Daft Punk - Random Access Memories (HDTracks)

[vinylphile]

 

Too bad you are not getting the same kind of enjoyment from the HD tracks version...

 

Actually I didn't buy the HDTracks version - been burned too many times before - just checked the DR Database and decided to go with the vinyl, which is far less compressed and I have no doubt it sounds better.

 

As I said, I've been burned in the past - the most notable example Rush, Clockwork Angels - downloaded that one on HDTracks on release day and couldn't believe how AWFUL it sounded...then bought the vinyl and it sounded so much better that it was shocking. Still not a great-sounding recording but immeasurably better than the 24/96 HDTracks download. Actually...I said "immeasurably" - but in fact it is at least in part measurable - just look at the DR data!

 

Now...why couldn't HDTracks insist on the better / less compressed master for that recording? If I wanted a compressed mess I could have purchased from iTunes for half the price!

 

I disagree that compression only negatively affects classical and jazz. Rock music also uses instruments - and I play in a rock band so I'm intimately familiar with what it is supposed to sound like. Guitars, bass, drums, keyboards...these things all have a sound. Listen to the vinyl of the Daft Punk - there is a soundstage, there is life to the recording. All this compression robs the music of its life...all in my opinion, of course. It'll sound fine on an ipod or in your car - because that is what the compression is designed to do...but I have yet to come across an example of a lower DR number yielding better sound on a high quality home stereo.

[vinylphile]

Just a comment: for once, HD trakcs isn't to blame. The 24/88 is the master that, according to the interview with the Mastering engineer (in French) I've posted above, all other versions, including Itunes and Vinyl, are derived from.

 

The same engineer also explicitly said that the compression was added at request of Thomas Bangalter of DaftPunk to add more "punch". I agree with MikeJazz that a 100% electronic recording like this shouldn't be judged the same way like a regular acoustic recordings.

 

Ah...but this recording isn't really "electronica". There are real instruments in there...and they need to sound like real instruments.

 

And are you sure the vinyl is from the same master? The DR data would suggest otherwise. Average DR on all digital - including the HDTracks - is in the 5-6 range...while it is 10-11 for the vinyl.

[MikeJazz]

Ah...but this recording isn't really "electronica". There are real instruments in there...and they need to sound like real instruments.

 

True, there are real instruments and real players (Nathan East plays the bass in many tracks). But they are not recorded in the same way Nathan is recorded in Fourplay! It would make no sense and the "80's disco-almost-low-fi" kind of ambiance that is a key feature on "RAM" and not even related to Fourplay sound in any way! Again, separate worlds...

 

There are real instruments in Bob Dylan, Neil Young records, and even if there are instruments in common they are record and mixed differently, because they are subjected to the idea the Daft Punk have for their sound.

After all it's their prerogative to find their sound!

 

What I was arguing is that that sound is more related to the way they are produced (recorded, mixed and mastered) and much less depending on of the compression is a DR10 or a DR12!

 

And are you sure the vinyl is from the same master? The DR data would suggest otherwise. Average DR on all digital - including the HDTracks - is in the 5-6 range...while it is 10-11 for the vinyl.

 

At least, from the interview it seems that the source is the master from Bob Ludwig for all "Platforms"...

 

I agree with your that compression in the 5-6 seems ridicule...

 

I will measure my copy but in my system I can comfortably listen at 72 (0-100 scale of Lyngdorf) and I was surprised by that, as generally, I cannot listen to high compressed records above 62, 65...

[MikeJazz]

 

I agree with your that compression in the 5-6 seems ridicule...

 

I will measure my copy but in my system I can comfortably listen at 72 (0-100 scale of Lyngdorf) and I was surprised by that, as generally, I cannot listen to high compressed records above 62, 65...

 

Just measured DR9 for track 1. Not shocked!

 

Edit: JRMC shows that "Replay Gain" would attenuate the same track 1 by 11,93 dB!

