Classical music, 2-channel, and sub-woofers?

[mayhem13]

Do stereo subs have to be symmetrically arranged with respect to the speakers (i.e., both six ft away)?

 

That would depend on the passband of the subwoofers. If crossed 80hz or below, no. The wavelengths of this frequency range is too long to localize in respect to the rest of the spectrum. Crossing higher can get tricky depending on the room and how much decay the room exhibits. Subwoofers do offer the flexibility in placement over the limited options with the mains, but subs themselves have quite a footprint that often clashes with other things like neccessary furnishings and spouses! On the DIY front, many overcome this by building their own subwoofers as furniture....end tables, ottomans, or infinite baffle systems. Not an option for many, but if you have some basic woodworking tools, time, and a desire to create, DIY subwoofers are very rewarding on all fronts, especially the knowledge gained during the build and the satisfaction when complete.

[mayhem13]

If I heard it sounding the way you describe, I suppose I might change my opinion on their looks. Shows are strange. They show that there are many factors to getting good sound. I heard the smaller version of this and it didn't sound good at all. They were in a huge room, however.

 

Go listen to a pair of Sonus Faber Cremona (it's what I have). No sub required and they will factually, scientifically, undoubtedly, be better than the B&W. Maybe around $4K used. I think the original are better than the new M version. I'll quit with the suggestions. I'm being rude. I'm sure you weren't planning on a speaker upgrade.

 

Interesting example......the Cremona. Yes, the 10" woofer used in that system digs deep in a relatively small enclosure. But Alas, the tradeoff......a 2nd order cross to a 4" midrange forcing that wonderfully little driver deeper than it's comfortable to go.....a tradeoff the designer was willing to accept. Since the Cremona is balanced at about 10% driver and crossover component cost to 90% enclosure cost and labor, one could easily see why the tradeoff was made. They are nice to look at though!

[chg]

Shame there's so many negative opinions on the use of subs in a two channel system as these experiences are most likely from either improper setup or a poor understanding of one's room.

 

You covered, pretty well, the reasons why there are "so many negative opinions on the use of subs in a two channel system". Subs can be very difficult to set up properly and to integrate properly.

 

You state:

 

"most likely from either improper setup or a poor understanding of one's room."

 

"a multi sub system and proper integration can be costly."

 

"Combine the cost of high current amplification, robust large surface area transducers and well damped low resonant enclosures and a single subwoofer can cost more than the typical high end 2way speaker."

 

"but subs themselves have quite a footprint that often clashes with other things like neccessary furnishings and spouses!"

 

And, as mentioned by Jud, by the time you get done fiddling around with it/them it's just not worth it. You seem to have a lot of knowledge about subs, so it's likely easier for you to get it done properly vs. most of us. Yes, when done properly, I don't doubt that they can be great. In fact, if I could afford it, I've been dreaming of a Focal Diablo Utopia with Wilson Benesch Torus sub set-up for quite a while.

[chg]

Interesting example......the Cremona. Yes, the 10" woofer used in that system digs deep...

 

You must be looking at a different speaker. The Cremona has two 7" and one 6". No speaker in the Cremona line uses a 4" midrange that I'm aware of.

[mayhem13]

You must be looking at a different speaker. The Cremona has two 7" and one 6". No speaker in the Cremona line uses a 4" midrange that I'm aware of.

 

Cremona is a collection. The premier model is the Elipsa. The midrange driver is listed at 150mm chassis. Effective surface area or Sd ( a T/S parameter) is equal to a 4" cone so, yes, there's a 4" midrange give or take a few mms. Your model crosses slightly higher to the midrange as the 7" woofers can play much higher than the larger 10"......but even two can't dig as deep and if you consider two 7" woofers sufficient for low freq extension, that's ok....to each their own. Stating emphatically that such a system negates the need for a sub?......that's a whole different thing. My current mains use SEAS top of the line 7" woofers and in no way are these adequate. They quickly unload below tune (40hz) when not high passed to a sub and become completely non linear as the voice coil extends outside of the magnetic gap. Your Cremona M's will do the same of not worse as the driver used has nearly 15% less linear excursion (Xmax) than the SEAS units I use.

