Audio Research versus Conrad Johnson

[papageno]

Am thinking of getting a tube preamp (either Conrad Johnson or Audio Research); budget not to exceed $4K. But do not have an Conrad Johnson dealers in my area. Has anyone compared both these pre amps. Thoughts or other suggestions?

 

[Edrogers911]

Hi, I've had both through the years, and like them both very much. You will probably be happy with either. But at your price point, you will have a limited choice for new products. I would personally be looking at the used market, you can go pretty far on your budget.

The real question is what is your associated equipment? Are you going to need balanced connections? What output impedance will mate well with your amplifier? And how tubelike do you wish it to be? I, myself, absolutely love what tubes bring to music. But if they aren't going to mate well with your rig, it can be very frustrating.

 

[barrows]

these major brands at many shows over the years. I would suggest that Audio Research gear tends to be the more neutral of the two, with the CJ stuff generally tending to be a little more of the traditional "tube sound", a little (but just a little) warmer, perhaps a tad slower, with the rich full midrange than many associate with tubes.

My preference is generally for AR if I was going with tubes, but depending on system context, that could change.

As I recall, CJ does not do balanced, and AR is all about balanced, I am a balanced kind of guy myself... Wish I could afford an AR Ref 150 amp for my system...

Used is a good way to go with either of these brands, they build quality products, and will always support their previous models. You can buy used with confidence, but I would consider that you should budget for buying new tubes at the time, as it is impossible to know what the used tubes may have been through...

 

[esldude]

I pretty much concur with everything Barrows has said above. I have owned some of the past CJ stuff and have friends that have owned the AR. Second hand is ideal on these as they are both so well made, and as stated supported.

 

I would also add that CJ tends to have simpler circuitry than AR. Which if repairs are ever needed might be a slight nod in their direction.

 

Just think of their common face plate hues as hints to the sound.

 

A slightly golden hued CJ, a bit rounder, slower, fuller and richer. Though just a bit and not at all slow, ponderous or lacking resolution.

 

A slightly silvery hued AR, light, detailed, faster sound from AR. Though just a bit and not etched, lightweight or hyper-detailed.

 

If your system needs balanced AR is the only choice. Also, whether used or new, the tubes make a considerable difference in overall sound quality. It doesn't totally remake the basic sound, but it will enhance it considerably in all the little ways sound quality can be extended if you get better tubes.

 

It comes down to balance in the rest of your system, and personal preference. I use electrostats and prefer CJ.

 

[papageno]

Thanks guys for all the input, Currently use a Rotel solid state amp (250W/channel at 8ohms) driving electrostats (I don't need balanced connections).

 

Was thinking of the ARC LS 17 pre amp or the Conrad Johnson ET3 series, that fit in my budget but I haven't probed into the used market yet.

 

[Audioseduction]

I would check out audiogon.com for pre-owned equipment. I myself had very good experience purchasing equipment thru audiogon.

 

[papageno]

I know this can get tricky if using different brands but any general guides on matching the impedances of the tube preamp and SS amp

 

[4est]

The general rule of thumb is(was?) that the amp's input impedance should be 10x the pre's output impedance.

 

[esldude]

4est has it right. Rule of thumb is input impedance of amp is 10x output impedance of pre.

 

Most CJ pre-amps though not super low are fairly low. 300 ohms or so working from memory. Not sure what Rotel you are using or what input impedance it has. Also not sure what the more recent AR pre-amps have for output impedance. If Stereophile has reviewed the models you are interested in they will have tested the output impedance. They also usually test pre-amps into several loads including 600 ohms to give you an idea of how the pre-amp handles it.

 

[fishnchips]

As previous posters said, both brands are great choices. It's probably no coincidence that they have both gravitated towards using the same tubes (6N30's).

