What makes a good preamp?

[Paul R]

I don't really know what makes one better than another. Is a $650 Parasound 2100 a good deal? If so, why is it so cheap compared to say, a Peachtree Grand Pre at $3000? How about a Quad 99?

 

I am open to just about any ideas here. The NAD M51 sounds like a smart idea, and it can take two HDMI connections in as well. And at twice the price, so can a Linn DS machine (and that one is a high quality music player too.)

 

There is so much stuff out there I am just flat confused! The obvious choice for me might be to go with one of the Odessey Preamps ($1500 - $2000).

 

I'm not going to have much opportunity to audition these things either.

 

Right now, I am tending to get a low cost unit and learn by experience. By "low cost" I mean at or under about $750. For a nice integrated unit, under $2500 is what I would like to find. $5000 sounds more like what I might have to spend though!

 

HELP!

 

 

Thanks

-Paul

 

 

[wgscott]

The Peachtree has their best DAC in it too.

 

Their pre-amp is a passive buffer.

 

If you are interested in an alternative that doesn't break the bank:

http://doddaudio.com/BatteryPoweredTubeBufferPreamp.aspx

 

From what I understand, the problem is that we need to attenuate a signal from the DAC, not amplify it.

 

[Paul R]

That's interesting! I'll email them and ask for more details. Not sure it will fit the bill, but it sure is pretty!

 

-Paul

 

 

[AudioDoctor]

Peachtree is coming out with a Nova Pre as well.

 

coming soon, 24/192 asynch usb

 

http://signalpathint.com/index.php/Novapre/Novapre.html

 

probably going to be cheaper than the Grand Pre too.

 

[wgscott]

NovaPre - Pre-Order Today!

Price: $999.00

 

It will be mine. Oh yes, it will be mine.

 

It looks like they are also coming out with a Class D amp that looks almost the same as the one I built into one of their cases! I hope mine inspired them.

 

 

 

[firedog]

It's actually 3 devices in one box: preamp, DAC, and tube buffer.

 

Talked to a dealer today who sells the Peachtree grand pre, W4S products, and PS Audio PWD MkII.

 

His rankings: as preamp 1)Peachtree grand

 

AS DAC: 1)PS PWD MkII; 2)Peachtree; 3) W4s

 

His opinion: the new PWD is slightly better than the Peachtree Grand as a DAC, and the Peachtree is better as a pre. Slight preference overall from him for the PWD MKII, but he said which one will actually sound better in practice depends on each system and each listener. He couldn't praise the preamp section of the Peachtree enough, saying that it would be worth the $3000 just as a pre. Liked the peachtree as a pre better than the well regarded W4S pre stand alone.

 

BTW, Peachtree has come out with a standalone class D amp (220W channel) and with the Grand Integrated, which is a DAC, pre, tube buffer, and power amp all in one.

 

[realhifi]

If you do go with a "low cost preamp to learn by experience" you will learn that there is no free lunch. I believe in buying once and buying right so that you have something you love for good period of time. Then if the upgrade bug hits down the road you are actually looking at upgrading rather than just sampling something different.

 

[Paul R]

Problem is, I am not clear about what makes a good preamp. Or to put it another way, what to listen for in a preamp that makes a difference, if that makes any sense. And with the pricing being, if anything, more scattered than DACs it makes pricing an even more unreliable judge than usual.

 

Add in that I believe I need a HT bypass, and it gets even more confusing, at least to me.

 

Paul

 

 

[Kimo]

I prefer passive, preferably built into an integrated platform. I have owned a Fi X, Leben 300, Art Audio Carissa, and finally the Pass INT30A and they all have followed this approach. Certainly, they all sounded different, but they shared the common trait of openness. That being said, if someone wanted an active stage, I would advise them to first look at the preamp offerings on hand from the manufacturer of their amp. Something to be said for synergy. I would advise against cheap tube preamps (though the Audible Illusions was pretty good) as they tend to thicken the sound in my experience.

 

The worst combinations that I have heard utilized tube preamps and solid state amps. I know that some say that you get the best of both worlds, but I certainly haven't heard it. The closest that I came to getting a sound I liked was with the aforementioned AI and the Audio Research 100.2.

