Native DSD files, HQPlayer & Mytek Stereo192-DSD

[manisandher]

I know there are separate threads covering HQPlayer and the Mytek DAC, but I wanted to share my experience with both of these working together (other than Miska, I'm not aware of anyone on these boards using this combination).

 

The Mytek DAC arrived only this morning. Everything installed with no issues whatsoever (it helped that I was familiar with the Dice firewire drivers, as an owner of Weiss gear which also uses them).

 

And the sound? Well, right now I'm playing 'Thriller' (extracted from SACD to .dff) natively through HQPlayer using 0xAA through to the Mytek via firewire . I am very, very impressed. I am quickly changing my mind about DSD (hated SACD with a vengence).

 

More later once I've converted one of my CAPS machines to Miska's 'Network Audio Adapter' (see attached). This should improve performance quite considerably.

 

Mani.

 

 

[PeterSt]

(other than Miska, I'm not aware of anyone on these boards using this combination).

 

Hmm ... I didn't follow the Mytek thread, but this is unexpected to me (if true indeed). I mean, I would do that ...

 

But now what my post is about.

Mani, I think you know what I listen to;

As you know I am working on Direct DSD and the software is in the stage of almost ready. However, I have "stuck" myself because of anomalies I see. Or seem to see (in dsf or dff, both different), because at this time it could just be me. Also, -again at this time- I rely heavily on what BlueCoast made of it (which is the same recording of which I already could proove that something is different from other dsf's I have, but, converted via AudioGate to PCM), plus ... that other phenomenon is AudioGate itself at converting from PCM to dff.

 

All in other words ...

Is it possible for you to perceive anomalies somehow ?

I am not talking about the Mytek, but about DSD itself.

 

I know, I am asking about the sheer impossible, but that's why I refer to what I listen to and what you know about. There too anomalies could be present (talking Redbook now), but I do not perceive them. But then of course, this may need pointing them out (all is a matter of experience and having to encountered it once).

 

It may also be of importance that the whole Jackson stuff generally doesn't work. The Thriller track itself is quite okay by accident, but the remainder dies in the too much being audible of the synthesized drums (Madonna the same). I think we talked about this once.

Of course, the comparison should be apples and oranges in the first place, because this Thriller example is Hires (DSD) vs. Redbook. But still.

 

So one of the interesting things to watch for is these synthesized drums, and whether they are now not disturbing and if not, how; To refresh your mind : what I once said is that this type of music became quite unlistenable because the representation has become too good, and the fake drums became profound because of it.

 

Thanks,

Peter

 

[k-man]

Mani,

 

Once again I'm amazed how you're shining the light on what is bleeding edge in Computer Audio. While I'm hopeful I can be on course to get DSD playback, examples like this can send me in a different trajectory. I really can't keep up ;-)

 

[manisandher]

"Is it possible for you to perceive anomalies somehow ?"

 

I think I know what you're talking about. One of the reasons I sold my two high end (back then at least) SACD players was that although I really liked the bottom end and the general 'fullness' of the sound, the top-end just never sounded right to me. You're one of the few people who seems to understand me when I say that all modern DACs (with SDMs necessarily built into them) just sound too polite to me. My recollection of SACD is that it went even further than 'too polite' - positively dull and bland, compared to the best 24/192 (or 24/176.4) I've heard, or indeed 16/44.1 upsampled to 24/705.6 in XXHighEnd (although in fairness, I think I hear some anomalies with Arc Prediction now).

 

It's very early days, but I'm actually hearing the same 'blandness/dullness' from some of my SACD-to-dff rips, compared to the 16/44.1 of the same music. But some of the rips sound very, very good indeed.

 

Before I make any further judgements, I'd like to rip a few of the DMP SACDs I have that were recorded direct to DSD. If these sound as 'alive' as the music coming out of XXHE and the NOS1, then I'll be convinced that DSD has no anomalies.

 

Mani.

 

[manisandher]

"Once again I'm amazed how you're shining the light on what is bleeding edge in Computer Audio."

 

K-man, in truth I think I'm a few months behind the real bleeding edge.

