My new system is "underwhelming"...how do I improve sound?

[tpoole638]

I posted a couple months ago about getting advice concerning purhcasing a complete component 2-channel home audio system for listening to music. I received some great advice and opinions.

 

I purchased all of the components and have listened to my new system for almost 2 months now. I have to say that I am disappointed in the overall sound. I do not feel it is worth the money I have spent. I am hoping someone here can help me tweak it or point me in the right direction in making it a quality system.

 

Here is my system:

 

AIFF files/Spotify/iTunes Match --- Ipad2 --- Apple TV2 --- optical cable --- Peachtree DAC*it --- NAD C326 BEE Amplifier --- (2) PSB Image T6 floorstanding speakers.

 

PSB Image T6 Speakers:

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_760IMGT6B/PSB-Image-T6-Black-Ash.html?tp=185#overview-tab

 

Peachtree DAC*it:

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_731DACIT/Peachtree-DAC-B-B-iT.html

 

NAD C326 Bee Amplifier:

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_745C326BEE/NAD-C-326BEE.html?tp=34948

 

 

This system has sounded really good at times, with certain songs; however, overall, I have been disappointed with the overall sound quality. For instance, the highs sound harsh at times, the mids/highs sound muddy, not dynamic, thin at times, and 2-dimensional. This only seems to mildly improve when listening to CD-quality music files, but in some instances, I can't really tell much of a difference even then.

 

To make matters worse, I took a CD that I have always thought sounds really great in terms of quality of the recording (just a great-sounding, musical production) and played it in my Sony PS3 connected to my Peachtree via an optical cable. I compared that to my old Bose Sound dock portable ipod dock. I simply put my iphone on the dock of the Bose...I was playing the same album as the CD; however, I was playing the iTunes Match version (256k) which is iTunes Store compressed stuff.

 

My new stereo system sounded only marginally better. Seriously. What really made me sad was that I actually kinda preferred listening to the Bose, because it was easier on the ears....it was more pleasant because the harshness was not there, nor was the volume "too much" like it is when listening to my new system. I find that to get good sound I have to often turn up the volume on the amp to the point that it is just too loud to listen to at normal levels.

 

What is wrong??? Here are a few thoughts I have as to what might be the problems.

 

-The amp is not powerful enough to properly drive the speakers.

-No pre-amp in the chain.

-Speakers/amp/DAC combo is not very good together maybe.

 

I am really looking forward to you all helping me out with this. I really don't want to return all of the items I have purchased, but for something that has cost me more than $2k, it should sound alot better in my opinion. A system with an amp and a DAC playing CD quality audio files should DEFINITELY sound better than an iphone playing compressed music while hooked up to a portable Bose ipod player.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[AudioDoctor]

If you are using iTunes or a Software volume control, that could easily be the problem right there.

 

[tpoole638]

Sorry, I forgot to mention a few things. I bought Monster cables for the RCAs from the DAC to the amp. They are certainly not high-end, but they are decent I would imagine. I bought 16-guage speaker wire (Monster Brand) and Stinger gold-plated banana clips.

 

My speakers are capable of being setup for bi-amping / bi-wiring, but I do not have them setup that way.

 

 

 

[tpoole638]

 

@ AudioDoctor - I am indeed using iTunes on my iPad. I use the iPad to play AIFF files. I use the Apple TV to play my iTunes Match content.

 

When using the iPad, I have the volume to the maximum, and I have the EQ settings OFF.

 

 

 

[AudioDoctor]

you need a pre-amp. The reason it sounds even worse at low volume is because the software volume control is cutting off bits.

 

[SteveChicago]

I'm a rookie to this stuff. However, may I suggest that you spend no more money and, instead, research and then implement how best to place your speakers in your listening area and acoustically treat your listening room with the furnishings you now have.

 

I have found that speaker placement in my system is absolutely critical in maximizing sound quality (imaging, sound stage, etc.)

 

In my case (and this may differ from system to system and/or room to room) I get huge benefits from placing my speakers far apart from one another, generously toed-in, and away from all walls. When I bring them closer together in a more "traditional" configuration, I lose sound quality big time.

 

To find articles on the net regarding these topics, just Google a phrase like "room acoustics" and read up.

 

You might find that this improves your system tremendously.

 

Hope this helps!

