Michael Jackson's Thriller released on HDtracks

[Roman880]

Michael Jackson's Thriller was released recently on HDtracks (in 24/176 and 24/88.2):

https://www.hdtracks.com/index.php?file=artistdetail&id=10430

 

I haven't bitten yet. Has anyone given it a listen yet? How does it sound? Is this the same master from the cca. 2000 SACD release?

 

I'd like to buy it, but want to hear some feedback first; I've been disappointed by HDtracks' offerings in the past.

[Synfreak]

I'm pretty sure that this has been transfered from the SACD (as other Sony HDTracks releases, like Dave Brubecks Take Five).

 

If so - and if the DSD to PCM convertion has been done with care *) - it is a no brainer.

IMHO one of the best transfers available of this recording.

Maybe a bit more limited/compressed as the first issued CD, but with a bit more ooohhhmmmp to the bass, and better resolution/detail.

 

*) the analogue to DSD mastering was done at VERY HIGH levels, which not only exceed the -6db margin usually applied to DSD recordings, but even exceeds (at some very short peaks) the absolute DSD modulation maxima.

So it wuld be interesting how the transfer has been done ...

[One and a half]

Well the cover doesn't show SACD, should tell us something. The SACD is very good indeed, ripped even better to a native DSD DAC.

Any PCM version couldn't compete.

[frederick184]

I downloaded it. The PDF of the cover says "transferred from DSD" or something similar. I haven't had time to critically listen to it yet unfortunately. I have the 24/88.2 version.

 

Colin

[GammaG]

I have a couple of questions that perhaps someone can answer. I was looking on the HD tracks dot com website, and found the Michael Jackson Thriller album. It is available for download in Audiophile at 176 kHz/24bit and also 88 kHz/24bit. I had bought this cd years ago, and I would believe that it is a standard 44.1 kHz/16bit format. Here are my questions:

 

1. Considering that I have J River MC and am using an external dac connected by USB from pc to dac that is capable of up to 196kHz/24bit, would I get the better sound by downloading the 176kHz/24bit file versus the 88kHz/24 bit file?

 

2. I see that HD tracks are offering an option of downloading in 4 different file formats. Options are aiff, alac, flac, and wav formats. Should I download the flac format as I have Windows XP/7 as OS?

 

3. Would this be a waste of money to get the higher resolution format download from HD tracks, as I already own this cd in 44.1 kHz/16bit?

 

I guess what it comes down to is the SQ I am looking for. I did read over Chris's configuring the dbpoweramp program correctly. I am wondering if I could perhaps rip this Thriller cd to flac, and then convert it to the formats that are offered at HD tracks. I am uncertain if this would be the same. Any help would be appreciated!

[Synfreak]

@ GammaG:

 

to 1:

I tend not to hear (easy to spot) differences between, say, 88,2/24 or 176,4/24 files (sourced from the same master!).

So I would play safe and get the 88,2/24 version, as this was sourced/transfered from analogue tape to DSD.

ut others may disagree here, so it will be up to you ...

 

to 2:

Yes, you might want to get the FLAC files in your case

 

to 3:

For me, the MOST important point is the mastering- (and recording-) quality. That can make quite huge differences.

So it depends on what quality the mastering on your CD is, first. If it is not one of the first issues of this album on CD (mid 80ies), you will most likely own a quite compressed (very loud) mastered CD. If so, go get this download ;-)

[GammaG]

@ Synfreak:

 

Thanks for your input! I am wondering if I do download the 88.2 kHz/24bit files, I guess I could always convert it to 176 kHz/196kHz-24bit with dbpoweramp to see if it makes a difference?

 

The Thriller cd that I have by Michael Jackson is the special edition one. The disc itself is black with gold writing and the play side is gold. It shows on the label side 1982, 2001MJJ Productions Inc. It has a logo of Epic, which appears to be a trademark of Sony Music Entertainment Inc. I was reading on the back of the plastic cd holder and it says that it was re-mastered by Bernie Grundman, Los Angeles, California. Perhaps this info might tell if it is a good recording or I need to get the one from HD tracks-lol

[Synfreak]

Hi GammaG!

 

The "Gold CD" you mention above is the 2001 "Special Edition" with added bonus tracks / interviews ...

