Using solid core mains wire for speaker cables

[souptin]

For clarity, I mean the mains cable with a single solid copper strand, about 1 mm diameter or so - basically what you use for wiring your house.

 

The reason for reviving this tweak (I think it dates back to the 1980s) is that I recently moved my system to another room, and realised that my DNM speaker cables were way too short. Solid core cables were highly recommended for my speakers (DNM are still in business, and not all that expensive), so I dug out a vintage reel of mains cable from the basement (red, black & green... It was that old!) and wrestled it into position as a short term fix.

 

...and I may just keep it for long term. To be fair, I've done other things which will have helped: Blowing industrial quantities of dust out of my amp (seriously, how does it get in there?); cleaning the contacts; running the "new" ghetto style speaker cables well away from the power cables... etc.

 

I vaguely remember doing the same thing way back when. At the time I recall convincing myself that the proper cables were an improvement, when I could finally afford them. But hey I was young and naive. Nowadays I'm less concerned about the cost than I am about the state of my back if I commit to another round of wire wrestling!

 

So throwing it out there: Anyone else tried using mains wire for their speakers and have an opinion they want to share. Objective and subjective both welcome... But preferably from people who have actually tried for themselves. Googling doesn't count as personal experience, no matter what the hip young things say.

[wgscott]

I do this for my outdoor speakers (14 gauge Romex). I use the stranded version (12 gauge Belden from BlueJeansCable.com) for speaker wire inside.

 

The only problem with solid core is it is really unpleasant to work with. Keep it away from your face and eyes.

[mav52]

I do this for my outdoor speakers (14 gauge Romex). I use the stranded version (12 gauge Belden from BlueJeansCable.com) for speaker wire inside.

 

same cable and the same use. I also found that moles, gophers have a little more difficulty eating through this stuff and I'm about ready to place this cable in 1" PVC to deter these vermin.

[wgscott]

Use a smaller diameter PVC or they will get inside. Seriously.

[TIQA]

this is great idea. this type of cables sound quite good. as mentioned earlier, only thing that its hard to work with.

 

some time ago i did small experiment. i took three cables of CAT5, braided them, striped the endings and divided into "colored" and "whites". obviously one was + and the rest -. i was blown away with clarity that they produced. later i gave them to friend who is into expensive hifi equipment, i didnt say what that was. after few days he called being really excited about them: " i started to hear this and that....i havent heard that before..." i dont need to say that his speaker cables are few times more expensive than all of my system. then i told him what were those cables......he became unusually silent... few months later i braided CAT6 cables for him.

 

on electrical side of this: as one engineer explained that perfect clarity is due to twisted pairs, different turns ratio and fact that each wire is solid core. when multiple wires touch, in that spot are some magnetic variations which can be audible, so solid cores are better, because there aren't any those variations.

 

only thing is that you need to calculate number of cables for your system. more power = more cables. i was enough with 3 cables = 3x2x4 pairs. thats 48 solid wires. for each side of course after all im driving 16ohms

 

for some 4ohm systems you need to do A LOT of cable braiding

[4est]

Use a smaller diameter PVC or they will get inside. Seriously.

 

Yup!

 

I live adjacent to an 80 acre field and let me tell you, mice can get through holes about the size of a chick pea. For some reason critters like to eat the wires. I remember a client whom was very PO'd by his daughter's rabbet eating the wiring in their unfinished basement.

 

As for using it for speakers, well, if you must....

[Metralla]

I have not used mains cable for this purpose, but I do like a single strand of solid core wire. In the '80s I had stranded cable for many years - short lengths of Vampire Wire (lots of strands) and then in a different house, fairly inexpensive QED 79 cable. When Tara Labs started getting some notice (this was in Australia), a dealer friend recommended I try their Space and Time Phase II. I did, and I was knocked out with the improvement in coherency and imaging from this cable.

 

I use the reborn Space and Time in my bedroom system now, here in the USA.

 

The main system has DIY silver foils. I guess I have a problem now with multi-strand speaker cables.

 

(I have also made the full 27 pair Cat 5 cables and used them for a while, but replaced them with the foils. Much better sound in my system. These are just ribbons of 99.99% silver, wrapped in Teflon plumbers tape, and then placed back to back and wrapped again. No connectors - I just cut notches in the folded silver.)