 

Peope like Miska and PeterSt are on a totally different planet. But I'm really excited to be finally in a position to properly compare their two totally innovative but radically different approaches to computer audio.

 

In my head I know exactly the type of sound that I'm striving for. And I'll just keep on experimenting with stuff until I get it (or close enough to it not to be bothered).

 

Mani.

 

[PeterSt]

Yes you. Trust me, I was waiting for the day you'd anounce something like this (getting yourself a Mytek). Remember, who was getting himself a Pacific Microsonics Two while he ordered an NOS1 something like a year earlier (without ever cancelling that) ... you. Why ? well, because some people really want the best plus are able to judge in a good fashion (this of course is my own perception but alas).

 

I really have been thinking about getting a Mytek myself, but as really I was waiting for you to do it. And no, we never talked one thing about it.

So, now I don't need to go that (strange anyway) route because some people trust some others ...

 

Peter

 

[ted_b]

You might wanna play with the DSD filter settings, too, for whatever its worth. And realize the Mytek will break in very slowly, much slower than most DACs I've encountered (Weiss, MH, Antelope, Berkeley, Forssel, etc).

 

Yes, my rips are all over the board, sonically, which makes sense. They are sourced from every possible medium. Labels like DMP, BlueCoast, Telarc and Pentatone's pure DSD sound sublime, though. So do great analog-to-DSD stuff like RCA Living Stereos and the Hoffman/Gray AP jazz remasters. Anyway, we DSD biggots are waiting with bated breath about your discoveries, and your NAA project with Miska.

 

[manisandher]

I've just had one of the most painless computer experiences in my life. Miska posted a USB stick over to me loaded with a bootable Linux OS and his Network Audio Adapter software, all pre-installed with pretty much all the Linux audio drivers currently available. I took my CAPS (original version with Intel D945GSEJT motherboard), ripped out the HD and installed a firewire card into the PCI socket. I then stuck Miska's USB stick into a USB port and an ethernet cable (connected to my home network) into the LAN socket. I switched the NAA on and saw it boot up in seconds. I went over to my desktop PC and fired up HQPlayer (the Network Audio version) which recognized the NAA immediately. I was listening to DSD files (.dff) streamed from the NAS drive in my basement within seconds. I'm writing this on the same desktop PC and no matter what I do, I can't detect any affect on the sound whatsoever.

 

Oh and the sound is much, much better than with the Mytek connected via firewire/USB to the totally silent dedicated music PC sitting in my office.

 

More later...

 

Mani.

 

[manisandher]

"I really have been thinking about getting a Mytek myself, but as really I was waiting for you to do it."

 

As far as I was concerned, it was a pretty low risk move on my part. From what other people have said, it's a very good DAC for the price and I just felt that if I didn't want to keep it, I'd have no problem in selling it on for little loss (mine is a lovely silver unit).

 

Straight out of the box, connected to my music PC via USB, the Mytek sounded lovely, but clearly not in the same league as the NOS1 (even with the Mytek playing DSD and the NOS1 playing 16/44.1 - yes, the NOS1 really is that good).

 

BUT...

 

Connected via firewire to the Network Audio Adapter, the Mytek sounds phenomenal. I've just compared the Mytek playing 'Kind of Blue' (.dff files ripped from SACD) to the NOS1 playing 'Kind of Blue' (16/44.1 wav files upsampled to 24/705.6 in XXHighEnd) and the Mytek is superior... and by a fair margin. I can't believe it myself, but it's just the case.

 

I have absolutely no doubt that the real star here is the Network Audio Adapter. Maybe I've finally achieved the 'holy grail' - absolutely no influence from the computer hardware, the OS or the software player whatsoever. Time will tell...

 

But for now, I just want to thank Miska from the bottom of my heart.

 

Mani.

 

[losingmyreligion]

 

Mani,

 

good stuff, thanks for sharing.

 

Am I correct in understanding that your CAPS V2 hardware is now running a stripped down version of Linux, custom-built by Miska, to separate the bulk of the processing from the box connected to the DAC?

 

I believe this is (a version of) the "3 box" solution John Swenson described just over 3 years ago.