I do own that one, too.

It has been mastered quite loud/compressed, but does not as sound as bad as one might think ... (Thriller just needs a bit of ooohhmmp, doesnt it?)

 

But from an audiophile (sic!) point of view, the SACD/DSD mastering s far superior.

 

I will post the dynamic range analysis later, so if someone who has got the HDTracks download want to join in, we might be able to sort it out ;-)

[GammaG]

Hi Synfreak!

 

In your opinion, would you say that the SQ of the HD track version would have better clarity as well as what you've described as ooohhmmp-lol

 

I guess if I did download the 88.2 kHz/24bit version, I won't be disappointed!?

 

As far as the thriller cd's we own, I would imagine that by using the dbpoweramp program, one could use the "EQ" and play around with it to get to one's own liking!

 

Thanks again for your relpy!

[Zakus]

Took a punt and downloaded the 24 bit 88.2. SQ is good but not 24 bit, DAC says 16bit 88.2, iTunes says 16 bit 88.2, what gives?

 

PS sent copy post to HDT

[Zakus]

Took a punt and downloaded the 24 bit 88.2. SQ is good but not 24 bit, DAC says 16bit 88.2, iTunes says 16 bit 88.2, what gives?

 

PS sent copy post to HDT

 

Embarassingly, just checked XLD and preferences set to 16 bit!

[GammaG]

Embarassingly, just checked XLD and preferences set to 16 bit!

 

Could you please let me know the SQ after you have reset XLD to 24-bit.

 

Thanks!

[Synfreak]

so, finally ...

for all those interested how the mastering of the Sony SACD - which is most likely used for the HDTracks offer - compares to other / older CDs:

 

First press by EPIC (Japanese CD):

Analyzed: Jackson, Michael / Thriller (Epic Japan)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

DR Peak RMS Duration Track

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR12 -4.85 dB -18.45 dB 6:04 01-Wanna Be Startin' Somethin'

DR13 -4.49 dB -19.74 dB 4:21 02-Baby Be Mine

DR12 -5.71 dB -20.37 dB 3:43 03-The Girl Is Mine

DR13 -4.15 dB -18.66 dB 6:05 04-Thriller

DR13 -5.50 dB -20.63 dB 4:19 05-Beat It

DR14 -4.98 dB -20.18 dB 4:57 06-Billie Jean

DR14 -6.62 dB -21.69 dB 4:06 07-Human Nature

DR13 -5.25 dB -19.74 dB 3:59 08-P. Y. T. (Pretty Young Thing)

DR14 -5.25 dB -23.43 dB 5:01 09-The Lady in My Life

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Number of tracks: 9

Official DR value: DR13

 

2001 Special Edition CD:

Analyzed: Jackson, Michael / Thriller (2001 Remaster / Special Edition)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

DR Peak RMS Duration Track

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR9 -0.10 dB -9.95 dB 6:03 01-Wanna Be Startin' Somethin'

DR9 -0.10 dB -10.81 dB 4:20 02-Baby Be Mine

DR8 -0.10 dB -10.76 dB 3:42 03-The Girl Is Mine

DR9 -0.10 dB -10.24 dB 5:58 04-Thriller

DR8 -0.10 dB -9.20 dB 4:18 05-Beat It

DR8 -0.10 dB -9.44 dB 4:54 06-Billie Jean

DR10 -0.10 dB -10.89 dB 4:06 07-Human Nature

DR9 -0.10 dB -10.42 dB 3:59 08-P.Y.T. (Pretty Young Thing)

DR9 -0.10 dB -12.04 dB 4:59 09-The Lady in My Life

DR11 -0.10 dB -13.67 dB 2:18 10-Interview with Quincy Jones

DR9 -0.12 dB -12.52 dB 4:49 11-Someone in the Dark

DR10 -0.12 dB -13.53 dB 2:04 12-Interview with Quincy Jones

DR8 -0.10 dB -11.03 dB 2:20 13-Billie Jean (Home Demo 1981)

DR12 -0.11 dB -15.16 dB 3:10 14-Interview with Quincy Jones

DR13 -0.55 dB -15.88 dB 4:03 15-Interview with Rod Temperton

DR11 -0.13 dB -14.12 dB 1:33 16-Interview with Quincy Jones

DR13 -1.88 dB -20.23 dB 2:52 17-Voice-Over Session from Thriller

DR14 -1.07 dB -17.85 dB 1:56 18-Interview with Rod Temperton

DR12 -0.13 dB -15.25 dB 2:02 19-Interview with Quincy Jones

DR9 -0.10 dB -10.95 dB 1:50 20-Carousel

DR10 -0.13 dB -13.05 dB 1:18 21-Interview with Quincy Jones

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Number of tracks: 21

Official DR value: DR10

Note that all tracks of the regular album are quite compressed/limited and all peak at -0,10dB ...