 

That being said, any of the Sonus systems are excellent speakers. Off axis response due to the XT series ring radiator tweeters is as good as it gets. Cabinet construction is first rate. Crossovers use top shelf caps and inductors with excellent phase integration through thoughtful use of 2nd order slopes.....acoustic centers properly aligned via the tilt back baffle......but bass monsters.......em..........not so much.

[mayhem13]

You covered, pretty well, the reasons why there are "so many negative opinions on the use of subs in a two channel system". Subs can be very difficult to set up properly and to integrate properly.

 

You state:

 

"most likely from either improper setup or a poor understanding of one's room."

 

"a multi sub system and proper integration can be costly."

 

"Combine the cost of high current amplification, robust large surface area transducers and well damped low resonant enclosures and a single subwoofer can cost more than the typical high end 2way speaker."

 

"but subs themselves have quite a footprint that often clashes with other things like neccessary furnishings and spouses!"

 

And, as mentioned by Jud, by the time you get done fiddling around with it/them it's just not worth it. You seem to have a lot of knowledge about subs, so it's likely easier for you to get it done properly vs. most of us. Yes, when done properly, I don't doubt that they can be great. In fact, if I could afford it, I've been dreaming of a Focal Diablo Utopia with Wilson Benesch Torus sub set-up for quite a while.

 

There's no fiddling required.....it's proper understanding of LF radiation patters and room response. 'fiddling' is what you do when you don't know what to do.....which often has poor results.

 

And a properly integrated multi sub system is without a doubt worth the cost and effort.

[chg]

Cremona is a collection. The premier model is the Elipsa. The midrange driver is listed at 150mm chassis. Effective surface area or Sd ( a T/S parameter) is equal to a 4" cone so, yes, there's a 4" midrange give or take a few mms.

 

I appreciate your hyper-detailed approach, but for us simpletons, I think most are O.K. with calling it a 6" driver (as stated in the specs on the Sumiko website). And the Cremona model simply as the Cremona as opposed to the others in the line i.e., Cremona Auditor, Cremona Auditor Elipsa, Cremona Center, Cremona Subwoofer,and Cremona Elipsa. Here in the U.S., according to Sumiko (U.S. distributor), they refer to it as the Classic collection and I've never experienced any confusion in the past when simply referring to my model as the Cremona. But, I can understand the miscommunication. I don't mean to sound pompous. Don't take it that way.

 

but even two can't dig as deep and if you consider two 7" woofers sufficient for low freq extension, that's ok....to each their own.

 

That is one picky Audiophile who finds two 7" woofers insufficient, especially when budget constraints are involved, but, as you say, to each their own.

 

There's no fiddling required.....it's proper understanding of LF radiation patters and room response. 'fiddling' is what you do when you don't know what to do.....which often has poor results.

 

That's the problem. Most of us don't know. Hence, the fiddling. Understanding LF radiation and room response, etc. is not something you just pick up in one afternoon.

 

I suppose I can change my opinion: if you are a low frequency expert a sub is a great idea, if not, it can be a challenge to get things just right.

[mayhem13]

Not pompous at all.....well written.

 

The point I make ( and I am NOT an audiophile ) is that a little understanding goes a LONG way in this hobby. You don't need to drop megabucks to get things sounding really good and some $$$ are much better spent in some areas instead of others. I'm a firm believer in not sweating the small signal stuff when there's huge gains to be had elsewhere. Bass reproduction in the current state of tech must abide by the laws of physics where moving air is the name of the game. You do this with either large surface area drivers or drivers that have long linear excursion.....no way around this and each approach like everything has a tradeoff. Small midwoofers (7" ain't a woofer in my book!) forced to 40-50hz to get extension isn't a compromise I'd ever consider......There's simply too much odd order HD below 100hz from these drivers to be considered true high fidelity. Another problem that's almost always overlooked is what happens when there is signal below the tuning frequency of these systems. Below tune, or Fb there's no control of the bass drivers whatsoever so you're left with a wildly flopping cone, out of the magnetic gap at reference playback levels resulting in a muddy, bloated bottom end. It's the price to pay for ported systems.

