Martin Logan ESL versus Sound lab speakers

[papageno]

I am curious whether anybody has compared Soundlab speakers to ML speakers. I have martin logan but heard that Sound lab speakers have much better bass extension.

 

[esldude]

Well will make more sense to say which models you wish to compare. I own Soundlab Aura speakers. These are pretty much the current M3 speakers with different cosmetics and a slightly beefier support frame though without PX mylar. Friend has some M3's and another has M1's. Have heard the M-L hybrids of a few different types, but not any full range M-L speakers.

 

In the M-L hybrids, the woofer has always been a sore spot with me. I don't think it matches the quality of the sound from the panel. There is more bass, but it is less nuanced in the hybrids. Being hybrids they play louder with less power. I do think hybrids with a better woofer could integrate with the panels more. I just don't think M-L has put quite enough effort and material into the woofer.

 

The Soundlabs in a room with some space around them and plenty of power (they do like power) have pretty good bass. They actually will respond down to quite low frequencies though not with the kind of authority to make your pants leg flap shall we say. They are subjectively very fast, overall frequency balance top to bottom is quite even and transparent. They have the kind of easy detail that means you can hear into the music with an unforced quality and without the need for extra volume.

 

I would describe the M-L hybrids as being a more dynamic technicolor kind of sound quality. Quite good in itself and capable of being musical with good system matching. They don't sound as clear to the source of the music in my experience. My preference would be some modern Quads or the ESL-63 Quads over the M-L speakers. But that depends on your room, other equipment, and taste in music.

 

[elcorso]

I'm on Martin Logan, I found the Summit X has a very good integration with the self powered bass, but you need a good tube amp.

 

Now I have CLX, also very good, but with a tubed amp. (with a triode amp. they sing like heaven). I matched it with Descent i subwoofers with no problem, since there is special crossover for them. Sometimes I like to listen to it with no subs. to avoid problems with my neighbors.

 

Is a long time I don't listen to Quads, but I'll do it some day.

 

Roch

 

[asindc]

As one can see from my sig, I own ML speakers. While I haven't heard Soundlabs in my system, I do think ML has greatly improved the woofer integration with the last two generations of models. They are still more sensitive to room setup and placement than most non-electrostatic speakers, though.

 

[papageno]

I was trying to compare the M3pX with the ML Summits as they are close on the price range. I have a pair of Vantages and I agree that ML has done a lot to improve the woofer integration but can get better. I have not heard the new quads but know some folks who have had issues with them.

 

[BobH]

( passive sub) and my son owns a pair clx's. We have found that the 'bass' issues of weight and integration both go away when battleship amps are used! The speakers don't necessarily need massive amounts of power, but they do love it when they have it!

 

Powering electrostatics with tube amps is very popular, as it alleviates a lot of the problems associated with the very low impedences these seakers can show at high frequencies. I have always found tube amps, when I've heard them powering 'statics, to be lacking in grip and punch.

 

I run an Audio Research class A pocket battleship and my son runs a Krell 'Bismark' class behomoth! They both waste enough electricity to power a small town, but they do sound wonderful!

 

I can't help with the comparison you are after, but I can say that if you feel things a bit lacking in the bass department, then a half ton of solid state class A something or other may be just what you need to give your system a kick up the backside, as it were!

 

[Mark Powell]

I auditioned the Summit X before buying my big Tannoys and thought the integration was terrible. I have not auditioned the small Electromotion as they were not available then. However -

 

With the 'semi-active' ones like the Summit X you have totally different amps driving it. Yours for the top part, theirs for the lower part. These amps characteristics are likely to be wildly different in all respects. No wonder the integration is poor.

 

The bass is in any case poor. In an attempt to get deep bass from a relatively small box there is a lot of DSP going on, and the cones are overdriven. They are trying to put a elephant in a small box and it doesn't work.

 

Although I have not heard them myself, three UK magazines who usually test anything M-L come up with have all said that barring the full electrostatic one (CLX?) the Electromotion is greatly superior to any of the others, despite the low price, provided you accept the limited bass, which is still not at all bad. Makes sense.