 

Steve

 

[Paul R]

The fact that it sounds good sometimes makes me think the room may be causing you some problems. The fact that things sound so very different probably backs that up a bit too.

 

Have you looked at Jim Smith's book Get Better Sound?

 

That would probably be the place to start. It really sounds like you need to work on setting it up a little differently in the room.

 

Can you describe the room and how you have it setup in more detail please?

 

Paul

 

 

[debt_collector]

I think Paul has a point. Looking at Jim's Smith Get Better Sound book would help with speaker placement. I got extra 20% from my system by repositioning my speakers further away from the wall with a toe-in.

 

This may be a long-shot but have you checked that your speakers aren't out of phase?

 

And a final point, maybe not so helpful at this stage. It always helps to listen to the complete system before you buy. System matching is as important as getting good quality Hi-Fi components. It is a good idea to buy from a dealer who would let you audition the system at home

 

[tokapaho]

When looking at the specs for the PSB speakers, they are rated for 20 - 200 wpc, with a impedance of 6 ohm and a sensitivity of 91db. They are fairly easily driven, but your NAD amplifier is rated for a MAXIMUM output of 50/wpc in either 8 or 4 ohm. You would benefit from a juicer amplifier.

 

This might not be the solution to all your problems but it seems to me that your NAD is a little to underpowered for the PBS.

 

I would not recommend you to spend any more $ on cables and such until you resolved this.

 

Furthermore you would be amazed what buying power you'll have buying used equipment on Audiogon.

 

[shoegazer]

I just upgraded from the system I was able to afford in grad school to the system I can afford today, and I ended up getting the amp/speaker combo I have after listening to many different set-ups and having a "eureka!" moment as soon I heard at the dealer the gear I ended up getting. It's quite possible that what you are hearing out of your upgraded system is the way it's supposed to sound, which is at odds with the sound you are looking for.

 

Having said that, I also second what others above have said about speaker placement. That can easily make or break a system and I would strongly suggest you experiment with speaker set up and possibly other low-cost alternatives (e.g. room treatments) before dropping any more cash.

 

Look at it this way....when I sit on my couch and lean my head a foot forward, I am amazed how much the bass response varies over such a small space.

 

If you get to the point where you want to buy some other equipment, I recommend avoiding Crutchfield only because I think their prices are too high. Excluding the CAPS, every piece in my new system was either a demo, a closeout, or was slightly used (< 3 months). This saved me 25% - 30% on each piece and I got full warranties on the demo/closeouts.

 

Good luck in your quest,

-Seth

 

[shoegazer]

Also meant to say that perhaps the speakers you have are too big for your room since you said they sound better when they are louder and I see that they are floorstanders. I've noticed that my system needs to be pushed a bit before it starts to sound the way I like it. If it's too low, the sound is thin and hollow. Fortunately, the volume that sounds good to me does not sound bad to my upstairs neighbors.

 

[babybear]

First, I don't think you need a preamp because the nad unit that you provided a link to is an integrated amp meaning that it has a built in preamp already.

 

Second, the advice to work on speaker placement in your room is the best place to start. Your speakers have titanium tweeters and ceramic mids so I think proper placement to minimize hard sounding highs is a must.

 

Three, given that it sounds better at certain times than others you might need to consider some type of power conditioning, especially if is sounding better late at night.

 

Fourth, room treatments once you have optimized speaker placement and perhaps added a good power conditioner would certainly help.

 

Fifth, I suspect that the nad receiver is a little under powered for your speakers and especially noticeable as you turn the volume up. But before considering replacing it, try the first 4 items as they will benefit and system that you use in this room.

 

Arnie

 

 

[got tinnitus]

Firstly, look to your room. Is it bare with lots of reflective surfaces?

 

- Keep the Apple TV box well away from the amp and DAC.

 

- Are you using mains filters? If not, then good.

 

- Get the amp and DAC on it's own mains circuit, separate to any other gear using wall-warts, switch mode power supplies etc.

 

- Replace the speakers crossover stock links with plain copper speaker wire.

 

- Be careful with Monster style cables. These can have the effect of highlighting weaknesses in a system.

 

- What is the optical cable you're using?

 

- Leave the speaker grills on.

 

- Try the Densen Demagic file. This can 'dehash' your system.