 

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/pcaudio/messages/4/42367.html

 

 

"The only things that affect the sound are whats in the small box, what it is, what the power supply is, what ITS OS is etc. BUT we can come up with some simple standardized solutions for this that will work with many, many different systems."

 

cheers,

clay

 

PS, NO linux drivers available for the NOS1?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[k-man]

Misread Clay's Q

 

[ted_b]

Is the NAA connected to the Mytek via firewire and home metwork via ethernet, and the music pc connected only via ethernet?

 

I own both a PK90USb and an Alix box (linux MPD) neither of which currently have a firewire card but that's easy enough to solve. Would either work as NAA (given a set of magic code amnd a magic USB wand from Miska). I alredy own any one of a number of ethernetted music pc's (Windows desktop, Mac Mini, etc)

 

Thx

Ted

 

[Adyc]

I have a question on NAA. Does the data sent by Processing computer to NAA computer subject to jitter? Or does the Processing computer just send the processed data to NAA computer and the NAA computer stream to DAC?

 

 

 

[elcorso]

Mani, not all SACDs have the nice SQ, but they are a lot very good.

 

Some recommendations:

 

Blue Coast Recordings DL's. The link is well known.

 

David Elias "The Window" DL: http://davidelias.com/hidef_downloads.html

(This SACD is at US$145 at Amazon right now!).

 

For ripping, all the TAS SACD's from eBay, the choice is good, to buy then the SACD from tracks that meet your taste.

 

All the SACDs from MDG (Reimund Grimm production).

 

All SACDs from Delos (Gus Skinas DSD recording).

 

All SACDs from Linn Records.

 

All SACD from Stockfish Recordings.

 

All SACD from Acoustic Sounds.

BTW, Shelby Lynne "Just a Little Lovin'" is on SACD pre-order.

 

Maybe Ted could make a long list of his prefered ones.

 

Cheers!

 

Roch

 

[1audio]

Does Miska's software do filtering on the DSD stream? I would expect the Mytek to have internal filtering but one of the strengths of Miska's software is its ability to do sophisticated filtering. And the flexibility of the Signalyst filtering options is a lot to deal with at first.

 

[Miska]

I have a question on NAA. Does the data sent by Processing computer to NAA computer subject to jitter? Or does the Processing computer just send the processed data to NAA computer and the NAA computer stream to DAC?

 

Processed data is sent and flows into an asynchronous FIFO and audio device's audio clock extracts it from there. Since each side of the FIFO is independent, it keeps the two isolated in terms of jitter.

 

 

[Rasmussen]

After following this interesting thread, I am wondering the same thing as Ted. Is Miska's new software available commercially and what hardware requirement does it entail? Do you need a customs built caps or would a computer running Linux do? And also - because I am still completely new to his hobby - would a computer running his software replace for example a Mac Mini in a setup including a USB hardisk and a Mytek dac?

 

I hope some of you will educate me on all these rather basic questions!

 

[Miska]

Does Miska's software do filtering on the DSD stream? I would expect the Mytek to have internal filtering but one of the strengths of Miska's software is its ability to do sophisticated filtering.

 

Up to the current 2.8.0beta1, DSD sources are streamed "bit-perfect" when the target is DSD. So all DSD filtering & co is done by the Mytek (which has three different DSD filter options).

 

Now the latest beta1 has also capability to play PCM to DSD. Upcoming beta2 can also play from DSD to DSD with digital volume control and delays for multichannel. So this is where the (optional) processing capabilities step in, in addition to the already existing PCM targets.

 

 

[Miska]

Is Miska's new software available commercially and what hardware requirement does it entail? Do you need a customs built caps or would a computer running Linux do?

 

Hardware requirements are a bit complex topic, you'd probably want something that is smaller scale and quiet and fits your other requirements. From software point of view almost any computer running a supported Linux version would do, although you'd probably want to minimize the amount of software it has running and tune it a bit in other ways too. Mytek Firewire support requires some extra work for the drivers.

 

Software itself is available for DIY oriented (I just haven't yet updated my pages for the latest 1.1.4 version).

