HQPlayer's Network Audio Adapter

[shadowlight]

Personally I would look for Lenovo (M73, M83, M93 Tiny), HP Elitedesk G1 (400, 600, 800 USDT/Mini) or Dell (7xxx, 9xxx USFF) as NAA over Mac Mini. I have seen those go anywhere from 350 to 450 for 4th gen i5 processor on ebay and also sometimes on Lenovo's outlet site. The primary reason is that you are going to blow away the MacOSX on the system and install Debian or some other Linux variable to install NAA (unless Miska comes out with Mac OSX versio of NAA).

 

I picked up a Lenovo M73 Tiny with 4th gen i3 processor for around 225 (I got lucky with buy it now option) and it is dead quite.

[Superdad]

Would I need a keyboard and screen to install Debian etc or will i see the NAA through my MACbook pro to do the install?

 

 

Which is the oldest/cheapest Mac mini that would do ? is a G4 OK or should it be Intel, is 512 Mo of RAM enough?

 

Yes, you will need a screen and keyboard (and some Linux installs do not recognize the Apple Aluminum keyboard).

 

Intel is a must. And I never had any luck with the image Miska gave me (at the beginning of 2014) on my 2010 Core 2 Duo mini. Only when I upgraded to i5/i7 minis (2011/12/14) was I able to get NAA working on a Mac.

 

I wish it was easier. After many hours of fussing, I can understand why Miska is reluctant to distribute the NAA image for Intel/AMD. Computer and software support is no fun for anyone!

 

Maybe you should try the SOtM sMS-100--with a nice LPS--as NAA.

[YashN]

Thanks a lot, Superdad, it seems this was the only piece missing.

 

On the other hand, my iMac is already my router currently, but it is sharing the Ethernet through Wi-Fi, so what I did before was to remove the modem connection, and then connect an Ethernet cable to the Raspi.

 

Which reminds me that I needed a new Network location to be able to hack my Linksys router. Looks like I would need to do that here as well.

 

You will have to go through an Ethernet switch and/or router. HQP desktop won't find the NAA on the network unless there is a DNServer running. (I asked Miska about this again in post #192 above; Hopefully he is planning to allow manual IP address entry--on player side--to tell it what address to look at for an NAA.)

[Superdad]

On the other hand, my iMac is already my router currently, but it is sharing the Ethernet through Wi-Fi, so what I did before was to remove the modem connection, and then connect an Ethernet cable to the Raspi.

 

I tried a bunch to make HQP/NAA work with my desktop Mac as router (via both Network Sharing and OS X's built-in DHCP service "bootp" ; Running Mac OS X's built-in DHCP server - Jacques Fortier). Never got that to work. In fact, due to the slowness of the DHCP in my ADSL modem, I have to direct connect to it, as the Linux/NAA boot image I use is not patient enough to wait for a lease--from the modem/router--through my Cisco switch.

 

But please do let us know if you find a means to make a direct connection work.

 

Thanks,

--Alex C.

[Le Concombre Masqué]

thank you ; I'm happy I did not jump on a G4 or even a 2007 mini...

SOtM sMS-100 is way out of the budget I was thinking of ; maybe because I ignore how much a good NAA brings... Hope it's been worth the fuss ! It also seems overkill

 

would you say that, since you said the Cubox was unlistenable compared to the mini, that I'm better off staying away from NAA until I can consider putting as much money in a NAA than in my DAC ?

Yes, you will need a screen and keyboard (and some Linux installs do not recognize the Apple Aluminum keyboard).

 

Intel is a must. And I never had any luck with the image Miska gave me (at the beginning of 2014) on my 2010 Core 2 Duo mini. Only when I upgraded to i5/i7 minis (2011/12/14) was I able to get NAA working on a Mac.

 

I wish it was easier. After many hours of fussing, I can understand why Miska is reluctant to distribute the NAA image for Intel/AMD. Computer and software support is no fun for anyone!

 

Maybe you should try the SOtM sMS-100--with a nice LPS--as NAA.

[Le Concombre Masqué]

thank you ; what would make them preferable to a Cubox ?

 

Personally I would look for Lenovo (M73, M83, M93 Tiny), HP Elitedesk G1 (400, 600, 800 USDT/Mini) or Dell (7xxx, 9xxx USFF) as NAA over Mac Mini. I have seen those go anywhere from 350 to 450 for 4th gen i5 processor on ebay and also sometimes on Lenovo's outlet site. The primary reason is that you are going to blow away the MacOSX on the system and install Debian or some other Linux variable to install NAA (unless Miska comes out with Mac OSX versio of NAA).

