Classical music, 2-channel, and sub-woofers?

[crisnee]

Do stereo subs have to be symmetrically arranged with respect to the speakers (i.e., both six ft away)?

 

From what I've read and heard, no. Most important is to place them where the bass sounds/measures the smoothest with least room resonances. After that I suppose placing them approximately left and right corresponding to your speakers is the way to go.

 

-Chris

[wgscott]

I tried two Velodyne Microvees (stereo, speaker-level input only) for a day. They have an obligatory hard-wired 120 Hz crossover for the speaker-level.

 

It was ugly. I thought at least they would look cool, but they looked kind of junky too. I kept one for my office and sent the other back.

[Jud]

Do stereo subs have to be symmetrically arranged with respect to the speakers (i.e., both six ft away)?

 

I'm writing as someone who's only owned full range speakers, so those are the only ones I'm familiar with long-term. I've heard supposed "audiophile" sub setups short-term at dealers or friends. Never did hear a sub setup I liked. Can't imagine the timing cues being correct unless the subs and top end are carefully co-located; then what do you do about vibration transmission, especially from the subs to the top end speakers? By the time you're done fiddling with this stuff, it's more expensive than full range speakers and still doesn't sound as good.

 

There are "mighty mite" speakers on the market - small ones that claim close to full range. But these use some sort of acoustic loading against a back wall, and I recall from photos that your listening room isn't shaped to take advantage of this.

 

To me your best alternatives would be (1) be happy with what you've got, or if you currently have a sub, with what you've got minus the sub; (2) save money to buy full range speakers on the used market after thorough auditioning commensurate with dollar outlay; (3) #2, but larger dollars (and even longer, more thorough auditioning) for new speakers.

 

I'd unhesitatingly recommend the Vandersteen 2Ce new or used, but then you knew that already. :-) They used to be pretty economical once upon a time (around $1200 when I bought them new), so there could be used bargains out there. They last quite a while if my experience - 20+ years and not one problem - is any indication.

[wgscott]

Currently, I have (reasonably) full-range speakers and one sub (Rel R218) which I have crossed over fairly low, so it sounds better with sub on than off, usually. I may or may not get a second Rel R218, depending on a lot of things (like I really need to stop hemorrhaging money). [i spent more than the list price of the Rel on the little bitch pictured in the avatar a couple of weeks ago when she started seizuring].

[crisnee]

Currently, I have (reasonably) full-range speakers and one sub (Rel R218) which I have crossed over fairly low, so it sounds better with sub on than off, usually.

 

When it doesn't sound better, does it just make no difference or does it sound worse? If worse, what's the issue?

 

-Chris

[wgscott]

On some live recordings, I can hear things like low-frequency microphone noises. I guess it really is a genuine part of the recording, so it is accurate, but annoying.

[crisnee]

On some live recordings, I can hear things like low-frequency microphone noises. I guess it really is a genuine part of the recording, so it is accurate, but annoying.

 

That's funny--or not. I had a similar problem with a sub. It went too low and sounded similar things to yours. I kept thinking/wishing I had some kind of filter to rid it of the bass garbage on some recordings--it really irritated me. Eventually I got rid of the sub instead and went with smaller subs. No low organ tones but hey, problem solved, plus my neighbors dropped their petition to get me evicted.

 

-Chris

[crisnee]

Re two subs vs. one: Jim Smith of "Get Better Sound" fame swears by stereo subs, meaning you must use separate left and right outputs from your amp to your subs--many amps combine their outputs. I think he said it is particularly important for acoustic music, but I could be misremembering (R. Clemens).

 

I didn't notice a grand difference re the stereo vs dual mono setup. However dual subs (either way) did allow me to smooth out the bass and it sounded more enveloping, but as I mentioned I had small subs.

 

-Chris

[chg]

...I've heard supposed "audiophile" sub setups short-term at dealers or friends. Never did hear a sub setup I liked. Can't imagine the timing cues being correct unless the subs and top end are carefully co-located; then what do you do about vibration transmission, especially from the subs to the top end speakers? By the time you're done fiddling with this stuff, it's more expensive than full range speakers and still doesn't sound as good.

 

I agree. Only one time have I heard a sub set-up that I liked and that was only because it was paired with a full range speaker (Aerial 20T with Aerial sub) where the sub was not even audible, whether on, or off. So, really, it was of no benefit in that set-up anyway.

 

[i spent more than the list price of the Rel on the little bitch pictured in the avatar a couple of weeks ago when she started seizuring].

 

Dog medical insurance might be a worthy investment. Yes, there really is such a thing.

[chg]

Better yet, put them pups to work (earn their keep) then get a used pair of original SF Cremona.

[Sam Lord]

If you get subs, get 2. Put them right next to the mains., and time align by ear; subs should be around a cm closer to your ears than the woofers in the mains. Or get better mains like 804 Diamonds... Cheers

[prufrock]

Jud

 

Would be interested to hear your opinion on the difference in sound between the Vandersteen 2Ce and the Model 1's (presumes you have had an opportunity to have a good listen to the 1's). I did have a listen to the 2Ce's a while back, but it was not at my place and I find it really difficult to form an opinion on anything away from my familiar environment. I have four 1's - two are very early ones and the other 2 are 1c's. I run the 1c's as the mains and the other two as muted sides. The two versions sound slightly different. I think Richard regularly changes components. I like the 1c's better.