[monteverdi]

I made all the cables I am presently using myself. Ag foil for mid/high and 4 braided 20 awg for low (using digital crossover/biamp). I found 20 -18 awg wire a good compromise between too large (skin effect and too stiff) and to small (resistance and interaction with dielectric). Copper quality plays a role and and much more the kind of dielectric (i.e. insulation). Anything with PVC as a primary insulations sounds bad.

[Speedskater]

In the US, the best (and lowest cost) speaker cable is an in-wall AC power cable called Romex®(NM) non-metalic. Choose 14AWG by 3 + Ground (total 4 core)(14AWG = 1.6mm dia.). Connect the Black & Red together for one 11AWG lead and the White & bare for the other. Another plus is that it has a natural twist. The drawbacks are that it's very stiff and very ugly!

[E8ArmyDiver]

I am a Certified Journeyman Electrician in several states & Certified Master Electrician in Wa.State.

The problem with using common solid core wire such as you mention is impurities in the copper & becomes highly evident(especially in the treble frequencies) the more resolving your system is.So while this type of wire is fine as a quick fix you are likely to notice a discernable difference when you finally go back to specialty cables.

[Speedskater]

"highly evident" ??????

"non existence" would be a better choice.

Where in your study of electricity did you learn that?

Do you think that the copper in power cable is different that the copper in a CAT6 cable?

[Brian A]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]1987[/ATTACH]

[Metralla]

Smile.

[souptin]

Well said.

 

Pretty please, let's try not to go there. Just for a change.

 

FWIW, the first time I did this experiment, I thought the speciality cables sounded a little smoother than the mains cable. Which strikes a chord with E8ArmyDiver's prediction. As has already been pointed out, this type of mains cable really is a pig to work with, and pig-ugly to boot, so I can't imagine too many people have kept it in place in their listening rooms to do any long term comparisons once the need for a quick fix is over. The cable I found has a white outer jacket instead of the usual grey, so it's a bit more acceptable. I dunno if the type of insulation or the copper purity is important but they do seem reasonable possibilities.

 

The point about CAT5 being another cheap solid core option is a good one, and the narrower gauge makes it a bit more pliable which helps. I'm not sure if the CAT5 diameter is so small that resistance could become important though: I did originally experiment with bi-wiring the DNM cable (one of the reasons why it is now too short, in fact), and again managed to convince myself that this was a further improvement. As has already been discussed elsewhere here on CA, bi-wiring (as opposed to bi-amping) doesn't do much to the circuit except lower the resistance.

 

But thanks for the nice replies, everyone - it really does help to clarify my thinking.

[4est]

Have you considered that possibly the "specialty" cable was crap? I don't know, but I often see people comparing cheaper cabling unfavorably, but I have noticed considerable differences in more upscale products much more than baseline ones.

[souptin]

In general, yes that's a fair point, but not so much in this particular case given that I used it quite happily for many years and it allowed me to hear differences in source components further back in the chain. Figure if it was all rock bottom substandard quality then everything would sound the same.

 

When you say differences in upscale products, do you mean, for example a difference in character between "high price cable A" and "high price cable B" or between the entry level price cables and the expensive ones? Obviously allowing for the fact that price is not a guarantee of quality.

[4est]

In general, yes that's a fair point, but not so much in this particular case given that I used it quite happily for many years and it allowed me to hear differences in source components further back in the chain. Figure if it was all rock bottom substandard quality then everything would sound the same.

 

Since when is it a prerequisite to have expensive cable in order to hear differences in source components? There is a big difference in beyond the norm vs obscuring the details.. I also did not say rock bottom quality, but crap but they are not mutually exclusive.

 

I was making comparisons in noting a difference in between a basic cable and an upscale one. Personally I think that most cables in the $100-$200 range are a waste of money. The first hundred goes into making them by hand and the next towards dealer markup, and low volume sales & inventory. Basically at that level you are giving your money away The actual product(material) is little different than the el cheapo variants, but just using a different distribution chain. I said most, not all btw.

[Metralla]

Personally I think that most cables in the $100-$200 range are a waste of money. The first hundred goes into making them by hand and the next towards dealer markup, and low volume sales & inventory. Basically at that level you are giving your money away The actual product(material) is little different than the el cheapo variants, but just using a different distribution chain. I said most, not all btw.

A reasonable observation.

[souptin]

Since when is it a prerequisite to have expensive cable in order to hear differences in source components? There is a big difference in beyond the norm vs obscuring the details.