 

 

[ecwl]

I think it is almost for certain that the problem is with speaker setup (phase/placement) and room acoustics. NAD would have so much more power than the Bose dock that there is no way how you get enough sound from the Bose and not from NAD+PSB. If you need to turn it up the NAD to get good sound, it is usually because your speakers are spaced too far apart and not toed in sufficiently so you are missing the centre fill. If you can't put the speakers closer to each other, you should try to toe in your speakers gradually until you get good centre image.

 

As for the harshness, that's harder to tell. It could be that you are driving your speakers too hard because of the lack of centre fill. All speakers sound harsh when the amplifier is over-driven. It could be because of resonance issues within the room. In which case, you would have to move your speakers around more than just toeing in or move your seat around. It could also be because of electrical noise issues affecting your Peachtree DAC but I think that's much lower on the list. Besides, if you hook up your PS3 by stereo RCA to your NAD, does it sound harsh still? If it does, it's almost definitely speaker setup and room acoustics. I doubt you made the wrong stereo purchase as I've heard every component in your system and I've heard your NAD with your PSB speakers in a fairly large room and they sound great.

 

[spdif-usb]

While I haven't compared the Peachtree DAC-iT, the Peachtree Nova sounded harsh to my ears. This was on a Sony TA-F570 ES amp in direct input mode and a pair of wallmounted Bose 301 Series II. In fact, all ES9018 based DACs sounded harsh to me except only one, which I ended up buying and have listed in my specs below. The frequency response of my current pair of speakers (also listed in my specs) goes up to as high as 40 kHz using ceramic reference tweeters and, at this same frequency, my current power amp (again, see my specs) has a frequency response curve that's still ruler flat, with very little harmonic distortion and extremely low crosstalk.

I am using the volume control of foobar2000 and my DAC is connected to my amp without anything in between both, apart from a decent RCA cable.

There is not a hint of harshness to be detected in my system. Even, if the volume is cranked deafeningly way up and above that which corresponds to my speakers' official power rating specs, and regardless of my music choices.

 

[tpoole638]

Thanks for all of the advice/comments so far...I really appreciate it!

 

First, let me clarify something - I think I may have misspoke when I said that at times it sounds pretty good and other times it does not. What I meant to say was that there are some songs that sound really good...more songs do not sound all that great. I have not heard any same song sound good one day, then sound bad the next. I meant that there are some songs I have played that sound pretty good. The most notable that I can think of is "No Quarter" by Led Zeppelin.

 

Honestly, I feel like I have had the opposite of the "break-in" effect happen to me. As I have played music on my system, it has not "opened-up", but seems to have progressively sounded worse as time has passed; it seems to sound more muddy than it did before. That could be my mind playing tricks on me though too, who knows. It seems that way though.

 

I will educate myself more on room acoustics and speaker placement. I have to shamefully admit that I was given advice to to that, but I never did. The reason I did not learn more about that is because I feel like I am very limited in how I could setup my system in this space. I honestly don't know how I could set it up any differently, given the size of the room and my limitations. I measured just now, and my speakers are 1.5 feet from the back wall and 7.5 feet apart from each other. If I pulled them out any further, the left speaker would be right next to a chair. I will research room acoustics though, given what everyone has said about it so far.

 

As to the amp, I asked about that before I bought it, and I was told that it should be ok; however, I still have time to return these items without charge if I want to do that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ecwl]

I have seen on two occasions where people accidentally short circuited their speaker wires slightly. Not enough to stop the amp from working but enough to cause the volume to be significantly lower than it should be and causing distortions. Very weird. So when you are checking to make sure your speaker cables phase is correct, you should check for short circuits too.

 

[ecwl]

I have the same room limitations as your system. But you can still toe in your speakers. That's rotating your speakers more towards the centre at a few degrees at a time. So the speaker still stays in place. Also if you can, you should consider moving your speakers closer to each other.

 

Of course, if the harshness is coming from uneven boomy bass, you would have to move things around more. But somehow I doubt it because you describe needing to turn up the volume.

 

[tpoole638]

 

Someone commented that there should be no way I am getting more sound from the Bose/ipod than the NAD+DAC. I did not mean to say that I was getting more sound from the Bose....I am definitely getting more sound (loudness primarily) from my new system; but not really any significantly BETTER sound. Marginally better for sure, but not that much better. And, like I mentioned before, the same album I listened to to compare the two was more pleasant to listen to from the Bose because harshness was not present.