Wisdom has it that in any multiple speaker setup you should use the same speakers. Since my two different versions aren't identical anyway, the thought has crossed my mind of getting a pair of 2Ce's as the mains. However as the saying goes, if it aint broke don't fix it, and I love the sound of the 1's. I find they integrate really well with the 2Wq subs and overall its a very effortless sound.

As the 2Cs's are less efficient I would probably need a bigger amp as well.

Richard must be getting on in years. Wonder what will happen when he calls it quits.

[chg]

You wouldn't need a sub with these babies, and you'd be in ultra high end territory.

 

Eggleston Works Rosa Black Granite | Full range | San Francisco, California 94108 | AudiogoN - The High-end Audio Community

 

Or these from the same seller;

 

Eggleston Works Fontaine 2 Piece Black Granite | Full range | San Francisco, California 94108 | AudiogoN - The High-end Audio Community

 

See, country club status is not required for high end.

[wgscott]

Yeah, but if I put those in my living room, at midnight, vampires would emerge and suck my blood.

[chg]

The all black doesn't do it for ya, huh! I can understand that. I have a friend who's the same way. He likes the natural wood look, I prefer the black/darker finish look.

 

They sure would sound nice for not a lot of moola though.

[wgscott]

I'm not clear it would be a sonic improvement. Even if the speakers are objectively better, they may still be limited by the rest of my equipment. I don't think the speakers are the limiting factor in my system (at least that was my original intent).

[chg]

I'm not clear it would be a sonic improvement.

 

I'm not sure if you're being humorous here, but, FWIW, I've had a similar level of speaker (as the Rosa) and used very inexpensive equipment and the speakers were still very, very good. In contrast, I've heard the $2,000 Evolution Acoustics MMMicroOne with over $50K+ worth of Dartzeel equipment and it wasn't nearly as good as the expensive speaker inexpensive components arrangement.

 

True, those particular Eggleston speakers would require some decent horse power.

 

If you weren't joking, I respect your point of view.

[wgscott]

I'm not saying the speakers aren't better. I'm wondering if I would need a better DAC, pre-amp, amp, etc. to realize their potential.

[wgscott]

I'd rather have a couple of these in the living room, instead of two coffins.

 

[chg]

To realize their full potential, yes, but even at half of their potential they will still be very good. That's what I love about speakers in that reference range, so to speak. Plus, IMO, today, the gap between very good amps/DAC's is shrinking. An Odyssey Khartgo, (or two, run mono) and a $500 DAC wouldn't be bad at all, I don't think. But, the Rosa may be a little tougher to get by with lower components than some others just due to their size and number of drivers.

[chg]

I'd rather have a couple of these in the living room, instead of two coffins.

 

 

Again, I don't know if you're joking, or not, but I've always thought those were the ugliest speaker I've ever seen. Reminds me of a soft-serve ice cream cone.

[wgscott]

They are beautiful, in a Dr. Seus sort of way. I do think they look better than the typical audiophile coffin speakers. I've only been to one audio show, but these stood out as the only speakers I ever heard where I honestly thought the sound was not originating from the speakers. The reconstruction of a sonic image was perfect. I don't have $50K to drop on speakers, sadly.

[chg]

If I heard it sounding the way you describe, I suppose I might change my opinion on their looks. Shows are strange. They show that there are many factors to getting good sound. I heard the smaller version of this and it didn't sound good at all. They were in a huge room, however.

 

Go listen to a pair of Sonus Faber Cremona (it's what I have). No sub required and they will factually, scientifically, undoubtedly, be better than the B&W. Maybe around $4K used. I think the original are better than the new M version. I'll quit with the suggestions. I'm being rude. I'm sure you weren't planning on a speaker upgrade.

[mayhem13]

Shame there's so many negative opinions on the use of subs in a two channel system as these experiences are most likely from either improper setup or a poor understanding of one's room. When integrated properly, a multi subwoofer installation will surpass even the very best full range 2 speaker system in low frequency extension.

 

Alas, a multi sub system and proper integration can be costly. Sub drivers are generally very inefficient and require gobs of power to operate within their passband properly. Small enclosure subwoofers worsen the situation as these require magnitudes more current to plunge deeper into the lower registers. Some laws of physics just aren't worth trying to break. Combine the cost of high current amplification, robust large surface area transducers and well damped low resonant enclosures and a single subwoofer can cost more than the typical high end 2way speaker....and rightfully so. But what you get in return is well worth it!

[mav52]

Shame there's so many negative opinions on the use of subs in a two channel system as these experiences are most likely from either improper setup or a poor understanding of one's room. When integrated properly, a multi subwoofer installation will surpass even the very best full range 2 speaker system in low frequency extension.

 

Alas, a multi sub system and proper integration can be costly. Sub drivers are generally very inefficient and require gobs of power to operate within their passband properly. Small enclosure subwoofers worsen the situation as these require magnitudes more current to plunge deeper into the lower registers. Some laws of physics just aren't worth trying to break. Combine the cost of high current amplification, robust large surface area transducers and well damped low resonant enclosures and a single subwoofer can cost more than the typical high end 2way speaker....and rightfully so. But what you get in return is well worth it!

 

Well said... and don't forget room treatments which can make a world of difference in how you hear sound...