 

On that point, because in theory, according to some people, when it comes to audio reproduction the best components do not have any character of their own, instead they are more true to the source. How many times have you heard a reviewer describing a high end component as 'not editorialising' or being 'more transparent' or even 'ruthlessly revealing'. Last one being a bit of a personal pet hate, it suggests to me that the reviewer might be trying to say the component sounds rubbish in a way that won't offend their advertisers.

 

By contrast, if we were discussing musical instruments, I would argue that in my experience the more upscale you go the more individual character the instruments have. They don't sound bad, quite the reverse, but they do sound different. Even as a very average schoolboy violinist I could tell that the instruments my teachers sometimes let me play had expressiveness and personality way beyond my plywood clone. Of course there's an interaction between the musician and instrument to complicate things, but the cheaper instruments are more bland, more alike. I dunno how well this translates to hifi though.

 

Could well be you're correct and spending 100 - 200 on speaker cables won't get me much more than a nicely packaged hand-made version of my mains cable.

[4est]

On that point....version of my mains cable.

 

I wouldn't confuse MAKING music with reproducing it. Two different animals, although you do have some points. I wouldn't count out less expensive cables either. It is just that there may be little there that is different. My speaker cable are wound in a way to be less inductive, purchased specifically because my speakers are capacitive and I didn't want to lose any more highs than I had to. Point being, that cables can also be application dependent.

[souptin]

I wouldn't confuse MAKING music with reproducing it.

 

Heh, yes - I think you've got me bang to rights on that one. I do confuse the two. In my defence I've played in bands and done DJ-ing and some recording engineering. Strictly as a hobby, you'd have to be seriously unlucky to have heard any of my work! But yes, once you throw some amplifiers in, and some samples, the lines can get blurred.

 

Just from personal experience, from reproducing music - the components which I think are my 'best': I can hear more of what is going on in the mix, but they also have definite preferences on what they like to play. Much as I hate to ascribe human qualities to bits of metal and silicon, goes against my objectivist religion.

 

If I understand you correctly, you've chosen your speaker cable with a view to how it's qualities will best complement your system, (quite rightly, what else makes sense?)

 

Probably wandered way off topic here.

[4est]

Heh, yes - I think you've got me bang to rights on that one. I do confuse the two. In my defence I've played in bands and done DJ-ing and some recording engineering. Strictly as a hobby, you'd have to be seriously unlucky to have heard any of my work! But yes, once you throw some amplifiers in, and some samples, the lines can get blurred.

 

Just from personal experience, from reproducing music - the components which I think are my 'best': I can hear more of what is going on in the mix, but they also have definite preferences on what they like to play. Much as I hate to ascribe human qualities to bits of metal and silicon, goes against my objectivist religion.

 

If I understand you correctly, you've chosen your speaker cable with a view to how it's qualities will best complement your system, (quite rightly, what else makes sense?)

 

Probably wandered way off topic here.

 

Ha, it is your thread, take it wherever you want it to go!

 

I hope that my responses did not seem rude thus far, as it was not my intent. I do agree with the personification you mentioned as it pertains to music that plays up the strengths of the system. It it just is the way it works. I have said before around here that there is no such thing as neutral or without colorations. As to my cable choice, yes it was chosen to compliment my speaker type, but that would not be their only use, they are nice cables in general. Even then, if I did not care for their overall gestalt (tonality, color or what have you), I'd swap them out straight away- physics be damned.

 

Along the lines of your cables, look up using extension (mains) cords as well. I think they may call it "white lightning" or something. Another cost effective alternative is THHN mains wires braided or twisted with a hand drill. There is often a lot of plastic and space in mains "Romex" type wires. It increases the capacitance and the more dielectric (plastic) the more dielectric absorption there will be.

[souptin]

I hope that my responses did not seem rude thus far

 

Not at all. It would be kind of dumb to ask for opinions and then accuse anyone who's opinion challenged mine of being rude. Your price point for cables certainly does challenge my comfort zone, my most expensive cables aren't even half that... wheras I'd happily go higher for other components without feeling the urge to demand 50-shades-of-up-your-ass-double-blind-peer-reviewed-signed-in-blood-scientific-approval.

 

I'd sure like to think that there are some manufacturers out there who can produce something a little out of the ordinary and keep it under $200. Gives me an idea for another topic.