 

I have found after buying this equipment that my primary priority is on sound quality...particularly in regards to the music being 3-dimensional, dynamic, space between instruments (especially in the mids & highs), and crisp, clear, highs. I am not particularly concerned anymore with it being mind-numbingly loud, although I do like it loud every now and again.

 

 

 

 

 

[tpoole638]

"Of course, if the harshness is coming from uneven boomy bass, you would have to move things around more. But somehow I doubt it because you describe needing to turn up the volume."

 

-The harshness is not coming from uneven boomy bass...in fact, the bass is the best part about the sound. I am really pleased with the bass. The rest of the sound is the problem. And yeah, I have to turn it up fairly loud to get a sound quality different from my old stuff.

 

My new system sounds alot louder than my Bose. ALOT LOUDER. But that is it really. Like I said, it sounds marginally better, and given the money spent and the equipment in the new system it should. It should sound much more than marginally better...the adjective I should be using is something like "other-wordly" better, or I should be saying something like the two are not even comparable. The bass is much clearer and cleaner. The bass is "other-wordly" better. Again, that is the only part of it that is though.

 

 

 

[wisnon]

to sweeten up the mids and the high. There is a used one going for $90 at www.audiocircle.com

 

You have an integrated with a remote, so why not control volume with that and leave the digital volume at max?

 

Finally, though NAD and PSB is from the same group and they should in theory have good synergy, that does not seem to be the case here. The metal tweeters seem to be part of the harshness problem.

 

I would suggest looking at the model Lore-S from www.tektondesign.com

($1500 a pair). Dynamics and resolution in one package.

 

[spdif-usb]

Like I tried to suggest, the hightones are distorted. It's one of the most important reasons why I hardly ever listen to music on CD. At first I was assuming the cause of the problem wasn't CD. I was assuming it had to be some sort of flaw in my system. Until I found out the fact most $50K - $70K systems that I have heard are worsening the problem rather than curing it, that was.

But the frequency response of your speakers doesn't go any higher than 23 kHz according to the link you posted so that probably explains alot about the tweeters IMO.

Like I also tried to suggest, the ES9018 chip is known to be VERY picky about its implementation. For example, the Wyred4Sound DAC-2 sounded unbearably harsh to me. The harshness of the Peachtree Nova was somewhere halfway in between but still nowhere nearly acceptable to me.

The "wow" factor that you seem to be looking for is something I hadn't expected from my system before I decided to build it. Instead, I had only anticipated for good value. Turns out it not only gave me that initial impression of it being other-wordly better. Because, in the long run, it's been giving me that other impression, which nobody believes each time when I talk about it versus the price (except those who listen to the sound rather than blindly relying on some "guru" advice). :-)

 

[DigiPete]

Be aware, that human ability to hear details are better at higher sound pressure.

Good recording sounds better and bad compressed recordings sounds worse.

 

Your new and more powerful system may just reveal the true nature of the music files.

You say yourself that some songs consistently sounds good, I would take that as a tell tale.

 

It seems that you have quite a capable little system, so I propose you try it out with the best possible music source.

 

So:

 

a) Download some free music samples from a high quality provider, say 2l.no in 24/96.

b) Connect your computer directly with USB.

c) Make absolutely sure the the computer delivers bit perfect. Get BitPerfect if you run iTunes on a Mac.

It's cheap, few setting to f*ck up and it'll switch the sampling freq. for you.

 

If that solves your harsh highs, you know it is not your equipment and you can tick that off your list.

 

And good luck.

 

[Paul R]

That amp will drive very tough speaker loads here, so I do not suspect an issue with it being able to drive your speakers, but if you can get your dealer to loan you a more powerful amp, it would not hurt to give it a try.

 

Part of what might be happening is you are learning to hear better, and poorly recorded material just sounds worse on a good system.

 

Still, I think room setup is probably a big culprit. Perhaps the speakers need to be closer together, or a couple inches further in or out. All depends on the room, where you are sitting, and so forth.

 

Why don't you describe the room for us?

 

Paul

 

 

[4est]

A photo would go a long ways in our understanding of what is going on in your room.