 

Wanna know what I constitute true high fidelity that every hobbyist should strive for FIRST and FOREMOST?........a system that can do 20hz to 20khz within 3db across the spectrum and allow for 100db dynamic peaks at the listening position with all distortion products at least 30db below the fundamental. This IMO is the core of HiFi.....and it doesn't need to cost a luxury sedan to get it.

[coot]

Sad truth is, there are VERY few honest 20-20k "full range" speakers out there under $20k. Even fewer (none?) that will do the 16hz necessary to reproduce a 32' organ pipe. Not talking separate subs here, but a single all-in one pair of full-rangers.

[chg]

I agree with all. But...

 

Wanna know what I constitute true high fidelity that every hobbyist should strive for FIRST and FOREMOST?........a system that can do 20hz to 20khz within 3db across the spectrum and allow for 100db dynamic peaks at the listening position with all distortion products at least 30db below the fundamental.

 

This can be a challenge for your average Joe: knowledge, room issues, decor, WAF, budget constraints, etc. I just skip it and usually go with dual 6", or 7", even a single 8", hope there's not too much boom and bloat and some acceptable extension to hear most of the low end, and I'm good. Subs I've heard have almost always sounded slow, bloated, boomy, and any other negative adjective associated with subs. How much of that experience was the just room, or the subs themselves, I don't know. In my youth, I did have two high quality (sealed enclosure) subs in my car and it was excellent. Seems easier to integrate well in a car.

[chg]

mayhem13- I just realized, the discussion involves subs, so I see now how it was quite reasonable that you assumed I was referring to the Cremona Elipsa vs. the Cremona. My mistake. I wish that were the case; I'd rather have the Elipsa.

[prufrock]

I didn't find it that much trouble to position the subs. From memory a couple of days mucking around. I did it by ear. Moved them around on a trolley till I found the spots I liked.

Mayhem

Enjoy reading your comments on speakers as you are a wealth of knowledge on the subject. Would be interested to hear your opinion on the 2Wq's. I run mine on the Q "1" setting and have them in the corners. Am still using the variable WX-2 crossovers. Was supposed to get order the (fixed) X-2 ones but have been in a state of flux with amps so have put it off. (I run the Model 1's on the "0" setting for the tweeters.)

Also be interested to hear your opinion on the likely difference in sound between using the 2Wq's with the 1C's (what I have got) and with 2Ce's.

[prufrock]

chg

A friend of mine just recently picked up a pair of Stradivari's second hand for $17,000 in mint condition. Beautiful sound.

[mayhem13]

I didn't find it that much trouble to position the subs. From memory a couple of days mucking around. I did it by ear. Moved them around on a trolley till I found the spots I liked.

Mayhem

Enjoy reading your comments on speakers as you are a wealth of knowledge on the subject. Would be interested to hear your opinion on the 2Wq's. I run mine on the Q "1" setting and have them in the corners. Am still using the variable WX-2 crossovers. Was supposed to get order the (fixed) X-2 ones but have been in a state of flux with amps so have put it off. (I run the Model 1's on the "0" setting for the tweeters.)

Also be interested to hear your opinion on the likely difference in sound between using the 2Wq's with the 1C's (what I have got) and with 2Ce's.

 

Vamdersteen made subwoofer integration somewhat 'easy' by using 1st order slopes for both the high pass to the mains and low pass to the sub. Again a compromise that he addresses by using smaller drivers in the sub that can play higher in the passband before their first cone breakup. The compromise being true low frequency extension...

8" drivers just run outta gas sooner than their 12 and 15 inch cousins. The whole slot loaded thing makes absolutely no sense to me from a design standpoint but the alignment style still appears from time to time Nelson Pass has recently released a slot loaded OB subwoofer system to the DIY community for evaluation and concept proofing. Personally I've never been able to substantiate it's benefits but unintended I suppose, it does cut down on mechanical suspension noises from the drivers...Lol.