 

I picked up a Lenovo M73 Tiny with 4th gen i3 processor for around 225 (I got lucky with buy it now option) and it is dead quite.

[Superdad]

would you say that, since you said the Cubox was unlistenable compared to the mini, that I'm better off staying away from NAA until I can consider putting as much money in a NAA than in my DAC ?

[/color]

 

I have NO idea. The only comparison test I did was between my 2012 i7 16GB Mac mini and the CuBox-i4Pro (both powered by JS-2 LPS; both booted with text-only Linux/NAA image created and optimized by Miska).

 

I think Miska feels that there should not be such a large difference as the one I hear. But maybe the quality of the CuBox-i USB is not so good, or that the large cache of the Mac's i7 is some advantage--I really don't know. And I have never listened to a SOtM sMS-100, but I hear that many people enjoy it as an NAA and s/w support for that is excellent (can also be used with LMS, DLNA, and several other server softwares).

 

And just to be honest about it, I am back to using HQ Player direct to DAC (via headless control of my linear fan controlled, LPS-fed, slimmed Mavericks SD boot Mac mini). The SQ between that and same machine as NAA (with player run from my not-optimized desktop i7 mini--still running Mountain Lion) is about equal, with slight favor to the non-NAA set up. But that may be because I have to run the NAA to my DSL modem--as opposed to Mac-to-Mac Ethernet direct with just HQP set-up. I will try NAA again if/when Miska allows users to directly specify--to HQP desktop player--the IP address of the NAA.

[shadowlight]

thank you ; what would make them preferable to a Cubox ?

 

I prefer to have a systems that can be reused if possible (my old desktop systems are now acting as file servers :-) ), plus I have never used Cubox and the last time I had looked at the price it was around 125 or so with very limited options. If you decide to move away from NAA I am not sure what else you can use the Cubox for. The other option in the same price range as Cubox is ECS LIVA system but can be reused with Win8.1 system if Linux does not work out.

[shadowlight]

I got the NAA installed on the xubuntu 14.04 lts and working with HQPlayer running on Windows 8.1 system in about 10 minutes.

 

My setup is HQPlayer (Lenovo TS140 Server with Xeon processor) --> Gigabit Ethernet --> NAA (Lenovo M73 with xubuntu) --> DAC (with Amanero USB). As soon as I plugged in the DAC, I was able to see the option under HQPlayer.

 

I just need to figure out how to convert everything to DSD and send it to NAA. Any one have any link on how to set that up on HQPlayer.

 

Edit: forgot to mention that I am using RDP client on iPad to logon to the windows box to control HQPlayer.

[jabbr]

I have NO idea. The only comparison test I did was between my 2012 i7 16GB Mac mini and the CuBox-i4Pro (both powered by JS-2 LPS; both booted with text-only Linux/NAA image created and optimized by Miska).

 

I think Miska feels that there should not be such a large difference as the one I hear. But maybe the quality of the CuBox-i USB is not so good, or that the large cache of the Mac's i7 is some advantage--I really don't know. And I have never listened to a SOtM sMS-100, but I hear that many people enjoy it as an NAA and s/w support for that is excellent (can also be used with LMS, DLNA, and several other server softwares).

 

Hard to know here ... don't really want to spend $1400 for a 16gb i7 mac mini on an experiment ... or to use it as a FIFO in an Ethernet -> USB adapter.

 

If this approach were to work, I would also consider something like RaspberryPi with an I2S output.

 

The fact that you find the sound so much different really calls into question the whole basis of these ideas about power supply and digital switching noise. I'm inclined to test the Cubox vs. my Macbook Pro given that its only 10% the cost of the mini. I guess I could also look at some of my older Mini's ... hmmm think I might have an older one whose hard drive is on the fritz anyways

[Superdad]

... don't really want to spend $1400 for a 16gb i7 mac mini on an experiment ...

 

Gee, I bought mine as a refurb with warranty from the Apple Store this past July for $679 (then paid $125 for the 16GB of RAM, and of course went the LPS and fan controller route).