 

[papageno]

Checked specs of ARC and CJ pre amps. ARC outputs (unbalanced) have 300ohms impedance and CJ just states impedance 100 ohms (hopefully they refer to output impedance). ARC states that minimal load should be 20,000ohms (which is greater than than the 10:1 ratio referred earlier). CJ does not mention a minimal load. My Rotel has input impedance of 8000ohms (i don't know whether ARC is a safe bet considering these specs. (Don't have the budget to change amps also). Thoughts?? Appreciate everybody's input

 

[elcorso]

Papageno, if your are on ESL speakers may I suggest tubes amp.?

 

I'm on ESL (Martin Logan CLX) and on a tube amp. the AR Reference 110 HD driving it, this amp. drive this large speakers with easy under the 8 ohms tab.

8 tube matched power tubes could cost you about $400 (6550 Winged C, not the new factory sh*t KT-120). My pre is SS (Parasound JC2, with some caps. mods.) and I have no problem matching it to the amp.

 

Sometimes it is hard to get those beauty pre-owned, but I got the Parasound this way.

 

BTW, Barrows, sometimes I feel I need tube gear playing digital music, I was precisely thinking on Conrad Johnson, but no budget for this year.

 

Roch

 

[barrows]

I build my own DACs, so with a little care I can avoid harsh digital sounds-no need for tubes to smooth things out. But that does not mean I would not like to have a tube amplifier option! Problem is I prefer speakers which, while not tremendously difficult to drive, do require some power and current.

The Audio Research Ref 150 would do the job nicely as an alternative to my Pass (which I would not sell, it is a very good amp). But until I have steady employment again, and take care of some of my debts, I cannot even consider new gear purchases, and a Ref 150 woudl be a considerable expense for frugal person such as myself.

 

[esldude]

Modern tube pre's don't alter the sound much. ESLs and tube amps are typically a great match.you will get more of the good 'tube' sound that way. As well as AR and CJ the mid size and large power amps from VTL are very good. For your 4k budget you can certainly get a suitable tube amp. 2nd hand you would have many choices. Hold back some money to buy new power tubes.

 

[realhifi]

There are lot's of tube preamp options in the price range you are considering. That said, the CJs are really wonderful and the ARC's are really nice also. Depending on what speakers you have (I didn't notice the brand), you could easily get a set of tube pre and power amp in the 45-50 watt area that would drive a pair of electrostatics extremely well.

 

I have driven the newer Quad 2805's with their matching 15 watt mono blocks and their little $1000 tube preamp and had NO issues getting plenty of volume. Try Hendrix "Electric Ladyland" on a setup like this and prepare to be blown away.

 

PS. Forced to choose I'd get a CJ every time.

 

[papageno]

David, I have ML vantages. The specs mention a recommended amplifier power from 20-500W/channel. The speakers are quite sensitive though with 92Db/2.83v/meter. I was always under the impression that one should get high powered amplifiers to drive the ESL. But as compared to the quads, these are hybrid, I don't whether that makes a difference.

 

[elcorso]

papageno don't worry about the recommended power amp, please remember that the Vantages has his own power amp for the subwoofers, then with 50 watts/channel you have enough power, specially with a tube amp. My AR is rated at 100 watts/channel and I guess I never reached that level, and sometimes I listen to music at neighbors complain level!

 

Barrows, I don't have any harsh from digital, and right now I'm very far away from that, since I had being replacing all my SPSU to LPSU, even on the external HD where the music storage is (it was firewire self-powered before).

 

My torture test on digital music playback is a solo violin, and I'm very happy with the resulting SQ now. It's a long time I don't listen to a CJ product, I owned about 12 years ago the MV60, and I was fascinated for his midrange (maybe euphonic?) but I had to sell it for his lack of power. I really don't know the new units, and don't have the chance to try one.

 

Roch

 

[barrows]

Agreed, in all cases. And solo violin is a great test for digital, also Miles' muted horn when he plays too loud and too close to the mic-it should distort, but it should not quite tear one's ears out!

I like to listen to bells and chimes in an orchestra piece as well, if a digital front end can resolve them sweetly, while still portraying the both the clean attack and the entire decay, the digital is doing something very right.