 

They're a nice sub that's fairly easy to integrate...as long as you use them with Vandy mains. Ported system mains are the most difficult due to the ports phase shift, while passive radiators are a bit more benign in this regard. Sealed systems integrate very well but we all know the drawbacks here.

 

Adjustable Q or to generalize will employ a notch filter of sorts. Didn't look up how Vandy does it exactly but if you can measure your response peak, the Q filter can be matched closely to it's center frequency and knock it down a few db.....you're on your own with the nulls though. Lol.

[chg]

chg

A friend of mine just recently picked up a pair of Stradivari's second hand for $17,000 in mint condition. Beautiful sound.

 

A lucky man. It would be nice to have a reference speaker like that where you know your upgrading days are over. The foundation is set and now he just gets to have fun testing components. A few years back, I read the head of Naim said that the Stradivari (along with reference Naim gear, of course) was the best he's ever heard.

[chg]

Your Cremona M's

 

mayhem13- Just a correction: not that anyone's interested, but I have the original Cremona not the new M version. When the new model (M version) came out word was spreading quickly that the original was better i.e. sweeter, warmer, a little less hi-fi (subjectively, of course); and the new model was a bit more expensive. So I searched for, and found, the last remaining new pair in the U.S.

 

The original driver sizes are totally different than the M version. You would think that I would know my own driver sizes by now. Oops! In my defense, it was Monday, it was getting late, and I was getting very tired.

 

BTW- any opinion/experience with the WB Torus? An expensive piece of audio jewelry, or is their anything to the infrasonic generator marketing description?

[crisnee]

There's another use for subs (if we're going by the new definition for subs which is basically bass speakers with cross overs of a sort), a fairly inexpensive use; augmenting limited bass monitors with decent bass response, decent being in the 32-40 hz range.

 

One might do this if one really loves one's monitors--they do have their advantages. In this instance one doesn't need behemoth subs, and I, in the past, had no trouble integrating two with my excellent monitors. I did use an out board eq. for the subs and placed them where they sounded best (with the help of a lot of measurement and testing) which made a huge difference for my system.

 

When I say a huge difference, I am not exaggerating. Before adding the subs I'd had one big sub with which I was never really satisfied (possibly because of my lack of knowledge re placement/measurement). The sound was good at times, not so great at others, and room resonances were a problem. Then I ran the system without the sub, but bass response was only solid down to about 60 hz. So I got the two small subs and finally did the requisite research on integrating them properly and wow, big difference. Super smooth dynamic sound from about 32 hz with exceptional imaging and spacing for not much added expense.

 

-Chris

[mayhem13]

 

BTW- any opinion/experience with the WB Torus? An expensive piece of audio jewelry, or is their anything to the infrasonic generator marketing description?

 

No experience whatsoever.....looks interesting enough but EXTREMELY cost prohibitive

 

Max SPL 100db at 1 meter?..........I think I'd pass.

[mayhem13]

There's another use for subs (if we're going by the new definition for subs which is basically bass speakers with cross overs of a sort), a fairly inexpensive use; augmenting limited bass monitors with decent bass response, decent being in the 32-40 hz range.

 

One might do this if one really loves one's monitors--they do have their advantages. In this instance one doesn't need behemoth subs, and I, in the past, had no trouble integrating two with my excellent monitors. I did use an out board eq. for the subs and placed them where they sounded best (with the help of a lot of measurement and testing) which made a huge difference for my system.

 

When I say a huge difference, I am not exaggerating. Before adding the subs I'd had one big sub with which I was never really satisfied (possibly because of my lack of knowledge re placement/measurement). The sound was good at times, not so great at others, and room resonances were a problem. Then I ran the system without the sub, but bass response was only solid down to about 60 hz. So I got the two small subs and finally did the requisite research on integrating them properly and wow, big difference. Super smooth dynamic sound from about 32 hz with exceptional imaging and spacing for not much added expense.

 

-Chris

 

Good post Chris....which should be an inspiration to others that with a little eQ and research, even two relatively inexpensive subwoofer can have huge impact.