 

But yes, my customized Mac mini is a LOT more expensive than a CuBox-i. And based on direct experience of the SQ of MacBook Pros and Airs (booted with the same Mavericks SD card as I use for my mini; tried both on battery and from the wall), I would not expect it be much better than the CuBox.

[Le Concombre Masqué]

Better with no money spent and no hours of cold sweat ?!!

 

Guess I will shy away from NAA then.

 

I run HQP on a lightly optimized Yosemite (everything unchecked in System Preferences for Mission control, software update, Power savings, Spotlight ; no firewall, no Time machine ; no Notification ; dropped only a few lines in Terminal to turn off hibernate and Sleep image) and I preferred it over trimmed Mavericks on SD card...

 

 

I have NO idea. The only comparison test I did was between my 2012 i7 16GB Mac mini and the CuBox-i4Pro (both powered by JS-2 LPS; both booted with text-only Linux/NAA image created and optimized by Miska).

 

I think Miska feels that there should not be such a large difference as the one I hear. But maybe the quality of the CuBox-i USB is not so good, or that the large cache of the Mac's i7 is some advantage--I really don't know. And I have never listened to a SOtM sMS-100, but I hear that many people enjoy it as an NAA and s/w support for that is excellent (can also be used with LMS, DLNA, and several other server softwares).

 

And just to be honest about it, I am back to using HQ Player direct to DAC (via headless control of my linear fan controlled, LPS-fed, slimmed Mavericks SD boot Mac mini). The SQ between that and same machine as NAA (with player run from my not-optimized desktop i7 mini--still running Mountain Lion) is about equal, with slight favor to the non-NAA set up. But that may be because I have to run the NAA to my DSL modem--as opposed to Mac-to-Mac Ethernet direct with just HQP set-up. I will try NAA again if/when Miska allows users to directly specify--to HQP desktop player--the IP address of the NAA.

[Le Concombre Masqué]

since the manual says

• ‘sMS-100’ is a network player which supports SqueezeLite, AirPlay, DLNA, MPD, and HQPlayer NAAfunction.
   
  I guess that life is easy indeed, provided you're happy to spend more on the NAA than for a TEAC UD 501 DAC...
   
  Could someone, please, describe the benefits of SMS 100 vs direct to DAC when HQP is on Yosemite ? (I run HQP on a lightly optimized Yosemite and I preferred it over trimmed Mavericks on SD card)
   
  

[Le Concombre Masqué]

Quite frankly, I'm almost annoyed by the lack of marketing here :

Miska should invite to trial hqp as desktop for as is it will prove it beats all the competition and that there's no need for pcm capabilities on DAC

Then he should clearly state that there's a plug & play solution to go even further and as HQP was first designed.

And if he endorses SMS 100, which get but rave reviews, why wouldn't he sell it bundled ?

I would go for a SMS 100 at regular price including a HQP licence ; pretty sure he would make as much or more money per set and since it would be so much simpler and sexy, even much more.

 

Anybody else here to back a subscription or whatever would help so we can order HQP/SMS 100 bundles ?

[MikeJazz]

since the manual says

• ‘sMS-100’ is a network player which supports SqueezeLite, AirPlay, DLNA, MPD, and HQPlayer NAAfunction.
   
  I guess that life is easy indeed, provided you're happy to spend more on the NAA than for a TEAC UD 501 DAC...
   
  Could someone, please, describe the benefits of SMS 100 vs direct to DAC when HQP is on Yosemite ? (I run HQP on a lightly optimized Yosemite and I preferred it over trimmed Mavericks on SD card)
   
  

 

From the HQPlayer site, quote

"Network Audio Adapter

Network audio is especially useful to give freedom from cables when player is run on a tablet or other wireless device."

 

So it's seems, at first sight, more of a convenience for the ones who prefer to move away from the hi-fi when controlling the app.

But then we have the following information:

"Processing is performed by the player application and the processed data is then asynchronously streamed over network to a very lightweight network audio adapter interfacing to the DAC. Asynchronous FIFO provides maximum isolation between processing and audio reproduction."

 

So, ot seems that two factors could play a role:

- isolation between processing and reproduction (any high processing will produce some noise)

- and being the player "light" on processing needs, then it should also be very quiet.

[Le Concombre Masqué]

Thank you, you're right. I meant to ask for actual listening feedbacks

 

From the HQPlayer site, quote

"Network Audio Adapter

Network audio is especially useful to give freedom from cables when player is run on a tablet or other wireless device."

