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The Purpose of Audio Reproduction

fas42

Entry posted by fas42 in Creating Stereo Magic

Time to crack this back open again, 😄.

 

Yes, what's the point? There could be a zillion answers, but my answer is to be true to the contents of a recording ... I was going to post this to that unloved thread, now gone to zombie land, but I'll do it here, instead,

 

 

Bit of a mess, eh? And, this is the remaster, from 2015!! - I've got it on a double CD from 1998 - a low cost release - sludgy, plus? ... You bet!

 

What should a system do to, for this? In my book, absolutely nothing more than the best job possible to being accurate to the data - now, what I'm getting at the moment is not elimination of the sludge - but is a realistic pickup of what was heard in that club. The reproduction, currently, is not the best it could be - my active speakers still need to be refined more; which will gain me greater clarity, a better connection to the musicians doing their thing ... this sort of track is very helpful in making it clear where the shortfalls are.

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botrytis
1 hour ago, kumakuma said:

 

Your need to convince others that your road is best in post after post and your constant belittling of those who follow a different path shows the emptiness of your words.

 

His road Is basically over broken glass and hot coals. Some people enjoy pain, others find easier simpler ways.

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fas42
1 hour ago, kumakuma said:

 

Your need to convince others that your road is best in post after post and your constant belittling of those who follow a different path shows the emptiness of your words.

 

If there was a decent standard out there, that was part of the normal landscape, then "my need" would be far less - my belittling, as you call it, is of the arrogance of those who buy expensive gear, and who are then certain that what they experience is quite superior to what those who have "lesser" equipment - status from what you spend is not part of my repertoire ...

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botrytis
48 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

If there was a decent standard out there, that was part of the normal landscape, then "my need" would be far less - my belittling, as you call it, is of the arrogance of those who buy expensive gear, and who are then certain that what they experience is quite superior to what those who have "lesser" equipment - status from what you spend is not part of my repertoire ...

The arrogance is from you, not from anyone else.

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kumakuma
49 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

If there was a decent standard out there, that was part of the normal landscape, then "my need" would be far less - my belittling, as you call it, is of the arrogance of those who buy expensive gear, and who are then certain that what they experience is quite superior to what those who have "lesser" equipment - status from what you spend is not part of my repertoire ...

 

Perhaps you could take your crusade to where such folks hang out.

 

I don't know anyone here who matches the profile of an audiophile that you've created in your imagination.

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fas42
12 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

Perhaps you could take your crusade to where such folks hang out.

 

I don't know anyone here who matches the profile of an audiophile that you've created in your imagination.

 

So, who have I, "belittled" here - care to point me to an example of one such post, please?

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kumakuma
12 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

So, who have I, "belittled" here - care to point me to an example of one such post, please?

 

I would put every one of your "aren't audiophiles so strange/confused/weird/out of touch" posts in this category.

 

The undertone is clearly that you feel the rest of us are idiots. 

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fas42
10 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

I would put every one of your "aren't audiophiles so strange/confused/weird/out of touch" posts in this category.

 

The undertone is clearly that you feel the rest of us are idiots. 

 

So, no-one specifically ... let's just say, I'm letting off steam about, yes, the bizarro world of audio!! From my perspective, people endlessly complain about, or espouse solutions to, certain areas of audio, which are completely missing the point! So yes, I'm expressing my irritation that things haven't progressed faster, so that the average standard of replay keeps evolving to a higher level - the latter occurs by accident, rather than by intent - or so it seems to me.

 

The audio fraternity are not idiots, but often are trapped in a certain mindset, which they resolutely refuse to move from - a good example is the belief that the better the rig, the worse non-special recordings sound - from personal experience this is nonsense, but every time I suggest such, I can feel the heat of the anger being expressed, in posts, that anyone could be so stupid to think that! ... ^_^

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kumakuma
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2 hours ago, fas42 said:

The audio fraternity are not idiots, but often are trapped in a certain mindset, which they resolutely refuse to move from - a good example is the belief that the better the rig, the worse non-special recordings sound - from personal experience this is nonsense

 

My personal experience has been the opposite of yours.

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fas42
24 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

My personal experience has been the opposite of yours.

 

Yes, as it would be for most ... 'trapped' in the auditory, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley. When it's mighty close to being realistic, but juuust not quite there, it's quite disturbing, uncomfortable to experience - just as for the visual, :). Climbing out of the valley can be hard - but most certainly is achievable ...

 

Some giveaways ... when people don't like full blown symphonic works recorded in a highly conventional way being played at something like realistic sound levels; the disturbing qualities of system misbehaviour are too prominent, and prevent one being 'effortlessly' immersed in the sound field - it would be a revelation to many, I suspect, to hear how 'clean' this can sound ... which is why I regularly mention such concepts ...

