Breaking-in new, solid-state electronics

[sjoc2000]

Originally Posted by Julf

"I find it amusing how some people feel that adding a smiley at the end of a statement makes whatever was said in the statement somehow magically OK. Well, I will make sure I preserve any of your disclaiming smileys in the future."

 

Don't know how to do that quote thing. :0)

 

No, Julf it is not magical, nor does it matter if something is ok with you or not. For me, it is good manners, that is trying to express that I am engaged in a conversation, and trying to learn something, as opposed to being in a fight or some kind of contentious disagreement.

 

At my age,63, I have found that many people that say such things in email or in a forum are often like little mice when they are face to face with you, they only behave like tough or smart guys when there are no consequences for them.

 

Maybe you need to take some time off from CA, and learn some manners...

 

Jim

[Paul R]

Because of this thread, I made my new DAC-iT play music all night. I would not normally have done this. A prayer to the audio gods. Home for the weekend; will listen today.

 

It will be interesting to hear if it made a difference to you. My little DAC*IT changed rather persistently for near on 100-150 hours, then settled down and changed only a little bit for the next 200 hours or so, and that for the better.

 

Since that point, the sound from it is stable and reliable, and better than it was when new.

 

YMMV, etc.

 

-Paul

[4est]

I feel honoured that you show so much interest in my personalia. Has this forum suddenly become ageist? Yes, I am 51. And no, I don't hang around Christian Teen Forums - I just came across that quote, and thought it was rather funny, considering the source. The context of it was "satanic heavy rock music is just numbers, so we shouldn't get too upset about it".

 

I cannot decide what is more distasteful, a duffer on a Christian teen forum or satanic heavy rock. Both seem icky to me and I am a hedonist of sorts, and certainly no saint.

[sjoc2000]

4est; I'm waiting for something about below the tip of the iceberg. :0)

I've only been wrong only 4 1/2 times in my life, maybe I'll have to make it 5 1/2.

 

Paul; I noticed in your signature that your peachtree dacit is no longer there? Darn, I felt I was in good company when you were using it. Now as a just pass newbie around here I'm having a crisis of confidence. What you going to be using that's new?

 

BTW, I love the DACit, don't know that I could improve upon it with my present system.

 

Jim

[Paul R]

Hi Jim -

 

Dac*IT is still here and in daily use in main system. Not planning on replacing it anytime soon.

 

Been trying it with different USB-> S/PDIF convertors, so I haven't got the gear listed as it liable to change week to week.

 

The DAC*IT is amazing, and it is a permanent member of my audio zoo.

 

-Paul

[4est]

4est; I'm waiting for something about below the tip of the iceberg. :0)

I've only been wrong only 4 1/2 times in my life, maybe I'll have to make it 5 1/2.

 

Paul; I noticed in your signature that your peachtree dacit is no longer there? Darn, I felt I was in good company when you were using it. Now as a just pass newbie around here I'm having a crisis of confidence. What you going to be using that's new?

 

BTW, I love the DACit, don't know that I could improve upon it with my present system.

 

Jim

 

Make that 6 1/2 with the addition to your thinking that I may have desire or responsibility to do your research for you or prove something to you as those are only simple parasitic losses that are a part of any device.

 

Hmm, I am unsure if that is more than one, maybe is is 7 or 7.5 then. You decide.

[sjoc2000]

A question Paul, if you happen to know the answer.

 

I've been reading all kinds of specs on the Asus Xonar I'm using as a bridge. It's s/pdif output jitter is at 1.45ns (at 2 ns jitter you lose 1 bit, 16->15 bit). The Dacit is reclocking at <3ps. Is the Xonar bridge the limiting factor at 1.45 ns, therefore making the reclocking in the Dacit an exercise in futility?

 

Jim

[sjoc2000]

4est;

 

Thank you for your taking the time to respond. Was just kidding with you 4est, and thought you had something to add to the discussion. Don't quite understand how you could take it otherwise. I'll stick with my 4.5. You have a good weekend...