 

So it's seems, at first sight, more of a convenience for the ones who prefer to move away from the hi-fi when controlling the app.

But then we have the following information:

"Processing is performed by the player application and the processed data is then asynchronously streamed over network to a very lightweight network audio adapter interfacing to the DAC. Asynchronous FIFO provides maximum isolation between processing and audio reproduction."

 

So, ot seems that two factors could play a role:

- isolation between processing and reproduction (any high processing will produce some noise)

- and being the player "light" on processing needs, then it should also be very quiet.

[sondale]

I have repeated Superdads experiment with NAA, in my case I started out with NAA loaded on a Cubietruck which sounded OK. I then setup a partition on a late 2009 Mac Mini, added a Debian release and NAA, the sound quality did get a lot better with a greater sense of ease when listening.

 

Since I wanted to use the mac for normal duties I setup another very simple pc (Jetway JNF9T-2930, 4gb memory, 30gb msata) and initially loaded Ubuntu Studio (now changed to Server) and NAA. The sound is the same as the Mac mini - so this will now stay as it is; I run both pcs (control & NAA) headless, no screen, keyboard, mouse. All controlled from an ipad using NoMachine.

 

I did search the web for details of the usb on the Cubietruck and all I could find was one post claiming there was a limit on the bit rate due to the drivers, whether this is true and whether it has an effect I do not know, but I will not be changing back to the Cubietruck.

 

So if you have a powerful pc sitting around not doing much or you can partition one then I think it is worth trying.

[Le Concombre Masqué]

Your post is very interesting and opens possibilities. I have a windows laptop cemetery but none is powerful per today's standards !

I have repeated Superdads experiment with NAA, in my case I started out with NAA loaded on a Cubietruck which sounded OK. I then setup a partition on a late 2009 Mac Mini, added a Debian release and NAA, the sound quality did get a lot better with a greater sense of ease when listening.

 

Since I wanted to use the mac for normal duties I setup another very simple pc (Jetway JNF9T-2930, 4gb memory, 30gb msata) and initially loaded Ubuntu Studio (now changed to Server) and NAA. The sound is the same as the Mac mini - so this will now stay as it is; I run both pcs (control & NAA) headless, no screen, keyboard, mouse. All controlled from an ipad using NoMachine.

 

I did search the web for details of the usb on the Cubietruck and all I could find was one post claiming there was a limit on the bit rate due to the drivers, whether this is true and whether it has an effect I do not know, but I will not be changing back to the Cubietruck.

 

So if you have a powerful pc sitting around not doing much or you can partition one then I think it is worth trying.

[realmassy]

My experience seems different: I've installed the NAA software on a Mac mini 2010 running Debian and compared against a SOTM sms100. The sotm is powered by a linear psu, the mini uses a ssd and I've also removed the fan, leaving it without the bottom cover. No dedicated psu.

To my ears, the sotm sounds effortless, with the mini being more nervous, with better instrument separation and harsh top end. Strings sound very strident.

After an hour listening to some string quartets had to switch back to the sotm.

[YashN]

No luck either getting it to work between my Core 2 Duo iMac on Mavericks and the Raspi as NAA.

 

Maybe an issue in configuring the DHCP/DNS? Haven't tried doing it manually but thanks for the info.

And I never had any luck with the image Miska gave me (at the beginning of 2014) on my 2010 Core 2 Duo mini. Only when I upgraded to i5/i7 minis (2011/12/14) was I able to get NAA working on a Mac.

[Superdad]

My experience seems different: I've installed the NAA software on a Mac mini 2010 running Debian and compared against a SOTM sms100. The sotm is powered by a linear psu, the mini uses a ssd and I've also removed the fan, leaving it without the bottom cover. No dedicated psu.

To my ears, the sotm sounds effortless, with the mini being more nervous, with better instrument separation and harsh top end. Strings sound very strident.

After an hour listening to some string quartets had to switch back to the sotm.

 

Massimiliano: Very glad to hear about your positive results with the SOtM sMS-100. Not a big surprise as I know they put fine effort into that device. And it is a nice, easy route for many.

 

Just to be clear though, your comparison was very different than mine--even on the Mac side. Both hardware and software. My NAA Mac is an i7 (versus your Core 2 Duo), has linear fan controller and excellent external LPS, and was booted from USB stick with a highly optimized/minimal text-only Linux/NAA image made by Miska. (For reference sake and so others can see what I actually used and wrote about the SQ back in September when I did my test, see this post: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f11-software/hqplayer-desktop-3-4-0-windows-linux-and-mac-os-x-released-21629/#post350822)

 

HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE!