 

 

[Rasmussen]

Thanks for the quick response. After having consulted your homepage, I guess I could run a Mac mini with windows 7 connected by Ethernet cable to the network audio converter and then to the Mytek? My main question is thus what you would recommend as hardware for the network audio converter - and what kind of configuration of the Mac mini the HQplayer would require to work well?

 

Finally, what kind of storage system do you use for our music, does he HQplayer have a library like iTunes? Sorry about my ignorance!

 

[manisandher]

"Once again I'm amazed how you're shining the light on what is bleeding edge in Computer Audio."

 

"I believe this is (a version of) the '3 box' solution John Swenson described just over 3 years ago."

 

So, only 3 years behind the leading edge... haha.

 

But yes, what I've got set up here does sound very similar to what John Swenson was describing. The biggest difference is that the NAA requires HQPlayer - there's no flexibility in terms of software player. Now I like HQPlayer - it has a bunch of great filters for upsampling 16/44.1 to higher PCM rates or even DSD, and of course, can play native DSD. I also quite like it's simple GUI. However, some may be put off with its lack of artwork and general file management functionality. And perhaps the killer for many is that it only runs of Win or Linux.

 

Mani.

 

[manisandher]

"Is the NAA connected to the Mytek via firewire and home metwork via ethernet, and the music pc connected only via ethernet?"

 

Yes, in my case the 'powerful' (and presumably ultra noisey) PC, powered from the regular house mains, is connected via CAT6 to the network switch. The NAA, sitting on my hifi shelf and powered by a linear PS fed from the ultra-quiet dedicated mains circuit, is connected to the network switch also. The great thing about ethernet is that it is already galvanically isolated, but I happen to use an extra 'medical' isolator between the switch and the NAA, just in case.

 

Mani.

 

[manisandher]

"NO linux drivers available for the NOS1?"

 

No. And none in the pipeline either.

 

But having heard the affect that the NAA has on the sound, I will push and push to get PeterSt to sort something out. If the NAA can transform the Mytek in the way I've experienced, I can only imagine what it would do with the NOS1. What I'm absolutely convinced of is that I've only heard a fraction of what the NOS1 is really capable of.

 

But I'm not holding my breath.

 

Mani.

 

[Miska]

I guess I could run a Mac mini with windows 7 connected by Ethernet cable to the network audio converter and then to the Mytek?

 

That would be similar to one of the configurations I use. I have a Mac Mini with Win7 Ultimate, but it's even connected using WLAN ([email protected]) at the moment. Works fine. NAA is connected with a gigabit ethernet.

 

Finally, what kind of storage system do you use for our music, does he HQplayer have a library like iTunes?

 

I have this kind of HDD connected to FW800 of the Mini:

http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.aspx?id=420

I have also NAS, which is practically a Linux machine running Samba server.

 

HQPlayer has it's own library system which allows content to be seamlessly distributed among the local and NAS storage. Desktop version doesn't support cover art, since there's no space in the GUI for it (I'm trying to keep it small enough to work even at 800x600 display resolution).

 

My main question is thus what you would recommend as hardware for the network audio converter

 

I don't have a specific hardware recommendation at the moment for use with Mytek Firewire. I'm still in the process of reshuffling my hardware configuration for this particular case. For S/PDIF, AES/EBU or USB things are a bit easier.

 

and what kind of configuration of the Mac mini the HQplayer would require to work well

 

Nothing special really. If you'd like to use Remote Desktop, Win7 Pro or Ultimate is needed.

 

 

[manisandher]

Hi Ted, hi Roch,

 

Thanks for the recommendations guys - I'll look into these.

 

I ripped Steve Davis's 'Quality of Silence' last night and boy, what great, great SQ. I think this is the best sound I've ever achieved in any system I've had over the last 25 years or so.

 

But I have to say that good old redbook upsampled to 24/176.4 using some of HQPlayer's nifty filters also sounds very, very good indeed. I'll experiment with on-the-fly PCM to DSD upsampling in HQPlayer also at some point.

 

BUT... I just want to reiterate that all of this is possible with the Mytek connected directly to the music PC also. But in this case the results are merely 'good' as opposed to 'great'.

 

Mani