 

One of my first DIY sub projects was replacing my sand filled stands for my 2ways with narrow subs. Limited to a 10" wide footprint, I used the depth to my advantage at 18", preserving the monitors footprint of 24" from the rear and side walls. Dual 10" woofers were used side firing and opposed and close coupled, making the enclosure near completely inert with the opposing forces of the drivers countering each other. The whole project cost me less than $1k including stereo remote amplification and was capable of near 120db in room with room gain extending the response into the high teens. Sadly, my little 2ways couldn't keep up and the system has since evolved.

[Jud]

That would depend on the passband of the subwoofers. If crossed 80hz or below, no. The wavelengths of this frequency range is too long to localize in respect to the rest of the spectrum. Crossing higher can get tricky depending on the room and how much decay the room exhibits. Subwoofers do offer the flexibility in placement over the limited options with the mains, but subs themselves have quite a footprint that often clashes with other things like neccessary furnishings and spouses!

 

A couple of localization cues are missing at lower frequencies: There is none of the "beaming" that occurs at higher frequencies, and the waves are too large for your head to effectively "shadow" one ear or the other, as happens with higher frequencies/shorter wavelengths.

 

But at least one localization cue remains: timing. If you heard a contrabassoon, electric bass, bass drum, the lowest registers of a pipe organ, etc., in live performance, the instrument wouldn't hop closer to you or further away from you as it played higher or lower notes. Or in the case of chords, the instrument wouldn't be in two places at once. But that's what must happen in a system using subwoofers at different distances than full range speakers, causing low notes to arrive with different timing than higher notes from the same instrument. The ear-brain hears this and yells "Not real!"

 

OK, so you co-locate. Problem solved, right? Well, no. Co-location potentially gives rise to two additional problems:

 

- Many sub manufacturers, e.g. Vandersteen, recommend corner placement. However, the recommendation for full range speakers is to have them away from walls. Co-location means finding a place where they're both happy and sounding their best. (Admittedly this is true to some extent of low-range vs. mid- and high-range drivers in a single cabinet, though speaker manufacturers can ameliorate the problem at least somewhat at the design stage.)

 

- Isolation from extraneous vibration is extremely important for speakers, particularly for high-frequency drivers where even small extraneous vibrations may be an appreciable percentage of the driver excursion when playing music. Full-range speaker and stand manufacturers professionally design and manufacture enclosures and stands specifically for this purpose. It is frankly difficult for the audiophile at home to do as good a job.

 

Subs have advantages that have been pointed out in this thread, but the points above are concerns I have about them as part of an audio system.

 

prufrock: 25 years ago I listened to both the Vandersteen 1 and 2 series, and of course I liked the 2 better. I never listened to the 1 with a sub. I've heard multi-speaker systems for home theater, but seldom for music only. Personally I've chosen to keep my own system stereo. All this is by way of saying I've got no basis to comment on whether your current system would sound better with the incorporation of subs or Vandersteen 2ces.

[mayhem13]

You're right, it wouldn't change in perceived distance, but you would no longer be able to locate the source lower in frequency either. Below 100hz, unless your outdoors you're hearing the room, not the low frequency driver's direct radiation....hence rear firing passive radiators and ports. Although timing concerns you, there's zero concern in a three dimensional space.

 

Co-location is required if the subwoofer will be playing content above 80hz, and still only a concern if the slope is 1st order....as Vandy does with their supplied crossover. As mentioned earlier, a tradeoff accepted for easier phase integration. The close proximity positioning becomes even less when stereo subs or more are used.

 

Corner placement is suggested by some sub manufacturers for one purpose....boundary gain. If you want extreme peaks and nulls in the LF response, by all means corner load away.

 

As to extraneous vibrations, high motor strength in today's drivers require nothing more than a solid baffle surface. I'm not sure what your point was here. Far more harmful, and given your position would be the typical audiophile two way where the same mid woofer is asked to play 2khz content with accuracy and detail while the cone is traveling 5+ mm point to point with low frequency content. Some of the most highly regarded speaker systems are simple 2way monitors yet your position suggests they are in fact flawed? Strange point,,as a sub is intended to relieve those mid woofers of low frequency duty, allowing them to reproduce all that mid and lower treble content with detail.