 

and here the 1999 SACD:

Analyzed: Jackson, Michael / Thriller (1999 Remaster)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

DR Peak RMS Duration Track

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR12 -3.98 dB -17.52 dB 6:05 01-Wanna Be Startin' Somethin'

DR13 -3.02 dB -18.48 dB 4:20 02-Baby Be Mine

DR12 0.00 dB -17.51 dB 3:42 03-The Girl Is Mine

DR13 -2.88 dB -17.86 dB 5:59 04-Thriller

DR13 0.00 dB -16.07 dB 4:18 05-Beat It

DR16 0.00 dB -17.54 dB 4:54 06-Billie Jean

DR13 -4.00 dB -18.87 dB 4:06 07-Human Nature

DR13 -3.11 dB -17.85 dB 3:58 08-P.Y.T. (Pretty Young Thing)

DR14 -2.08 dB -19.93 dB 4:58 09-The Lady In My Life

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Number of tracks: 9

Official DR value: DR13

Note that three tracks (Nos 3,5 & 6) hit the 0dB mark - these use the maximum possible level for DSD recording.

Its also obvious that this mastering keeps the original dynamics (almost identical to the first press EPIC CD), while it adds some bass extension and better definition/resolution.

 

So, the choice is yours ;-)

[mbain]

Synfreak,

If you have the time and are so inclined could you offer an explanation of the headings "Dr Peak RMS"? This would very much increase my understanding of these matters.

 

Mbain

[Synfreak]

Hi Mbain !

 

I'll try:

 

"DR" stands for "Dynamic Range"

 

Measured with the according Software (foobar PlugIn in my case):

Dynamic range - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Loudness war - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

DYNAMIC RANGE | pleasurize music!

DR Database

 

It represents a "psycho-acousticaly" weighted RMS value which can be used to compare i.e. different masterings (like above)

 

 

"Peak" lsits the maximum level for one track

If the album shows identical (high) peak levels, one could be almost shure that there was some serious limiting used throughout - imho a bad thing, as it will also disroy "song to song dynamics".

 

 

"RMS" = root mean square

Root mean square - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

One might say, this is the basis for the DR calculations, but without the mentioned psycho-acoustical weighting, and without taking the peak levels into consideration.

 

In my book, the difference between the DR ratings and the RMS values shows how much (multi-band) compression was used on the tracks.

In short: the higher these ratings, and the larger the gap between DR and RMS, the more "natural" (ahh - uhhm ...) the musical dynamics where captured.

[GammaG]

Hi Synfreak,

 

Thanks for your time and effort!

 

Would you say after the info that you gathered that the download at HD Tracks would sound better then the cd I have now?

 

Thanks in advance!

[Synfreak]

Hi GammaG!

 

That's hard to say from a subjective point ...

 

But, I would say it's technically - and even aural - in another league.

 

And ... turn up that volume! ;-)

[wisnon]

The DSD rip of this (from SACD) sounds great!

[Jay192]

Synfreak,

If you have the time and are so inclined could you offer an explanation of the headings "Dr Peak RMS"? This would very much increase my understanding of these matters.

 

Mbain

 

also here's an article Winning the Loudness Wars | Stereophile.com

[GammaG]

The DSD rip of this (from SACD) sounds great!

 

Hi Wisnon!

 

Do you know if the download of the Thriller album from HD Tracks is ripped this way?

 

Thanks

[labjr]

Hi Wisnon!

 

Do you know if the download of the Thriller album from HD Tracks is ripped this way?

 

Thanks

 

The result would be the same whether they ripped the SACD or used the studio DSD files. The problem is that they then convert it to PCM using SARACON or some other software and there is a loss. Seems to me that most everything that's 88.2 and 176.4 is done this way.

