono stage and see what happens...

 

It would turn my Netbook into a Mac? That is okay, no thanks.

 

Yes, well for audio use, it would appear the built in noise source is a negative on the Mini. Likely the Mini needs to be further away. I guess it likely the Mini puts more junk on all of its buses vs a machine with external PS. Sounds like a design issue to me for audio use. Nor does it sound like that fact is in opposition to the idea in tranz's post that Mini's are noisy.

 

I knew the likely reason it was noisy. My friend only cared that something be done about it. Had it occurred to me before hand I would have suggested placing the Mini in a different location. As usual he got the mini, plugged it in to replace his temp netbook and everything was fine until he played LP's.

[Superdad]

Yes, the Seagate desktop Tunb adapter version takes 2.5" SSDs. It's a standard SATA HD connector, the only problem could be it's not bus powered, then, came with a SPSU.

 

Roch

 

Hi Roch: Can you confirm though that the Seagate Backup Plus Desktop version normally uses 3.5" hard drives (in Seagate's plastic cases I know) versus 2.5" drives? Strangely, such a basic fact about which size drives are in these enclosures is not so easy to find on the web. Based on capacities offered (3TB and 4TB), I think it safe to assume that the desktop units come with 3.5" drives.

 

Still, it is nice to know that the connector sticking up on the desktop version is still a standard SATA. Now I am wondering if I could buy just the Thundebolt desktop base and be able to plug in any of my many 3.5" SATA hard drives (with perhaps a big rubber band and spacer behind to keep the drive secure.

[Audio_ELF]

Superdad ... Have you seen the LaCie Thunderbolt eSATA "hub"?

[Daudio]

It would turn my Netbook into a Mac? That is okay, no thanks.

 

Dennis, Don't you have your own thread to attend to, rather then dropping in here and being snarky ?

[esldude]

Dennis, Don't you have your own thread to attend to, rather then dropping in here and being snarky ?

 

Not welcome here then am I? Even after all the snarky posts by those who simply couldn't bring themselves to just answer the question in the other thread. Oh well, guess I can live with that.

[Superdad]

Superdad ... Have you seen the LaCie Thunderbolt eSATA "hub"?

 

I have, thanks. I would then have to use one of the quad-port OWC enclosures I have with eSATA. I don't like the units with multiple ports--although maybe the eSATA connection would be very quiet.

 

If I get one of the Seagate adapters (well I now have the portable one for 2.5" SATA devices), I can also take a $3, shielded SATA-to-eSATA cable and connect that to one of my eSATA enclosures. More flexibility. Or I can just plug SATA drives to these bases.

 

Lastly, over the years I have had so many negative experiences with LaCie--both the products and the company since they have been bought and sold multiple time (I did business with the very nice founding family, the Kamermans, 15+ years ago), that I try to avoid purchasing that brand. The irony is, Seagate bought out LaCie last year.

[Superdad]

Not welcome here then am I? Even after all the snarky posts by those who simply couldn't bring themselves to just answer the question in the other thread. Oh well, guess I can live with that.

 

You are most welcome here Dennis. Facts and experiences are what this thread is all about. But random dumping on Apple designs/value/etc. does not really contribute much.

 

Yes, the Mac mini is compromised for positioning next to sensitive components due to it having the switching supply built into the box. Kind of like a typical desktop PC. Laptops don't keep their noisy switchers inside the machine, but they have other compromises built in.

 

It is also a simple procedure to remove the SMPS from a mini and run with a nice, quiet, 12V/5A external supply.

[elcorso]

Hi Roch: Can you confirm though that the Seagate Backup Plus Desktop version normally uses 3.5" hard drives (in Seagate's plastic cases I know) versus 2.5" drives? Strangely, such a basic fact about which size drives are in these enclosures is not so easy to find on the web. Based on capacities offered (3TB and 4TB), I think it safe to assume that the desktop units come with 3.5" drives.

 

Still, it is nice to know that the connector sticking up on the desktop version is still a standard SATA. Now I am wondering if I could buy just the Thundebolt desktop base and be able to plug in any of my many 3.5" SATA hard drives (with perhaps a big rubber band and spacer behind to keep the drive secure.

 

Fort he case size it should be a 3.5" HD. I didn't installed it yet... Last night, and partially today, I was moving my music library to the DataTale 4 HD Thunderbolt enclosure in Raid 1 mode, from my Firewire drives, at Firewire speed limit, then takes a lot of time...

 

Standard SATA connectors are the same for 2.5" & 3.5" HD, the only different one, as today, is mSata, for the smaller SSD (almost double the size of SDXC card). Or the oldies IDE hard drives.

 

BTW, I like better the SQ from the DataTale Thunderbolt SATA drives than from the previous Firewire drives (and no, I'm not smoking nothing...).

 

Good night & Happy Thanksgiving Day for everyone!

 

Roch

[tranz]

Putting distance between any computer and analog or DAC equipment is recommended. Due to the sensitivity of a record player's pickup it is a good testing mechanism for checking on EMI noise, shielding impact and physical distancing.

 

And now back to the regular program...

[esldude]

You are most welcome here Dennis. Facts and experiences are what this thread is all about. But random dumping on Apple designs/value/etc. does not really contribute much.

 

Yes, the Mac mini is compromised for positioning next to sensitive components due to it having the switching supply built into the box. Kind of like a typical desktop PC. Laptops don't keep their noisy switchers inside the machine, but they have other compromises built in.

 

It is also a simple procedure to remove the SMPS from a mini and run with a nice, quiet, 12V/5A external supply.

 

Thanks for confirming I am welcome in your thread. And I guess it could be considered I dumped on Apple products. But mainly I gave genuine details of one Mac Mini. Not my fault they put the power supply in a bad place for audio use.

 

My complaint with Apple products is really only one thing. I hate their interfaces and their whole philosophy of how to interact with software. I realize that is exactly what others like, but somehow it just gets in my way. There version of easy and simple doesn't suit me. But hey, I prefer Linux. I know it isn't normal.

[Superdad]

My complaint with Apple products is really only one thing. I hate their interfaces and their whole philosophy of how to interact with software. I realize that is exactly what others like, but somehow it just gets in my way. There version of easy and simple doesn't suit me. But hey, I prefer Linux.

 

Well Linux is okay. At least you didn't say you prefer the Windows philosophy. Then I would have written you off entirely!

 

(Just kidding all you Windows lovers out there! I grew up working in the computer industry--even turned down a job offer from Paul Allen when I was barely 21--so I lived the entire MS/Apple/IBM/Atari, etc. evolution. Most of the excitement of UNIX/Linux came after I left the industry to devote my soul to audio, so I am light on that experience. SCO (Santa Cruz Operation) and Sun Microsystems were the last UNIX OSs I got dirty with. Early GUI days those…)

[Jud]

But hey, I prefer Linux.

 

We can get a good vi vs. emacs thread going, make our most fractious audio discussions look like a tea party.

[hanover33]

 

It is also a simple procedure to remove the SMPS from a mini and run with a nice, quiet, 12V/5A external supply.

 

Hey Superdad, I'm new here and would like your advice on how to do this? I have a Mac Mini Server (latest version). I think it sounds very good already but would like to explore improvements, have great Naim kit and speakers that are very revealing and have been having fun doing upgrades....

 

If this is best taken offline my email is [email protected].

 

Kind regards,

Marty