 

I tHink you would have to install a multi sub system within your own to soothe your concerns. A pair of JL F112's should do the trick! Hearing is believing.....as you subjectivists are always insisting.

[Jud]

You're right, it wouldn't change in perceived distance, but you would no longer be able to locate the source lower in frequency either. Below 100hz, unless your outdoors you're hearing the room, not the low frequency driver's direct radiation....hence rear firing passive radiators and ports. Although timing concerns you, there's zero concern in a three dimensional space.

 

Lateral localization is affected, not time differential from distance. The brain's suppression of reflected sound vs. direct in order to properly sort timing/distance cues is still operating.

 

Corner placement is suggested by some sub manufacturers for one purpose....boundary gain. If you want extreme peaks and nulls in the LF response, by all means corner load away.

 

What you're saying is absolutely correct; just pointing out manufacturers' suggestions. Some subs are apparently designed for this type of placement(?).

 

As to extraneous vibrations, high motor strength in today's drivers require nothing more than a solid baffle surface. I'm not sure what your point was here. Far more harmful, and given your position would be the typical audiophile two way where the same mid woofer is asked to play 2khz content with accuracy and detail while the cone is traveling 5+ mm point to point with low frequency content. Some of the most highly regarded speaker systems are simple 2way monitors yet your position suggests they are in fact flawed? Strange point,,as a sub is intended to relieve those mid woofers of low frequency duty, allowing them to reproduce all that mid and lower treble content with detail.

 

I tHink you would have to install a multi sub system within your own to soothe your concerns. A pair of JL F112's should do the trick! Hearing is believing.....as you subjectivists are always insisting.

 

Down to 29Hz +/- 3db with my current speakers is OK with me (and my budget, into which the F112s most definitely do not fit). The F112s would get 9Hz lower, still not enough to accurately reproduce the subsonics from the cannons in the Telarc 1812 Overture, or various audiophile recordings of pipe organ, at a cost of very roughly $2000-$3000. Don't think that's a high-value proposition for me. For folks with other speakers than mine, the value proposition could well be different.

[chg]

Great information from mayhem13 and Jud, both obviously very knowledgeable on the subject, but geez, I have to learn/understand all this stuff just to incorporate a sub properly. I guess it's not for me. I was considering small monitors and a sub, for a friend who I'm helping out in the future, but not sure I want to set myself up for potential failure, and worse, witness her disappointment.

[crisnee]

Great information from mayhem13 and Jud, both obviously very knowledgeable on the subject, but geez, I have to learn/understand all this stuff just to incorporate a sub properly. I guess it's not for me. I was considering small monitors and a sub, for a friend who I'm helping out in the future, but not sure I want to set myself up for potential failure, and worse, witness her disappointment.

 

I don't think it has to be as complicated as it seems after reading some of these posts. If you're looking for absolute perfection, maybe, but if you're looking for good to very good sound, just a little patience and a book like Jim Smith's "Get Better Sound" will get you their.

 

A lot also depends on room dimensions and furnishings. If your room is ideal for sound, full range speakers will be easy to set-up to sound good. The worse your room gets re resonances and standing waves the more subs will come in handy as you'll be able to place your monitors for best imaging and the subs for best/smoothest bass response.

 

-Chris

[chg]

Thanks Chris-Yeah, I'm probably sub bashing a little too much. It's just that, the one thing that bothers me most is loose, boomy, slow, one note, fake, over-exaggerated bass/lower mid-bass/mid-bass. I really value a tight, punchy, clean kick drum, maybe more than anything else. I've always had best luck with dual 6, or 7 inch speakers that usually don't go below the 40hz range. I'll keep an open mind as far as subs, but have yet to hear one in a system that I liked. Maybe someone can recommend a few fast, tight, reasonably priced subs and I'll some day get around to investigating. I've always like the look and small, compact size of the B&W PM1.

 

Jim Smith's "Get Better Sound"

 

I mentioned earlier that I've been procrastinating (for a year) in ordering this book. I will order it tomorrow... or the weekend.