[Roman880]

Lots written on this thread, but back to the original question: Has anyone heard the actual HDTracks version of Thriller?

[wisnon]

Hi Wisnon!

 

Do you know if the download of the Thriller album from HD Tracks is ripped this way?

 

Thanks

 

Sorry, I dont know.

[Roman880]

Did a search for more info about the HDTracks release and came across a torrent site purporting to have the HDTracks release for illicit download. On the torrent site, this report was included. I browsed away from the iniquitous torrent purveyor, but not before copying the report pasted in below. I can't vouch for its authenticity, but it looks legit:

 

Analyzed: Michael Jackson / Thriller

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

DR Peak RMS Duration Track

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR12 -3.85 dB -17.49 dB 6:03 01-Wanna Be Startin' Somethin'

DR13 -2.67 dB -18.44 dB 4:20 02-Baby Be Mine

DR13 -1.96 dB -17.54 dB 3:42 03-The Girl Is Mine

DR13 -2.79 dB -17.83 dB 5:59 04-Thriller

DR13 -0.39 dB -16.09 dB 4:18 05-Beat It

DR16 -0.16 dB -17.51 dB 4:54 06-Billie Jean

DR13 -4.08 dB -18.83 dB 4:06 07-Human Nature

DR13 -2.80 dB -17.81 dB 3:58 08-P.Y.T. (Pretty Young Thing)

DR14 -1.42 dB -19.89 dB 4:58 09-The Lady in My Life

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Number of tracks: 9

Official DR value: DR13

 

Samplerate: 176400 Hz

Channels: 2

Bits per sample: 24

Bitrate: 5945 kbps

Codec: FLAC

================================================================================

[Synfreak]

Thanks, Roman880!

 

Analyzed: Michael Jackson / Thriller

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

DR Peak RMS Duration Track

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR12 -3.85 dB -17.49 dB 6:03 01-Wanna Be Startin' Somethin'

DR13 -2.67 dB -18.44 dB 4:20 02-Baby Be Mine

DR13 -1.96 dB -17.54 dB 3:42 03-The Girl Is Mine

DR13 -2.79 dB -17.83 dB 5:59 04-Thriller

DR13 -0.39 dB -16.09 dB 4:18 05-Beat It

DR16 -0.16 dB -17.51 dB 4:54 06-Billie Jean

DR13 -4.08 dB -18.83 dB 4:06 07-Human Nature

DR13 -2.80 dB -17.81 dB 3:58 08-P.Y.T. (Pretty Young Thing)

DR14 -1.42 dB -19.89 dB 4:58 09-The Lady in My Life

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Number of tracks: 9

Official DR value: DR13

 

Samplerate: 176400 Hz

Channels: 2

Bits per sample: 24

Bitrate: 5945 kbps

Codec: FLAC

 

 

My own SACDtoDSD rip has got these ratings (see post above):

Analyzed: Jackson, Michael / Thriller (1999 Remaster)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

DR Peak RMS Duration Track

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR12 -3.98 dB -17.52 dB 6:05 01-Wanna Be Startin' Somethin'

DR13 -3.02 dB -18.48 dB 4:20 02-Baby Be Mine

DR12 0.00 dB -17.51 dB 3:42 03-The Girl Is Mine

DR13 -2.88 dB -17.86 dB 5:59 04-Thriller

DR13 0.00 dB -16.07 dB 4:18 05-Beat It

DR16 0.00 dB -17.54 dB 4:54 06-Billie Jean

DR13 -4.00 dB -18.87 dB 4:06 07-Human Nature

DR13 -3.11 dB -17.85 dB 3:58 08-P.Y.T. (Pretty Young Thing)

DR14 -2.08 dB -19.93 dB 4:58 09-The Lady In My Life

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Number of tracks: 9

Official DR value: DR13

 

There are differences in the absolute levels, as the HDTracks download was converted to PCM at a slighly lower level.

And it will have used a different anti-imaging filter for the conversion, which also tends to leed to small differences.

 

But I'm pretty sure, that the same master - or even the SACD was used for the HDTracks version.

 

And because of that, I'm also pretty sure that it will sound very good!