wgscott Posted December 3, 2011 Author Share Posted December 3, 2011 You are the considerate neighbor I never had. I live in a detached house. Now. However, I think, with moderation, you could probably get away with it. However, if you like the neighbor, it would be worth testing. Noise at noon is much easier to tolerate than noise at 3 am. My neighbors seem to delight in running chain-saws and other two-stroke engines. Link to comment
Panelhead Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 My home is detached, and bass is other parts if fine with a monster sub. The key is blending the sub in at the proper level. With bass management it is felt and not heard. If you hear the sub it is either too high a level or crossed too high. I can only feel the sub through the house when running sweeps for digital room correction. Then the whole house shakes. George 2012 Mac Mini, i5 - 2.5 GHz, 16 GB RAM. SSD, PM/PV software, Focusrite Clarett 4Pre 4 channel interface. Daysequerra M4.0X Broadcast monitor., My_Ref Evolution rev a , Klipsch La Scala II, Blue Sky Sub 12 Clarett used as ADC for vinyl rips. Corning Optical Thunderbolt cable used to connect computer to 4Pre. Dac fed by iFi iPower and Noise Trapper isolation transformer. Link to comment
jhwalker Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 I live in a townhome with neighbors on either side. The one on the south (away from my subwoofer and insulated by two walls and a set of stairs) says she can't hear my stereo at all. The one on the north (on the other side of the wall) not only can *hear* the music / movie / whatever, but the bass actually shakes his home - I can confirm the same if he's using *his* stereo So I wind up switching the subwoofer completely off (or deselecting it in my AVR) if I'm listening after about 8PM at night. That or use headphones. John Walker - IT Executive Headphone - SonicTransporter i9 running Roon Server > Netgear Orbi > Blue Jeans Cable Ethernet > mRendu Roon endpoint > Topping D90 > Topping A90d > Dan Clark Expanse / HiFiMan H6SE v2 / HiFiman Arya Stealth Home Theater / Music -SonicTransporter i9 running Roon Server > Netgear Orbi > Blue Jeans Cable HDMI > Denon X3700h > Anthem Amp for front channels > Revel F208-based 5.2.4 Atmos speaker system Link to comment
roark Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 Your description fits my townhouse exactly as one side I never hear(and they have two teenagers) while the other(where my sub would go) I can hear a ton. My living room has roughly the same dimensions as the OP including the high cathedral ceiling. That is also why I am extra concerned about sub as I would think to "fill" all that space it would need to be turned up. Adding a sub or new speakers I consider the "big" solution but I am also considering going "small" instead. This would be having small speakers very near field say 1-3 feet. I don't know if that would work or just foolish idea but at least speakers would be about 12 feet minimum from shared wall so I think I could turn up easily but also would not need to as much since so close? Sound plausible or just bad idea? Anyone using speakers near field like that? I posted about this recently in the Audioengine 2 thread I started. wgscott, I saw a recent post where you had B&W MM-1 and I thought those could possibly be used super near field as well. Do you like them and would you recommend them? I was kind of skeptical they are worth 2.5 times A2 but I have not heard either. Thanks again. Link to comment
wgscott Posted December 3, 2011 Author Share Posted December 3, 2011 I like the A2 better than the MM1 Link to comment
crisnee Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 Do you know your neighbors, or speak to them? What kind of speakers do you have now, and how low do they go? If they go fairly low you could try turning up your system with the bass boosted just to see how your neighbors react to that. Or better yet, perhaps someone you know has a sub and you could borrow it for a day. By the way, you don't need to get monster subs for classical music, especially if your satisfied with just gaining a bit of heft for the orchestral performances. Even the double basses only go down to about 40hz. Below 40hz is good for a kind of ambience and of course the pipe organ, but in my mind that's not terribly important. I live in an apt. and got two subs that go down to about 35hz. I got them for pretty much the same reasons you're thinking about, and I'm very happy with them (however they're not on the common wall). As to putting the sub against the common wall; as long as you don't put it right up against it (touching it) or aim the speaker at it, I don't think it really matters much. You'll find that no matter where you put the sub the bass is often louder near the wall, whatever that exactly means for ones neighbors. -Chris Link to comment