 

Jim

[4est]

Sorry, but I do not know how to begin, and certainly do not want to get into a debate about that which I will say. It would seem that some posters would blow holes in the theory that the sun rises in the east as Paul has mentioned in a recent post somewhere...

 

Forming

dielectric constants

dielectric stabilization

 

and a host of other things. One really needs to experience it to believe I imagine. Solder an NOS oil cap or teflon in line and watch it wreck things for awhile as it settles. Seriously, I am chagrinned as to why there are some experienced audiophiles who have not. Dare I say "expectation bias"- no, scratch that.

[REShaman]

Please excuse my typo J1 was meant as JC1 (as in Parasound). I am sure John Curl's name and 2 out of 3 was obvious. But I never met a typo I liked.

Richard

[sandyk]

To further illustrate the point about Electrolytic capacitor deterioration with age and heat, and hence gradual degraded amplifier performance that many may not be aware of,I have attached a post about an almost 30 year old Mosfet Amplifier that I built, and was recovered from a friend's garage and then tested by C.S.I.R.O. Engineer Suzy J.

You will also later on see a reference to improving performance with better thermal balancing of the 2nd stage differential pair.No, I did not have access to distortion measuring gear when it was built.

Alex

 

26th July 2007, 09:50 AM #38

suzyj

diyAudio Member

 

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Sydney There's good news and bad news...

 

I fired the ETI5000 up this morning before work on an 8 Ohm load, using a Tektronix SG505 oscillator to drive the input, and monitoring the output with an AA501A distortion analyser.

 

Quick first readings (I'll do more extensive tests at lunch time) indicate that the left channel does 0.0062% THD (50W, 1KHz). Not too shabby for a pretty old design. Sandy, did you have access to distortion mesauring gear when you built it?

 

The right channel, however, is a basket case. 0.35% THD (50W, 1KHz). The distortion doesn't drop as I vary the input level, either. It's so bad that it's actually visible on my cro (a 1GHz high zoot factor Lecroy).

 

No wonder it sounded interesting

 

Neither channel is oscillating though. I wonder what's causing the distortion? I presume capacitors have dried out. It is, after all, some thirty years old.

 

ETI 477 article - Page 4 - diyAudio

[Paul R]

Hi Jim - I do not really know much about your card, but 1.4+ nanoseconds of jitter seems awfully high compared to picosecond jitter in the DAC.

 

I do know the Dac*IT sounds better if you feed it better signals, so I am with you that it is a point to be suspicious of.

 

At some point, increasing input jitter will,in a sense, overwhelm the reclocking capability of any DAC. Where exactly that point is with the DAC*IT I am unsure.

 

The good news is that even very inexpensive USB to S/PDIF converters should be able to do much better than 1.4ns. Much better indeed, I think.

 

Paul

[sjoc2000]

Thanks Paul, don't want to take up any space on this thread with an off subject topic. You have a good what's left of the weekend.

 

Jim

[chg]

I never claimed I have golden ears.

 

Yet, you make definitive statements that cables don't matter!

 

I'm just messin' with ya'.

[4est]

No messing around, it is a good point. If someone does not experience subtleties readily, they might ought to say so when they claim to not hear something. There are some here who say such things and they are not ridiculed or ignored. Quite the contrary actually...

[sjoc2000]

Cables can make a very big difference, and that is demonstrable.

 

But subtleties; one person says they experience one, but really don't. Another say's they don't but actually do. How can we know what they experience, or that what they experience is real?

 

And that is what objective proof is all about. We can see proof and then all hopefully agree upon facts. It isn't that difficult to show objectively the idea that some audio systems change in time for the better, yet in all this thread there are only claims, but no evidence. "Where's the beef" :0)

 

No need to ridicule or ignore others, I have found that treating others as I would like to be treated a better way...

 

Jim

[REShaman]

I practice this: I never argue with perception.

I practice this too: When words and actions don't match I look to the action.