[vinylphile]

Just measured DR9 for track 1. Not shocked!

 

Edit: JRMC shows that "Replay Gain" would attenuate the same track 1 by 11,93 dB!

 

Could be - your post had me go and recheck the numbers on the DR database - indeed I was looking at the wrong column - i was looking at min DR instead of average DR. In fact the HDTracks shows DR values of 8 average; 6 minimum; 9 maximum. Conversely the vinyl shows values of 13/11/15.

 

And your number does correlate with the first track measurement on the DR database.

 

But the vinyl release of that track has a DR15!

[MikeJazz]

But the vinyl release of that track has a DR15!

 

Looking forward to listen to the vinyl someday, or a good quality rip from it.

[Paul R]

(grin) Listen to the commentary three or four tracks down. It's a rather interesting glimpse inside their musical philosophy.

 

In any case, it is a decidedly *good* album!

 

-Paul

 

 

Ah...but this recording isn't really "electronica". There are real instruments in there...and they need to sound like real instruments.

 

And are you sure the vinyl is from the same master? The DR data would suggest otherwise. Average DR on all digital - including the HDTracks - is in the 5-6 range...while it is 10-11 for the vinyl.

[c-eling]

I don't trust the DR range for vinyl, pops and clicks will give it false readings, most if not all of my newly released albums on vinyl have been between 10-12 (After de/clicking)

[Musicophile]

Just a comment: for once, HD trakcs isn't to blame. The 24/88 is the master that, according to the interview with the Mastering engineer (in French) I've posted above, all other versions, including Itunes and Vinyl, are derived from.

 

The same engineer also explicitly said that the compression was added at request of Thomas Bangalter of DaftPunk to add more "punch". I agree with MikeJazz that a 100% electronic recording like this shouldn't be judged the same way like a regular acoustic recordings.

 

Ah...but this recording isn't really "electronica". There are real instruments in there...and they need to sound like real instruments.

 

And are you sure the vinyl is from the same master? The DR data would suggest otherwise. Average DR on all digital - including the HDTracks - is in the 5-6 range...while it is 10-11 for the vinyl.

I'm not sure, just quoting from the interview with the mastering engineer.

[Blake]

Ah...but this recording isn't really "electronica". There are real instruments in there...and they need to sound like real instruments.

 

Not a big deal, but "electronica" is a very broad category, composed of dozens and dozens for sub-genres (folktronica, dubstep, triphop, laptronica, downtempo, ambient, house, techno, intelligent dance music, blip, witchcore, etc.). Daft Punk absolutely falls under the Electronica umbrella.

 

Lots of artists/bands that fall under the large umbrella of "Electronica," incorporate "real" instruments (pianos, traditional drums, guitar), vocals, found-sounds, etc. The fact that Daft Punk may incorporate "real" instruments does not remove them from the Electronica umbrella.

[vinylphile]

I don't trust the DR range for vinyl, pops and clicks will give it false readings, most if not all of my newly released albums on vinyl have been between 10-12 (After de/clicking)

 

Could be - but my admittedly subjective impression is that the resultant sound quality does correlate with those numbers.

 

How do you know that your "declicking" isn't also removing good stuff, thereby artificially lowering the DR? I might be inclined to trust your "declicked" numbers even less. And if you look at the published DR data, almost every track has a DR of around 5 higher in the vinyl vs. the digital. If this were really because of the clicks I don't think we'd be seeing this correlation.

 

In my experience, with high end analogue equipment and new, high quality vinyl, clicking is not really an issue.

[vinylphile]

Not a big deal, but "electronica" is a very broad category, composed of dozens and dozens for sub-genres (folktronica, dubstep, triphop, laptronica, downtempo, continental dread, ambient, intelligent dance music, blip, witchcore, etc.). Daft Punk absolutely falls under the Electronica umbrella.