joshua.ryan.larson Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 I bought a B&W subwoofer two weeks ago. After dialing in the sub and placing it where I liked it, I kept fine-tuning it in for optimal listening of classical and jazz. I found that, during this process, I kept turning down the sub's crossover and the volume. My goal was to arrive at a sound that was natural and, in my estimation, representative of the source material. When I finally was satisfied with how the sub was integrated with my main CM9s, I felt that its effect on the overall sound was so negligible that, in my current financial situation, its contribution to the goals of my stereo was not worth spending over a grand. Alas... I returned the sub tonight. I could see re-purchasing a sub at some point, but thus endeth my sub flirtation for now. (I concede that my room is fairly small, my main speakers are full sized, and that the sub made rock and pop "more fun.") At Home: 10x12 listening room -> Asus G74Sx laptop -> Windows 10 -> Foobar 2000 (WASAPI output) -> Audioquest Cinnamon USB -> Bel Canto C5i integrated amplifier -> Audioquest Rocket 33 bi-wired speaker cables -> B&W CM9 speakers & B&W ASW10CM subwoofer. At Work: Lenovo Yoga 2 Pro -> Windows 10 -> Foobar 2000 (WASAPI output) -> Audioquest Forest USB -> Rotel RA-1570 -> Audioquest Type 4 speaker cables -> Magnepan Mini System. Link to comment
roark Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 "Do you know your neighbors, or speak to them? What kind of speakers do you have now, and how low do they go? If they go fairly low you could try turning up your system with the bass boosted just to see how your neighbors react to that. Or better yet, perhaps someone you know has a sub and you could borrow it for a day." I don't speak to my neighbors often but we get along fine and there are no real problems. So it is more from me just not wanting to create problems. Not in my current home but in the past I have been on the other side of wall from loud subwoofer from neighbors and it drove me crazy so maybe I am more sensitive to it. But I like to get along with neighbors and feel as long as they are reasonably considerate with me I will do more than the same in return. I may try to have my nephew bring his sub over to test it in my home and see the impact and how it improves my sound also. One more maybe foolish question; can I add a passive sub to my bookshelf speakers? I have seen real cheap on craigslist some Cambridge Soundworks Ensemble set ups that have a passive sub and two small satellites. It looks very similar to Bose Acoustimass and assume it is. Instead of connecting to passive sub and then to satellites from sub could I use my current bookshelf speakers instead of satellites? Would that cause any damage to receiver or speakers? I did not know if it would even work and would the passive sub help to kind of fill out the sound of the bookshelves? Or even if something like this did work is it likely to make the sound worse? Thanks. Link to comment
crisnee Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 One more maybe foolish question; can I add a passive sub to my bookshelf speakers? Technically you probably could, but you'd have to be really lucky for it to sound good or fit in with your system. Why? Because you won't be able to control the loudness of the sub relative to your speakers, nor control the cross over. In other words, even if the sub is a good unit and doesn't cause some kind of impedance problem, it's sound will most likely not fit in with your system/speakers. Even powered subs with active crossovers are not always easy to integrate. -Chris Link to comment
barrows Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 disagree with this: "By the way, you don't need to get monster subs for classical music, especially if your satisfied with just gaining a bit of heft for the orchestral performances. Even the double basses only go down to about 40hz. Below 40hz is good for a kind of ambience and of course the pipe organ, but in my mind that's not terribly important. I live in an apt. and got two subs that go down to about 35hz. I got them for pretty much the same reasons you're thinking about, and I'm very happy with them (however they're not on the common wall)." A properly integrated subwoofer can make very substantial differences in the depiction of soundstage depth, and ambience protrayal. I have set up two sub systems for show demos a few times, with very good main speakers, generally crossing the subs at 40 Hz (with the speakers run full range, never run a high end speaker from an additional high pass filter built into a sub) usually with 12 dB/octave slopes (but sometimes 24 dB/octave, depends on speaker), and the difference in soundstage depth with the sub on or off is remarkable-this can make in big difference in classical music. SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers. ISOAcoustics Oreas footers. SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | Accessories | Software | Link to comment