 

And with them you are not wasting half the capability of your maybe expensive power amp.

 

[elcorso]

I don't think so, the Summit X with the Vojtko Voiced™ crossover the integration is instead very good. Sometimes the subwoofers looks hard to setup because room resonances problems, or, because some listeners believes more bass is better bass. But this is a problem with all the speakers I know.

 

Regarding amp. power feeding Martin Logans is also a myth, at least in modern Logans.

 

The Summit X are 91 db/2.83 volts/meter.

 

The CLX are 90 db/2.83 volts/meter.

 

This means power ratio efficiency.

 

My CLX are driven by a VTL ST-150 tubed amp, that means 150 watts/channel in pentode , or, 75/watts/channel in triode mode, being triode my standard configuration. With this, I have enough power to fill my listening room at almost orchestral level, with no grain or distortion.

 

My listening room is about 16' wide, by 20' long, with high ceilings, then, it is big, but not huge. But, I do care a lot for the room acoustics, but this is a very important matter with any speaker.

 

About 10 years ago I had a huge listening room and the speaker was Martin Logans SL3 amplified by tubed pentodes at 150 watts/channel, and never needed more power than this.

 

Roch

 

[catastrofe]

I would highly recommend that you look at Sanders Sound Systems. I never cared for Martin Logans, but I purchased a 10c system from Roger. . .they handily bested my Salk SoundScapes.

 

Plus, he offers a 30 day home trial and he picks up the freight both ways. You have nothing to lose (other than time).

 

[Mark Powell]

I wanted to like the Summit X, but just didn't. It sounded like two different makes of speaker. Would like to hear the Electromotion, to see if what the magazines say is true.

 

Personally I feel that there is a much bigger disconnection between price and performance in speakers than in anything else. And M-L, with the Electromotion, may just have unintentionally proved it. And of course the owners of the Summit don't want it to be true.

 

[sleepysurf]

If you felt the Summit X bass and stat panels were not well integrated, then something was wrong with that room and/or setup. It, admittedly, takes a fair bit of work to properly "dial in" ML's to properly interact with the room, and then fine-tune the bass with the 25 and 50 Hz gain controls. However, when done right, using capable upstream gear, the effect is stunning. I have ML Summits, in a less-than-ideal family room setup, and they sound excellent. A fellow audiophile friend (also on this board) has the Summit X in a smaller, but dedicated listening room. His setup sounds out-of-this-world, with bass/panel integration that is seamless. He is a member of this board, so perhaps will chime in as well.

 

I've never heard the new Electromotion series, but can't imagine it's better than the Summit X, given it's lower price point and smaller woofer(s).

 

As for Soundlabs, they can likewise sound spectacular if you have the right room, but in a bad (reflective) room they can sound horrid. The Sanders stats are also superb, and a fantastic value IMHO, but, like all stats, need very careful room placement as well. They compare very favorably to the hybrid ML's, except (IMHO) in the WAF category.

 

[MarkS]

ML is HEAVILY dependent on upstream equipment (especially amp) and placement. I do like the Summit X and have had various ML's for 20 years (but I m considering switching to Wilson - either Sasha or Maxx 3).

 

When an ML speaker sounds right, it grabs you, and you usually will become a fan for life.

 

I could never get a good demo for a Soundlab speaker and they are very big.

 

[Mark Powell]

I went to the dealers intending to purchase the Summit X. I had never heard any Martin Logans but had read a whole lot of good reports, but they sometimes qualified them with remarks about panel/woofer integration. Maybe I was therefore concentrating on it. The dealer has sold both M L and Tannoy for many years so presumably knows how to set them up, and the rest of the equipment was identical in both cases.

 

He had no Electromotions as they are very new here in the UK. But the three magazines, thus only the opinion of three people, all said the Electromotion had much better integration than the others.

 

Re price. It is my finding over many years, that once you move out of the 'budget' market, with loudspeakers in particular, price and performance are often not related. With 'regular' speakers most of the high price is the fancy box.