 

--Alex C.

[jabbr]

Gee, I bought mine as a refurb with warranty from the Apple Store this past July for $679 (then paid $125 for the 16GB of RAM, and of course went the LPS and fan controller route).

 

But yes, my customized Mac mini is a LOT more expensive than a CuBox-i. And based on direct experience of the SQ of MacBook Pros and Airs (booted with the same Mavericks SD card as I use for my mini; tried both on battery and from the wall), I would not expect it be much better than the CuBox.

 

Fair enough -- unfortunately the latest (2014) mini's no longer allow memory upgrades :-/

 

Theories about what makes better SQ are all fine and good. Clearly digital noise is an issue. On the other hand theories can degenerate into a bunch of gobbledygook if they don't make useful predictions about future behavior.

 

So here's my issue: if the idea of minimizing interfaces thus reducing switching noise affecting the power plane is true, then wouldn't a low power fanless SOC (e.g. Cubox etc) be predictably better than a Mac Mini with its multiple interfaces and fan and power requirements?

 

What is the minimum "power" that is needed for NAA let's say using DSD512? Celeron? Atom? ARM v7? v8? Since we are running Linux would an Intel NUC be better (SQ) than an ARM platform?

[realmassy]

Massimiliano: Very glad to hear about your positive results with the SOtM sMS-100. Not a big surprise as I know they put fine effort into that device. And it is a nice, easy route for many.

 

Just to be clear though, your comparison was very different than mine--even on the Mac side. Both hardware and software. My NAA Mac is an i7 (versus your Core 2 Duo), has linear fan controller and excellent external LPS, and was booted from USB stick with a highly optimized/minimal text-only Linux/NAA image made by Miska. (For reference sake and so others can see what I actually used and wrote about the SQ back in September when I did my test, see this post: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f11-software/hqplayer-desktop-3-4-0-windows-linux-and-mac-os-x-released-21629/#post350822)

 

HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE!

 

--Alex C.

Yep, that is a pretty different configuration! I've got the feeling the LPS is the key here: every time I've replaced a switch psu with a linear one I've noticed a good improvement: pc, router, switch, naa etc etc. They don't have, I think, direct impact on the sound, on the way bits are transfered, but on the rest of the audio equipment connected to the same ring.

When I've got some spare time (and money!) i'll build a naa using an Atom board with DC input, which I'll power with the same PSU I'm using for the SOTM

[Le Concombre Masqué]

My interest for the SMS 100 has been pretty much cold showered when I read Computer Audiophile review of it suggesting a not so clean usb output, bettered by a usb to aes device and delivering inferior sound (to his system's without it) without its battery.

 

You disagree and get better SQ with the SMS than in a direct HQP to DAC configuration ?

 

My experience seems different: I've installed the NAA software on a Mac mini 2010 running Debian and compared against a SOTM sms100. The sotm is powered by a linear psu, the mini uses a ssd and I've also removed the fan, leaving it without the bottom cover. No dedicated psu.

To my ears, the sotm sounds effortless, with the mini being more nervous, with better instrument separation and harsh top end. Strings sound very strident.

After an hour listening to some string quartets had to switch back to the sotm.

[realmassy]

My interest for the SMS 100 has been pretty much cold showered when I read Computer Audiophile review of it suggesting a not so clean usb output, bettered by a usb to aes device and delivering inferior sound (to his system's without it) without its battery.

 

You disagree and get better SQ with the SMS than in a direct HQP to DAC configuration ?

 

You know what? I've never tried HQP without NAA. I used to use the SOTM as DLNA renderer, and only a few months ago I decided to try it as NAA. Initially I wasn't happy with the sound quality, I didin't find the right filter for my dac, the Metrum Hex.

To me the SOTM sounds very good, I preferred it to JRiver/Jplay for example, using a CAPS with linear PSU.

My DAC though, doesn't use the 5v from the PC/NAA, and I use a USB cable that does't carry the 5V at all. I remember Chris review saying the SOTM worked really well with the Ayre QB-9, another DAC that doesn't use the 5v from the host, which incidentally I own before getting the Hex. I'm very very happy with this configuration to be honest.