 

As Jim articulates, it has been my experience that cables make a difference in delivering sound, despite a heap of opinions which reach the opposite perception. I know there are many nuances to cables construction, materials, technology. And cables have a break-in period in my experience, which I have discerned. And, and, some individuals scoff (they consider it Voodoo) when I share my experience about active shielding which I (and others easily) can discern when engaged or not. Pull the plug on the active shielding and it's stunning in the change. I can hear with more difficulty the other nuances available in addition to the shielding.

 

When Jim asks where's the Beef (if I am understanding him correctly), my initial response was between my ears and the rest of my body. For I not only hear changes (over time), I feel them as well. And ultimately, for me, alone or among "n" that's the beef! Meaning the proof is in the pudding (butterscotch today).

 

In stating this I am not making an argument (in sense of taking a side vs an opposing side). I am advocating for my experience, with no expectation or stake in having others agree with me. Foremost for me is what I perceive. While that may or may not be measured scientifically, honestly, I am not concerned about that. I would about other matters when progress or decline has a outcome that is either life threatening or requires taking action in one direction or another for a loved one or a client. You know safety, security vs SQ. But when I am listening to music, my value for SQ is very high and about safety not as high (or at all, unless I actually buy that new component I want and my wife, well...she's Italian, smart beautiful and she outranks me most of the time).

 

Ultimately, if I perceive a change and it is for the better and I attribute the change to hours of break-in because it was new and hundreds of playing hours have elapsed, that is reason enough for me to not only accept the improvement but enjoy it as well. Others who can analyze objectively what the cause and effect is actually happening are welcome. Makes it even more fascinating. You know, looking at a rainbow that disappears after a while. Why is the sky blue?

 

Not sure what the rub is about this break-in stuff. I do not mean it is a waste of time to discuss it amongst ourselves. I refer to the opposition to one perception over the other and what the stake is in the opposition. Perhaps we are engaging in an exchange of what we value and what we believe. And a belief the value includes making others believe what we believe with concrete, scientific, popular evidence or absent such evidence and beliefs and values are worthless, not credible, whatever.

 

A year ago, I bought a bunch of equipment because I had embraced 2ch listening long ago (M.ch is wonderful too);and now I wanted to do move into Computer Audio as the prime synergy for the listening conveyance of my library of 4000+which I could not manage. I could not. The idea of it was enthralling.

 

To make a long story (it's already long), I did my due diligence, I rented the cables, I made the decisions. I borrowed the money. Mostly everything arrived within days of each order. Thank you Apple for a month's delay for the Thunderbolt cable.

 

Finally, glued everything together, put the decals on...My wife! Ladies and gentlemen, Violá! That was followed by glazed gazes of confusion and polite remarks you know...Hey, that was different. Sounded er'...good. Quickly, I recovered and explained of course this will all sound different. Did I mention break-in. My wife supported me with all of that. And I needed to constantly remind myself that break-in meant change for the better. Hundreds of hours of break-in for the better, which for some does not exist de facto.

 

Today a year later, de facto, my system sounds dramatically/perceptually different into the positive realm. Reinforced by feedback from Other. Most importantly, my wife, and I. Break-in might include break-out, because whatever was stuffed inside that system is now in the room. Sincerity is measured by time.

 

Enjoying the music,

Richard

[sjoc2000]

Hi Richard;

 

Great post, and congratulations upon having such a good wife. :0)

 

Well, many say, "perception is reality". I'm not going to argue with that, especially when trading in the stock market. What an enjoyable hobby this is, and what a neat forum to learn and express our experiences on. As I've been told by others when I started here, have to paraphrase "enjoy your music, have fun".

 

That's the bottom line...

 

Jim

[REShaman]

Hi Richard;

 

Great post, and congratulations upon having such a good wife. :0)

 

Well, many say, "perception is reality". I'm not going to argue with that, especially when trading in the stock market. What an enjoyable hobby this is, and what a neat forum to learn and express our experiences on. As I've been told by others when I started here, have to paraphrase "enjoy your music, have fun".