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botrytis

Frank, most of your tweaks have no scientific proof behind them. 

 

Example, weight on top of speakers does help, but too much causes the sides holding up the weight to be more like a tight wire and they will vibrate more. Hence why, bracing, differing thickness of cabinets sides, different materials all are used to deal with this. If it was as easy as you say, the manufacturers would have done it already.

 

Please enjoy your little world and be happy. The rest of us will do the same in ours.

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kumakuma
9 hours ago, fas42 said:

Some giveaways ... when people don't like full blown symphonic works recorded in a highly conventional way being played at something like realistic sound levels; the disturbing qualities of system misbehaviour are too prominent, and prevent one being 'effortlessly' immersed in the sound field - it would be a revelation to many, I suspect, to hear how 'clean' this can sound ... which is why I regularly mention such concepts ...

 

No one here can hear what you are hearing so continuing to blather on about your beliefs serves no useful purpose except perhaps self-gratification on your part.

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fas42
6 hours ago, botrytis said:

Frank, most of your tweaks have no scientific proof behind them. 

 

Example, weight on top of speakers does help, but too much causes the sides holding up the weight to be more like a tight wire and they will vibrate more. Hence why, bracing, differing thickness of cabinets sides, different materials all are used to deal with this. If it was as easy as you say, the manufacturers would have done it already.

 

Please enjoy your little world and be happy. The rest of us will do the same in ours.

 

Scientific proof? The name of the game is engineering, 100% so - nearly all audio setups are far too fragile, in that they are sensitive to every tiny variation in their configuration; the 'madness' of the cable 'snake oil' industry is one of the most obvious symptoms ... the rig that most people have is a complex effects unit, which 'remasters' what's on the recording - and that's why most reviews are all about how it makes the owner's recordings "sound different" :)

 

A robust, transparent to the recording playback chain will always "sound the same" - as I have said many times, if the system has any pretensions to accuracy, it can't be anything else. Now, it's an interesting hobby, playing with the sound that you hear, and there's nothing wrong with that. Which is why mastering studios are full of equipment for doing exactly that. But don't confuse that activity with the other one, of retrieving precisely what's on the recording. The latter is what interests me - because if you do that well enough, it creates magic. In the room. With any recording.  Which, for me, is a good enough, "Purpose" ^_^.

 

As regards speakers, manufacturers have been doing it for years - Wilson is an obvious example. The more you turn the speaker cabinet into the equivalent of a bank safe, in terms of "deadness", the better. Small monitors, like my cheap actives are already way ahead in this department; rapping the sides is vastly more impressive than what you get with most large speakers costing, say, 20 times as much.

 

The trouble with the bigger world, is that one has to put up with mediocre sound - in most places where you go. I got pretty sick of paying money, to have to put up with mediocrity. Simple solution ... don't go - not really brilliant. So, in my small way, I'm saying there is an alternative ...

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fas42
6 hours ago, kumakuma said:

 

No one here can hear what you are hearing so continuing to blather on about your beliefs serves no useful purpose except perhaps self-gratification on your part.

 

Anyone who has ever heard a system which effortlessly throws out an immersive, 'overwhelming' soundscape, which draws you totally into the musicians' world of that moment, knows exactly what's it's like, when playback nails it. Which covers pretty well most audiophiles, I suspect :). Now, having heard such you can walk away, and say, "Well, I can never do that!" - and just put up with what your current rig does. Or, decide you will work towards understanding what's necessary to achieve that level of presentation - and make it happen.

 

Your choice ...

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kumakuma
19 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Anyone who has ever heard a system which effortlessly throws out an immersive, 'overwhelming' soundscape, which draws you totally into the musicians' world of that moment, knows exactly what's it's like, when playback nails it. Which covers pretty well most audiophiles, I suspect :). Now, having heard such you can walk away, and say, "Well, I can never do that!" - and just put up with what your current rig does. Or, decide you will work towards understanding what's necessary to achieve that level of presentation - and make it happen.

 

Your choice ...

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

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kumakuma
2 minutes ago, fas42 said:

And why is it, "False" ... ?

 

 

You obviously didn't click the link so perhaps this will make it a little clearer for you:

 

Quote

A false dilemma (sometimes also referred to as a false dichotomy) is a logical fallacy, which occurs when a limited number of options are incorrectly presented as being mutually exclusive to one another or as being the only options that exist, in a situation where that isn’t the case. For example, a false dilemma occurs in a situation where someone says that we must choose between options A or B, without mentioning that option C also exists.