crisnee Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 I kind of... disagree with this: Barrows as do I, even though I said it. I was saying the above in context of what a particular poster seemed to want/need. Basically I meant to say that subs can improve one's sound considerably without them going down to the depths, one spending a lot of money and/or disturbing the neighbors in an apt. type circumstance (assuming one has book shelf speakers). I say this with certainty as it's the route I had to take. In other words don't give up on subs just because your circumstances don't allow for the big, deep reaching, expensive ones. -Chris Link to comment
maltby Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 Do I understand this right about speaker level connections? I can just hook up the subwoofers to the speaker terminals on the back of my two channel amp where the speakers are also connected. I then set the x/o and volume on the subwoofer itself and I am good to go? Is there really stereo low level information? What about going super cheap, like monoprice 12 inch woofers for $84 each? Link to comment
crisnee Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 You can do that, but I wouldn't suggest it unless you happen to know that the sub works well with your speakers and setup, or you're more concerned with just getting heavy bass and not worried about integration. The problem, at least as I see it, is that you can't control the bass extension of your main speakers. In other words, your sub and speakers will likely be difficult to integrate seamlessly. Also, one of the advantages of having subs is that you can take some of the bass load off your main speakers, which you won't be able to do in this kind of setup. -Chris Link to comment
maltby Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 I was assuming that if Jim Smith was recommending full or near-full range speakers with two subs it wasn't then to electronically make them less than full range. Link to comment
wgscott Posted December 17, 2011 Author Share Posted December 17, 2011 ... I think I understand the essence of what he is advocating, which is explicitly NOT to use the sub as a crossover, or to take the strain off of the amp powering the main speakers. Link to comment
crisnee Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 I was assuming that if Jim Smith was recommending full or near-full range speakers with two subs it wasn't then to electronically make them less than full range. I don't think that has much to do with what he is recommending. The real issue is that it isn't easy to integrate subs with other speakers, and the more control you have over any of the speakers/subs the better off you are. If you already have full range speakers your subs will double the bottom end, which may work out, but probably will not. (By the way, with cheap subs, which is what I think you said you were looking at, it almost certainly will not work). One example of what I'm talking about: One of the advantages of subs is that you can place them where the bass sounds best in your room (the least standing waves and the like). Now if your regular speakers double the sub's frequencies that advantage will be negated because you can't raise their cross over point (assuming you placed them separately for best imaging and general balance). -Chris Link to comment
esldude Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 Comments removed And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
wgscott Posted June 10, 2012 Author Share Posted June 10, 2012 Personally I would be looking at CM9 rather than "upgrading" with a pair of subs... But that's just me... Eloise The frequency range and responses are very similar, so I don't know how much of an improvement that would get me... CM 9: Frequency range -6dB at 30Hz and 50kHz Frequency response 56Hz - 22kHz ±3dB on reference axis CM 7: Frequency range -6dB at 34Hz and 50kHz Frequency response 62Hz - 22kHz ±3dB on reference axis Link to comment
Dj Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 A while back I tried what you are doing. First I had one REL sub and then the second one (they cost between $1k to $2k each). It was a pain to set them up and they needed special cable to work with my Class D amp. I wasn't really satisfied with SQ. The RELs consume about 8Watt idle and a lot more when they are running. A few month ago I tried a pair of full range speakers. I bought a pair of Wilson Audio Sophia 2 (Current version is 3). The Speakers were build initially to run even with 50Watt amps. Also they come with 10" subs build in. So the need for Subs disappeared with these speakers. My Class D amp uses ONLY 11.8Watt to run these speakers so loud that I am concerned I would get into trouble with my neighbor. I am a GREEN Audiophile so the power consumption matters to me! The bad thing about them is that they cost about $7600. They came from David Wilson's own house after being re-certified in the factory with one year warranty. But I think the cost of the speakers plus the two ugly Subs sitting around is not much less than these speakers. And the aesthetic of your home would improve with full range speakers compared with the other option. @Home: AIFF > LaCie Rikiki 2.5" USB3 > MBP 15" 8GB RAM / Audirvana Plus > ifi iUSBPower > Bel Canto mLink > Bel Canto e.One DAC2.5 > Wyred 4 SX-1000 > Wilson Audio Sophia II @Work: ALAC > LaCie Rikiki 2.5" > DELL laptop > JDS LABS OBJECTIVEDAC (ODAC) > JDS LABS C421 > Sennheiser Momentum or Sennheiser HD650 or Sennheiser HD25 Link to comment