 

The preamp is a bit of dinosaur, is it not, unless you are looking to get the benefit of dedicated built in phono stage. Good luck with your search.

 

[wgscott]

I was in a hurry when I posted the Dodd buffer link, but it is also a DIY project that can be done rather inexpensively. If you look at the AudioCircle thread on it, you will see a lot of people are extremely impressed.

 

I hadn't touched a soldering iron (except to do rare repairs) in 15 years before I assembled my amp kit. It really isn't that hard (although I do kind of suck at soldering).

 

[jackfish]

You can try a $450 Emotiva USP-1 in your own home with your other equipment and if you don't like it send it back within 30 days for a purchase price refund. I think it is a good preamp. Its not a $16,000 Burmester 011, but it plays way above its sub-$500 price point.

 

[thesurfingalien]

Hi Paul,

 

I am not sure what kind of sources you have right now so I limit my response to analogue.

 

As far as I know, pretty much all sources (phono excluded obviously) do not need an extra stage of pre-amplification. In my experience, a passive "preamp" (so just input-switches and attenuation) will do the best job. I am not sure if you are into DIY, but I have seen some pretty neat designs for these. Usually those use stepped attenuators which seem to surpass regular (even high-end) pots in both audible quality and durability.

 

Peter

 

 

 

[Rob McCance]

Battery Powered TUBE preamp - now that's just crazy. Nothing like burning through batteries keeping the filament of a tube lit.... also going through a noisy voltage upconverter to get to the plate voltage you need.

 

All for $1595 with a wood shop looking face..

 

There's no end to the audiophile madness.

 

If you generally agree that you really can't add anything but distortion to a source signal, and if you need no gain, then all you need is attenuation.

 

All that said, if someone would please slip me this:

 

http://www.audioresearch.com/SP17.html

 

I would be greatly appreciated because I want a remote and a phono stage with my preamp of the future.

 

 

 

 

 

[audio47r]

I wish I had a little more time but I can only make a few brief comments. OP, you may not realize it, but you made a great choice to ask about a preamp, as opposed to just getting a cheap one. Most new people, over look the preamp and make more exciting purchaces like an amp or speakers. It is at least as important as any piece in the system and if you ask any good designer, it is the most difficult kind of piece to design. Not only that, it is costly to make a good one. The main, overall, reason for this is that the lower the voltage that you are working with, the more sensitive the signal is to change. For example, another post made a comment about using a stepped ladder of resistors, as opposed to just buying an off the shelf variable resistor. Typically, audio components have a retail price of about 4 to 5 time the cost of the parts. If you have a volume that goes from 0-99, you need about 100 single resistors. From a really good company (Vishay is a popular choice for this type of thing), each resistor may be something like $5 per unit. $500 turns into about $2000 at the retail level just for the cost of some of the parts to make the volume control. Of course all this now has to be assembles by hand. I can go on with more examples but just understand that you are not getting a good preamp cheap. For the most part, I very strongly agree with the other posters that recommend a passive unit. (Either by itself or as part of an integrated amp) It is very sound advice and it wil eliminate a ton of potential problems. Where I do differ, is that, at least for me, there is a cutoff point in price, where well designed active units outperform passives. Right around $3000 retail is where I start to look at active over passive. One last thing. (I think someone else mentioned this too), NEVER do something foolish and buy a preamp to "fix" something else in the system. It is very common to buy a tube preamp to "soften" up an amp or speakers. Never works. If you mess up an buy a bad amp, sell it and get another one. If you try to fix it with a preamp (and cables), it will be an expensive failure. If I am not clear about anything, please post and I will clarify when I have a little more time.

 

[Paul R]

Do you ever get ay clicks or pops with the Emotiva? -Paul

 

 

[Paul R]

Hi Peter -

 

Three, sometimes four HDMI sources, input from a DAC, and occasionally a phono input.

 

Perhaps what I should be looking for is an audiophile grade Pre/Pro, if there is such a critter.

 

I really like the idea of passive attenuation. I wonder if I could eliminated the need for a HT bypass by taking the pre-outs from the T747 and feeding them into an analog input? Essentially, the pre outs are going to the amp right now.

 

-Paul

 

 

[Paul R]

@Audio47r

 

So, basically in the $3K and under range, look at passive, above $3K, look at active.