 

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fas42

I did go the link, actually ... but didn't 'grok' what you were trying to say, from that.

 

The choice is, either you, personally, can achieve that high standard of SQ you may have once experienced, using what's available to you; or, there are hurdles, for you, which you believe make it impossible.

 

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kumakuma
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12 minutes ago, fas42 said:

I did go the link, actually ... but didn't 'grok' what you were trying to say, from that.

 

The choice is, either you, personally, can achieve that high standard of SQ you may have once experienced, using what's available to you; or, there are hurdles, for you, which you believe make it impossible.

 

 

I have many other choices. For example, if I hear a "rig" that I like, I can simply buy it.

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fas42
3 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

I have many other choices. For example, if I hear a "rig" that I like, I can simply buy it.

 

I would include, buying a rig that you like, as part of "using what's available to you" - you determine, from some testing, that the gear you currently own, has some limitation in its performance which would just be too difficult to overcome - a simple example, to get the SPLs that create the right presentation, the amplifier goes into clipping - no simple tweaking is going to get you around that. So, you 'swap' what you currently use, for a set of gear in a similar price bracket, that doesn't have this 'handicap' - the financial cost to do this is not an issue.

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Confused
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On 12/8/2023 at 2:57 AM, fas42 said:

 

So, who have I, "belittled" here - care to point me to an example of one such post, please?

Oh I can! Your posts provide a rich seam to mine when I am feeding my ever growing collection of generalisations. So who do you belittle? Audiophiles. Most of the world will care little about this, but belittling Audiophiles on a site called Audiophile Style does seem to be a curious thing to do, if you aim is to inform and take others with you on your journey. Basically you are belittling every member of this forum.

 

And how about this fine generalisation:

 

 If ever there was a group of people who generalised more than audiophiles, I would like to meet them ... the pattern starts, and it sticks, like a wad of chewing gum to the sole of a shoe ... what's wrong with digital, what's wrong with digital ??! Hey, what about this jitter stuff, then ... Aaaahhhh!! Righto, it's jitter, jitter, jitter, jitter, jitter, jitter, jitter, jitter, ad nauseum ...year after year 😝

 

The great thing about the above, is that fas42 himself is worrying about jitter in his Edifier thread, so Frank, you have managed to belittle everyone on this forum, including yourself! (Although as a Brit, I do appreciate self depreciation)

 

Some examples from my collection of generalisations:

 

The audiophile crowd are definitely the worst of the "not getting it" side of things

 

What I see is a high percentage of audiophiles spending very large amounts of money, which cause them to whittle their record collections down to a small number of 'acceptable' albums

 

The ultimate joke is that nearly all audiophiles at some stage, some moment in all the years of their being interested in this hobby have heard a rig working at, or close to this level of SQ - and have been quite blind, err, deaf to what was happening.

 

Anyway, I am all for freedom of speech, so carry on Frank. But.....  If you really do want to convince people of the wisdom of your ideas, it might be best to tone down the rhetoric a bit. As things stand, right or wrong, it does look a little bit like your primary purpose here is to wind up Audiophiles, on a website populated by Audiophiles. Which is all good fun, but will never achieve much.

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Confused
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21 hours ago, kumakuma said:

No one here can hear what you are hearing so continuing to blather on about your beliefs serves no useful purpose except perhaps self-gratification on your part.

A while ago when exchanging some lively posts with Frank, I actually came to the conclusion that personally I simply do not hear things in the same way that Frank does. This perhaps poses an interesting question, in that just how much does personal perception of audio systems vary between individuals? I certainly would not consider my own perceptions to be the basis of some kind of universal truth. 

 

The above is also why I developed FrankFilter, which continues to work nicely for me.

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/66646-expectation-bias/?do=findComment&comment=1214944

 

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chrisc
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I demoed a system to a group of book-club people, none of whom had been exposed to decently reproduced music

 

As well as a good dose of recently recorded classical music, including some recordings of Rachel Podger playing her violin, I included the 1956 recording of Elvis Presley singing "Love Me Tender".   The clarity and freshness of this recording astonished all present

 

The gist of the demo was "better music in the home" and several converts to this end will perhaps explore an option for themselves.  Some mentioned that they did not realise it was possible to identify actual instruments in a band or orchestra

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kumakuma
2 hours ago, Confused said:

A while ago when exchanging some lively posts with Frank, I actually came to the conclusion that personally I simply do not hear things in the same way that Frank does.

 

 

I have reached the same conclusion as you.

 

I would even go as far as to say that most people do not hear things in the same way that Frank does.

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