 

That's the bottom line...

 

Jim

 

Amen, Jim. A prayer worth saying everyday.

 

I am so grateful for my wife and my life with her and the music we enjoy together with its unique influence of medicines for healing, invigorating and entrancing and adds to a connection which is already deep and abiding and has been for (going on) thirty-five years. I have five years on you in age and appreciate how important keeping paths open, connections deep and actions respectful of others as you previously voiced. Music provides a channel for connection. And when all is said and done, I want to enjoy the music, and find a way to do so. Thank you for your words and for representing yourself in a wise and respectful way. It adds to the power of the forum to engage, exchange, excel, empathize, validate, educate and quit while you're ahead.

Best,

Richard

[xyz]

chj,

 

"At first, I didn't believe the burn-in theory, but after going through a few new source components, I believe it.

 

I know how to test the theory. Someone here just purchase two new, lets say Wadia, players and break-in one of them (but don't listen at all) then pull the other out and A/B them. Any volunteers?

 

I wonder if straight DAC's are less prone to break-in due to their lack of a transport vs. CD/DVD player?"

 

I just started reading through this thread because I was interrested in some comments on expectation bias but stopped when I got to your post. I jumped from there to here without reading anything in between so if my comments look out of place to what is currently being discussed, that's why.

 

You are correct in hearing break in. I've stated before that once you hear break in the 1st time, it becomes much easier to hear from then on. As always, though, the more detailed and resolving your equipment is, the more you will notice it. Funny you bring up Wadia. I did just that with 2 861's and 2 27ix's. Under blind testing, I was able to tell 100% with both models.

 

One important factor to consider, though, is that it is easy to sometimes mistake break in with warm up. Some components need a lot of warm up, even after they are broken in to sound their best. My Ayre amps, for example, have circuitry that keep certain parts of the amp powered even after you turn them off. (They still have to be plugged in.) I've had other components that if you didn't leave them on for at least a day or two, they didn't sound good as all.

[chg]

You are correct in hearing break in. I've stated before that once you hear break in the 1st time, it becomes much easier to hear from then on. As always, though, the more detailed and resolving your equipment is, the more you will notice it. Funny you bring up Wadia. I did just that with 2 861's and 2 27ix's. Under blind testing, I was able to tell 100% with both models.

 

As I'm sure you know, I was joking about the two Wadia comparison, because frankly, who is going to have access to two pricey Wadia at the same time? But here we are, someone actually did. That's excellent. I'm sure many will value your posting your conclusions.

One important factor to consider, though, is that it is easy to sometimes mistake break in with warm up. Some components need a lot of warm up, even after they are broken in to sound their best. My Ayre amps, for example, have circuitry that keep certain parts of the amp powered even after you turn them off. (They still have to be plugged in.) I've had other components that if you didn't leave them on for at least a day or two, they didn't sound good as all.

 

Very good point that I definitely did not consider and I'm sure many others have not either. I will be sure to remember that from now on. At least, I hope I remember when the time comes to burn in anything new again.

[xyz]

chg

 

I didn't think you were joking. Switching between 2 components, one broken in and one not broken in, is the best way I know of to listen for break in. If you want to experiment, you should be able to get similiar results whith something much cheaper like 2 pairs of cables.

 

To answer your question about who would have all these Wadia products availiable to test, I was a dealer. I had them both in stock.

[chg]

xyz- Not joking about the break-in, just joking that someone should go out and get two 10-20K+ Wadia players just to perform the test.

[wgscott]

Wouldn't it be easiest to test for the reality of break-in by hooking up just one channel? Break in the right channel for two weeks, and then play something mono through both channels, and subtract one output from the other and see what remains...

[chg]

That's crazy talk.

 

What! You wgscott say you don't believe in break-in? What's the world coming to?

 

Better not start a break-in debate now that the cable debate has seemed to cool down.