 

Lots of artists/bands that fall under the large umbrella of "Electronica," incorporate "real" instruments (pianos, drums, guitar), vocals, found-sounds, etc. The fact that Daft Punk may incorporate "real" instruments does not remove them from the Electronica umbrella.

 

I see your point. But it is largely a semantic argument. I'm merely making the point that there are true, live acoustic instruments in there that would benefit from a greater dynamic range - i.e. excessive compression would (or at least could) have adverse results. Based on my listening experience there ain't a genre of music out there that benefits from "mastered for itunes" - at least when a high quality home stereo is in use.

[Blake]

I'm merely making the point that there are true, live acoustic instruments in there that would benefit from a greater dynamic range - i.e. excessive compression would (or at least could) have adverse results.

 

No worries, just a small nit I thought I would point out. I totally agree with your comments with respect to DR.

[vinylphile]

I'm not sure, just quoting from the interview with the mastering engineer.

 

Baahhhh...what does he know?!

 

Kidding of course!

[cheezmo]

And are you sure the vinyl is from the same master? The DR data would suggest otherwise. Average DR on all digital - including the HDTracks - is in the 5-6 range...while it is 10-11 for the vinyl.

 

That which can be compressed can also be expanded. It should be possible to create a higher DR by reversing the process of compressing. So a higher DR vinyl could be created from a low DR master.

[vinylphile]

That which can be compressed can also be expanded. It should be possible to create a higher DR by reversing the process of compressing. So a higher DR vinyl could be created from a low DR master.

 

Not sure I follow. How can you create dynamics that aren't there or that have been removed?

[Julf]

That which can be compressed can also be expanded. It should be possible to create a higher DR by reversing the process of compressing. So a higher DR vinyl could be created from a low DR master.

 

Theorethically, yes, if it is really compression and not limiting, and if you know the (usually frequency-dependent) compression curves. Unfortunately hard limiting is often used as well, and that is definitely non-reversible.

[junker]

Yeah HDTracks has very little to no pull with the studios. They are such a minor revenue stream for them, and we all know how poorly they have managed technology and their product i.e. Tower Records, Blockbluster, Napster, Limewire, and Kazaa... Now they aren't sure how to manage streaming and have their own ponies (Spotify and iHeart Radio) to try to capture that market. I'm not sure they even have lossless - or high-res - on the radar.

[cheezmo]

I said it was possible, I didn't say it would be pretty!

 

Theorethically, yes, if it is really compression and not limiting, and if you know the (usually frequency-dependent) compression curves. Unfortunately hard limiting is often used as well, and that is definitely non-reversible.

[Julf]

I said it was possible, I didn't say it would be pretty!

 

[vinylphile]

I said it was possible, I didn't say it would be pretty!

 

Well...judging from the sound quality - I'm sure that this is not what was done to the vinyl mix. The sound quality of the vinyl is beyond pretty - it's absolutely stunning.​

[Musicophile]

I see your point. But it is largely a semantic argument. I'm merely making the point that there are true, live acoustic instruments in there that would benefit from a greater dynamic range - i.e. excessive compression would (or at least could) have adverse results.

In any case, what you listening to is what Daft Punk wants you to listen to, the mastering engineer described in the interview above how actively they were involved in the process.

[vinylphile]

In any case, what you listening to is what Daft Punk wants you to listen to, the mastering engineer described in the interview above how actively they were involved in the process.

 

And unless the musicians are audiophiles listening to the music on high quality stereos, this is nearly always a recipe for sonic disaster!

[CatManDo]

Let's hope there will one day be an audiophile remake of the album, recorded with acoustic instruments, in a church, directly to DSD.

[Musicophile]

And unless the musicians are audiophiles listening to the music on high quality stereos, this is nearly always a recipe for sonic disaster!

Well, this is what they were mastering on:

 

chabmastering -

 

So at least they should have had a chance of getting an idea what it sounds like. But then, the Daft Punk probably indeed aren't audiophiles.