That really helps, because I would have probably inverted that.

 

Talked to my local guys today, and they favor some ARC preamps, and tell me that like an amp, a good preamp should just be "missing" when I listen to it. In other words, not adding any coloration to the sound.

 

-Paul

 

 

 

[Kimo]

http://www.firstwatt.com/b1.html

 

http://www.renohifi.com/Instocklist.htm

 

995.00 for a buffered passive.

 

I believe that you can try before you buy. Shipping should be cheap and you could see if you like the passive approach.

 

[Mark Powell]

The Music First range has been very highly praised. They use transformers with many taps. Some have said the best preamps in existence at any price. The cost is not 'lunatic' but they are certainly not 'budget'.

 

[Chip S]

Being new this forum Iusually just read, evaluate and learn but for this topic I have some not so humble opinions. I very much prefer an active preamp and it should have tubes. If shopping used ARC, Conrad-Johnson or Audible Illusions are excellent choices and good arguments could be made for all three. I owned the Audible Illusions until a roommate moved and took it with them...

 

Currently I have the Eastern Electric MiniMax with upgraded caps and NOS Phillips Miniwatt 12 AU7 tubes. A simple 3 tube unit that sounds very good with my Audio Sector Patek.

 

If I won the lottery or had a better job I'd have the Coincident Statement Line Stage and thank the audio gods for my good fortune.

 

Kinda fun looking for new gear isn't it

 

[esldude]

I don't believe I have heard an active analog pre-amp that is as transparent or simply without signature as a decent A/D converter and then fed into a good D/A that can also do digital volume control. And no the D/A doesn't have to be extremely expensive.

 

If you can pick a D/A with volume control included you only need an A/D to have it. One good one is the MSB Audio Director. A bit long in the tooth, but still available and good. It operates up to 96 khz/24 bit. Has 9 analog inputs. Has an op-amp based phone stage as well, though MSB says for serious systems you should use an outboard phono stage. These are $298 here: http://www.sound4sale.com/products/homeProducts.php

 

Of course there are a few other ways to do A/D conversion.

 

I do think there are two versions of good pre-amps. One is transparent and high fidelity to the source. The other is perhaps not entirely truthful, but beautiful and beguiling in how it portrays the music. My preference is the transparency as the pleasingly colored pre's often interact with other things in the system when you change other components. The truthful variety won't interact that way though it may reveal problems it isn't responsible for causing.

 

[Mark Powell]

Interesting you say tubes. Here in the UK in the 1970s/80s an ARC tube preamp and a big Krell transistor Class A power amp became almost a 'standard'. You didn't have Hi Fi at all if you didn't have those! If you could not afford them you bought Naim.

 

My stuff is the other way around. Naim preamps go well with tube power amps, there seems to be some kind of synergy.

 

Passive preamps? Most of the 'Pot in a box' ones squash the dynamics. But you really should try the transformer based Music First ones. You might be surprised.

 

[thesurfingalien]

Hi Paul,

 

That seems like a pretty good idea (the HT bypass).

 

About a year ago I spotted a remote controlled passive pre-amp with 6 analogue inputs. The things I really liked about it were the used high-quality relays for source-switching and the high-quality stepped attenuator that was motor-driven.

 

Unfortunately (stupid me!), I did not save the link. I have been looking for it for some time now, also to send it to another person, but for the life of me, I can not find it again.

 

Peter

 

 

 

[Paul R]

Thanks for the input, I greatly appreciate it.

 

This is very fun, but also very confusing and a little unnerving too. I always thought that preamps were basically attenuators and switching devices. But they are apparently more than that.

 

I have filled up 11 pages in my journal with notes about preamps. The most common advice has been not to "scrimp". As soon as I figure out what "scrimp" means in terms of (preamps, not prams - darn spell checker!) , I will be sure to avoid it.

 

I have bee thinking sort using a Peachtree Nova as a Pre. It is on the cash list, is apparently built to be a preamp, has analog inputs, and also has a HT bypass. Don't know if it would sound any better than the NAD T747 though. I definitely want better if I am going to be spending money!

 

Paul

 

 

[Audio_ELF]

Paul, did you know there's a Nova Pre 'coming soon'?