 

As I did not like the Summits my choice of the 'dual concentric' Tannoys was almost automatic, as I have used smaller ones happily for many years.

 

Shame, I have always fancied electrostatics, and the Summits look so good. Was never impressed by the Quads and they are extremely room sensitive. Lovely for 'small' classical music and stunningly realistic for speech, but that's all. Now what I have is a bigger version of what I had before, at a slightly higher price than the Summit X.

 

[elcorso]

Sometimes dealers are tricky people, they will setup better, what they want to sell you.

 

The ML dealer in this side in the word is a close friend, and let me to try his speakers at my home.

 

It's not a good way to listen to some speakers if they are another in the same room, mainly with cone speakers, since they resonate and 'sing' with the music from the speaker that are playing, confusing and degrading the SQ.

 

ML and all electrostatics sound their best with tubed amps.

 

The amp. inside the Summit's cone speakers are ICE Power, fast and powerful enough for deep bass. Being switching amps. you must isolate their AC power feeding from the mains. Also this speakers should seat in his owns spikes and on a solid floor, if you don't have this kind of floor you need to build some kind of base, not too difficult, not expensive neither.

 

All Ml, and a lot of speakers, should be at least 3' from the Front wall (behind the speakers). As a rule of thumb: Side walls: hard (like concrete). Front wall behind the speakers: medium soft (could be concrete with a soft large hanging in the center). Rear wall: soft, or not wall at all, or at long distance from your listening chair. This is a recommendation I try to follow all the time from a friend specialized on this matters.

 

Mark, if you own those lovely VTL amps don't doubt and get the CLX. As I said I drive mine with a VTL ST-150 with not problems at all. Before the CLX I owned the Summits.

 

Roch

 

[MarkS]

Often considered CLX's but space is an issue.

 

Do you have subs?

 

[elcorso]

Yes I have the Descent i (2) with the matching CLX crossover. They match each other very well. But sometimes I turn off the subs (I use it mainly on large orchestra music).

 

I have the CLXs close to the side walls, about 2', with no issues. And the subs in the corners behind the CLX.

 

I found the CLX are easy to setup that my previous Summits. Maybe since their different ESL panel radiation pattern?.

 

Roch

 

[Mark Powell]

We had that in the UK during the 1970's when the notorious 'Linn/Naim alliance' was trying to bulldoze all other UK manufactures into extinction. Led mainly by Ivor Tiefenbrun of Linn, who said we should even remove our digital alarm watches because the possible resonance of the alarm membrane would damage the sound. Backed by evey UK magazine (no internet then) who all fell for the 'alliance'. The non-believers (a surprisingly small number, but of course including me) said "If your equipment is affected by such things it must be rubbish and we will buy something else".

 

The dealer where I auditioned the Summits even boasted of his "Five single speaker demonstration rooms".

 

Laughed at by everyone else, including the US.

 

As I previously said, nothing other than the speakers changed during the demo. Purely by coincidence he used the same tube amp (a McIntosh) that I have, though I am not especially a tube amp fan, I bought it because it sounded ok. He has been in business in the same location for more than fifty years (now run by his son) and I trust them.

 

Finally (sorry, I don't mean to do this) You said it has a digital amp for the woofers. So we have, in effect, a tube amp driving the panels and a solid state digital amp driving the low end. Can't sound anything else but weird! Maybe why the Electromotions are reported as sounding better. At least they are all being driven by the same thing.

 

[elcorso]

When you have cone speakers in the same room, and they are not connected to an amp, or shorted in his inputs, the music/sound waves hitting the cones (from another speaker playing) will generate from his magnet coils EMI & RFI, and will 'sing'. This is not comparable to the 1970's "digital alarm watches" myth, but an scientific test you can do with inexpensive test equipment, and with your own ears.

 

I don't know nothing about Tannoys, it should be a great speakers since their price. But I'm not, and never will on cone speakers. I don't like to make comparisons between speakers. The way I choose speakers is by comparing them to real unamplified music.

