Classical music, 2-channel, and sub-woofers?

[esldude]

I've been thinking about this some more, and watched Jim Smith's DVD again. Two points he emphasizes:

 

(1) Don't set the crossover too low on the sub, as this makes it harder to integrate into the main system.

 

(2) Subs run as stereo pairs are better for preserving a sense of presence than the identical subs run as dual mono. (Also, one sub is worse than none, as one sub, or two subs as dual mono, will tend to collapse the soundstage, etc).

 

I wonder if (1) is what is responsible for (2). In other words, if the sub crossover was set to eg: 50 Hz with a steep 4th-order crossover, would the stereo pair be superior to two subs run in mono?

 

Digging up an old thread I see.

 

I don't think running mono subs that low would equal real stereo subs on minimalist recordings of something like classical music. On most other music, yes I don't think mono'd pairs would lose anything.

 

What directional hearing we have in the lower frequencies is based upon timing. Classical recordings of minimalist nature will be something like a Decca tree or spaced omnis or a stereo pair with flanking omnis.

 

Now think about it, the greatest timing difference in real life is the width of our ears or what works out to 8/10ths of a millisecond difference for most people. Yet the miking techniques above have spacing that will cause several milliseconds timing difference and will cause comb filtering between the channels. These techniques often use a meter or two or sometimes more spacing between mikes. It results in decorrelated channels because the timing difference is too much. As our ears ear it you have shifts more than 360 degrees from various sources and frequencies. The lower frequencies will sound more as if they are coming from all over rather than any one place. Such spaced mike techniques accentuate room sound or sound of the hall due to this. It actually isn't accurate to reality. It does create a nice cushion of space for higher frequencies to seem better imaged on a better stage.

 

It does give a nice enlarged sense of space, and diffuses those lower frequencies to somewhat accomplish what surround channels can do. Give a sense of the hall that isn't so pinpoint it sounds small or dead. So crossing over steeply at a lower frequency might diminish the effect some, but it would still be there. So switch from this inaccurate excess timing difference to a pair of mono'd subs and you will hear a collapse of the perceived space. More of the perceived space will still be coming from your main stereo pair if crossed over lower, but it only gets you halfway there.

 

Now on multi-miked material there is no actual timing difference and you probably would notice very little if any difference.

[GWS]

May I add? I have recently added a Definitive Super Cube 1 to the 2 CH system in my home.... I tried to like the added lower extension to my Klipschorns for which I have the xover set to 40 Hz. mainly for organ recordings or when the pedal organ is added to underscore the orchestra.

 

But alas, I have decided to leave well enough alone since the K'Horns have robust low end response to about 28 Hz. (tested with a sine wave sig. gen.) ... I'm only missing the bottom 6 notes of a 32' pedal stop...

 

However, symphonic bass drums are pretty much all there thank goodness, and so the SW sits and looks pretty ;0)

 

......Gary

PS. This is my first posting, I believe I will enjoy it here!

[Panelhead]

I recently replaced the sub I'm my system. Been using a large professional sub. It goes low and is capable of huge output. Made for large areas.

There was a Finial S220 sitting in the closet the last five years or so. Small, sealed sub, class D amp.

The Finial is made to match an electrostatic speaker. So speed was a design parameter.

Crossing at 60 HZ with 18 dB/octave and using Room Perfect to make small amplitude and phase corrections I like the results better than the brute used before.

At normal listening levels the little sub works great. It will not crack the slab like the Blue Sky 212 can, just supplements the low end.

Sub quality is less critical with DRC.

[Audio_ELF]

is you're using separate pre and power amp, you might like to try using something like a Mini DSP processor as a crossover rather than relying on the low pass filter in the sub.

 

Either pass everything through the processor, or connect the main speakers direct and just connect the sub via the processor.

[Panelhead]

My interface has crossover and DSP built in. The hardware crossover in the sub would be a step down in sound quality.

I looked at the Mini DSP when it first came out. Listened to it at RMAF. When with an Ergo instead.

Have not switched back to a 2.0 system. The subs are staying.

[mayhem13]

For those interested, I'll be putting together a Blog here on CA on subwoofer selection, integration and positioning

[tne]

For those interested, I'll be putting together a Blog here on CA on subwoofer selection, integration and positioning

 

interested

[GWS]

Love to hear your thoughts on the subject Mayhem....