wgscott Posted June 10, 2012 Author Share Posted June 10, 2012 I am a GREEN Audiophile so the power consumption matters to me! I'm glad I am not the only one trying to do this. Here is my roof: Link to comment
Dj Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 I'm glad I am not the only one trying to do this. Here is my roof: [ATTACH=CONFIG]834[/ATTACH] Awesome! I don't have any solar panel yet, but I use the good old Hydro power from the 40's. They have their flaws and concerns but they are a lot closer to green power than coal, gas and nucs. @Home: AIFF > LaCie Rikiki 2.5" USB3 > MBP 15" 8GB RAM / Audirvana Plus > ifi iUSBPower > Bel Canto mLink > Bel Canto e.One DAC2.5 > Wyred 4 SX-1000 > Wilson Audio Sophia II @Work: ALAC > LaCie Rikiki 2.5" > DELL laptop > JDS LABS OBJECTIVEDAC (ODAC) > JDS LABS C421 > Sennheiser Momentum or Sennheiser HD650 or Sennheiser HD25 Link to comment
prufrock Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 A properly integrated subwoofer can make very substantial differences in the depiction of soundstage depth, and ambience protrayal. and the difference in soundstage depth with the sub on or off is remarkable-this can make in big difference in classical music. I agree totally with this. I mostly listen to classical stuff and have had lots of listening both with and without subs. Now wouldn't dream of not having stereo subs as part of the system. Not only will you get the bottom octave but it will help make the rest of the system sound effortless by taking the ultra hard yakka off your amp. And you can place them according to your taste. I have mine in the corners where they can growl and send a shiver down your spine. Depending on how you trace the origins of music, you could argue that human speech is intricately tied in with its development. In many ways music seems to mimic its phraseology and the way emotion is delivered. The female voice represents the treble and the male the bass. By neglecting the very deep you are robbing the male part of some of its darkness and power. Link to comment
wgscott Posted June 16, 2012 Author Share Posted June 16, 2012 Do stereo subs have to be symmetrically arranged with respect to the speakers (i.e., both six ft away)? Link to comment
prufrock Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 Do stereo subs have to be symmetrically arranged with respect to the speakers (i.e., both six ft away)? wgscott there would be far more experienced here to answer that. Mine are pretty close but not exact, Probably half a metre out. However that is over a distance of nine metres. Mine is a very oddball setup though. Link to comment
pawsman Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 I have 2 Emotiva DSP10 Subs (on sale now for $399 each, a screaming bargain IMO) with my 2 Selah Audio Veritas, and I'm very happy. My primary listening is Classical (3000 CDs, want to get an Olive server eventually), and the DSP10's provide a beautiful foundation under the orchestra reproducing string basses/cellos and low frequency Hall ambience very well. They are sealed with very clean, well damped bass, that never sounds bloated or muddy. The DSP control on top of the Sub controls everything; I was amazed at how much cleaner, deeper bass they got when the Phase was adjusted properly (which is a trial and error process). They also have 2 parametric equalizers, Q control, adjustable low pass (from 40hz to 150hz) and gain, all controlled by DSP. I have the Subs in the front right and left corners; they really enhance the effect of being in a concert hall once the phase/gain/low pass, etc. is locked in. There is no question that 2 subs are better than 1; the stereo effect is definitely noticeable. In my smallish room the DSP10's work great; in a larger room the DSP12's might be needed. I have the low pass set very low at 45hz; my Selah Audio ported Veritas dig well down into the low forties, and this seems an optimal setting for my system/room. I've alway been a Monitor guy (despite owning the Legacy Focus in the '90's); they do so many things well- the imaging, soundstaging and open, natural sound are very appealing with classical music. Just my 2 cents- pawsman Nuprime CDP-9 w/Teradak DC-30 LPS/Mivera ICEedge 1200AS2 Class D amplifer/Tekton Impact Monitors/2 Emotiva DSP 10 Subs/Emotiva CMX-2 Line fliter-DC offset Link to comment
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