 

I have no doubt about your dealer honesty, I stated "sometimes audio dealers..." I don't know him, but others.

 

It doesn't exist such as an digital amplifier, this is argot, since they are switching amplifiers. They run very cold and with very low energy consumption, then beloved for this, on expensive energy countries. There are some of them very good from Audio Research, Bel Canto and others, but I will not use them on electrostatic speakers, since ELS are so revealing, that you will notice it.

 

You, everybody on the UK and in the US can laugh what you want, but I not a bullsh*iter, just a music lover, who defend what likes me, with no commercial connection with Martin Logan. If you don't like the Summits is your opinion, and I respect this. If your not a tube fan, but you like your McIntosh tubed amp, good for you.

 

I'm out of this thread because it's a no sense to discuss personal tastes.

 

Happy listening!

 

Roch

 

[Mark Powell]

You are almost certainly correct. I have a tendency to drift off into audio history. But we got a lot of interest out of the Linn/Naim alliance. They really became a UK 'ultimate' to which most people aspired. I did not buy in because I couldn't afford it. As new companies they were trying to make their mark, which they most certainly did.

 

[ESL]

I would love to hear big ML speakers but, living in Asia, it is almost impossible to find a dealer willing to offer to try, leave alone stock their line. I learned that ML panel sensitivity is affected by humidity and the panel/woofer balance is affected so few dealers are willing to commit.

 

I have built numerous ESL panels, with & without hybrid dynamic drivers for bass. Almost all with the same problem, large swings depending on whether the air con is running or not. I can well understand why ML's (and other ESL's) are thin on the ground here. Arcing is another problem I had with even obsessively well coated stators on my projects in high humidity.

 

I can second the recommendation above (catastofe) for the Sanders 10c. The guy was willing to send a pair of speakers halfway round the world, at his cost, for a 30 day trial. They are still here, as is his Magtech amp which drives them better than big tube amps I tried. They are mercilessly directional but when set up per Jim Smith, they are as close to perfection as I will ever need. They have never arced and they sound the same, every day. I have given up ever building anything that approaches them at any price.

Roch is absolutely right about the room positioning. At least 1m behind, and to the side plus a lot of space behind. Big 'stats simply don't work in small rooms IMO.

 

Martin

 

 

 

 

[elcorso]

Martin, I live in the middle of the Rainforest. I never had being on Asia, but we are both very close to the Equator Meridian. Over here we have a rainy season (9 months per year, from March to November), and a dry season (3 months per year, from December to February), but sometimes it rains in the dry season. And when it rains, it rains a LOT. Until today we have a week with not rain and heavy winds, but the humidity meter in front of me is showing 85%. On a rainy day this meter is 95% all the time, then our lungs suffer a lot, but the Logans continuos singing.

 

I have a lot of friends on Logans, and as me, they don't any have arcing because of humidity. Sometimes I had arcing thanks to a bug (high humidity= a lot of bugs), but after this, I remove the bug with some vacuum. I also vacuum the ELS panels from time to time for dust in the dry season.

 

The other day I wasn't at home and some 'genius' were sanding, all day long, a close wood door after painting. When I got home my beloved CLX (and ALL the gear) was covered by a lot of fine white dust, I didn't sleep that night, vacuum everything and crossing my fingers, but the SQ didn't suffer anything. I think they bettered the very thin membrane, since it support heavy vacuum (and is stated in the user manual). I joke about, that my country is the "test department" for ELS speakers under high humidity conditions. I have AC here, but I turn it on only wen the temperature is intolerable, and for a short time. We also found, over here, that ML ELS likes some humidity, and I don't feel any dramatic SQ change from 65 to 95% humidity, but yes under 64, but for worst.

 

There is no Sanders dealers over here, and I can't get it even if the shipping (both ways) on the trial offer, since we pay a lot of not refundable import taxes, but this is a very good offer from an honest manufacturer and should be great speakers.

 

Roch

 

[bzr]

Roch, his amps are absolutely incredible for the price & will drive your speakers with ease, probably dehumidify your house too with the force.