DAC with volume control

[aerial7]

Not sure about the pros/cons of DAC with volume control. Seems like a great idea to me. Any thoughts?

Their are a few dacs that are on the horizon with volume control added.

Any ideas or has anyone heard these?

 

AMR DAC DP-777

Classe CP-800

Aesthetix pandora

Jeff Rowland Aeris

 

Can anyone comment on wavelength audio dac with volume control option added? Specifics/Sound?

 

I have heard that audio research was planning a DAC with volume control-anyone heard this as well.

 

Also any thoughts on WiFi streaming of music vs usb dacs. Some say the future is in streaming of music files such as PS audio Perfect Wave Dac with audio bridge. Anyone know of an update of PS audio digital lens?

 

Thanks

 

[john dozier]

I use the Anedio DAC with a built in preamp and volume control. This feeds a pair of Antique Sound Lab Monsoon monoblocks. I find that omitting the preamp adds transparency to the entire reproduction chain. I know there is controversy about this but any additional component MUST ADD distortion of some kind. You may like the distortion but it is still at varience with what you should hear. I highly suggest this approach. BTW the Anedio is a great sounding DAC easily besting some far more expensive units. They also offer a free thirty day trial so you can try this approach in your system. I understand the current production run is sold out, but James should have more shortly. I have no financial interest in Anedio, I just think it is a superior product at a very reasonable price point. Hope this helps. Kindest regards, John Dozier

 

[ted_b]

on this or any other forum. A great hi-end dedicated 2 channel preamp is the cornerstone.

 

However, just on a whim (and a decent review comment from Srajan) I tried my newly acquired Antelope Gold DAC direct-to-amp....and was astounded at the fidelity. I gained the obvious transparency, but instead of losing soundstage width and depth, instead of losing timbre and tonality, I kept it! Dynamics and micro-detail! And this with removing one of the world's leading preamps, the Concert Fidelity CF-080.

 

One of the reasons I was against this idea was from pure experience! Not only had the CF-080 (and other great active pre's) given me the necessary drive and tonality over great passives (Bent TAP, etc) but had blown away the theoretically superior direct-to-amp evaluations I had done in the past, whether it was the Modwright Transporter, the Berkeley Alpha or recently the Metric Halo LIO-8. All of them brought a 2 dimensional implosion of the soundstage and a loss of control and dynamics in my system (ymmv). I assumed it was just "you get what you pay for" and that the active preamp function was too important to leave to a small corner of the DAC. Well, in the case of my most recent Antelope Gold I was wrong. I still can't quite figure it out, but the theory (simpler, shorter signal path) is becoming reality for some systems.

 

[esldude]

Well done digital volume controls sure seem the better path to me, both from experience, and from theory. Most pre-amps control volume using a potentiometer. Even good ones seem like a less than stellar way to pass a musical signal. A few used fixed resistors which is better than a pot. A good many pre's switch your input sourcing, passively convey that to a volume control, often a pot, and follow it with a fixed gain block that boost voltage and buffers the pot from the output load of the interconnect and amp input. Some get more advanced and complex than that. Some use op amps.

 

Now when a DAC has an ouput stage unfazed by the load of an amp input and a few feet of interconnect I don't see that the pre-amp is doing much useful to your signal. With well done digital volume you can have an appropriate volume output directly to an amp without all the futzing about with the signal needed in a pre-amp. If a pre does its job with theoretical perfection the result would sound identical. Now that we can digitally switch sources without much issue a simpler system of DAC to Amp with digital volume seems like a big advantage. Sounds like one on good equipment too in my experience.

 

[mwheelerk]

I use my Bel Canto DAC1.5 direct to my Bel Canto REF150s amp and use its digital volume control to great effect in my opinion. Simple and clean. I love it.

 

[Brian A]

mwheelerk, I notice you are using iTunes. Any issues with just using the iTunes digital volume slider for volume adjustment?

 

[doug2507]

I'm also interested in this at the moment but specifically the MSB DAC. Anyone with firsthand experience?

 

[wgscott]

Don't pre-amps wind up having to attenuate the signal from a DAC, rather than amplify it?

 

With regard to iTunes and the internal volume control, the music gets resampled, so unless there is "headroom" created beforehand, it can potentially degrade the signal. If you can use the system volume control, and have 32-bit float out, it could work ok. Some of the other players take a more refined approach to volume control.

 

[PeterSt]

Hi there. Well, that took you some time ! :-))

 

But I think you know I said it quite often : you'd have to have more or less everything right, or otherwise you will receive the reverse effect (pre-amp "improving").

 

And I guess a 1 Ohm output impedance on the DAC side isn't all it takes ...

 

Regards,

Peter

 

[AudioExplorations]

Can anyone recommend DAC's that have excellent preamp/analogue output sections that sound great when routed direct to power amp?

 

I have a weiss DAC2 and when I go direct to power amp the sound gets clinical/cold/harsh, I feel as if my pre adds some 'warmth' (i.e. favorable distortion).

 

I prefer to remove the preamp from the chain and invest in a better DAC with remote control and better power amp (am considering a mcintosh power amp to provide the trademark 'warm' sound).

 

Does anyone have any recommendations? I know Chris C runs a Debussy DAC direct into mcintosh MC275 valve power amps, however this is out of my price range, I would like to stay under the 5K mark if possible.

 

[Clueless]

I use the Antelope Audio Zodiac Gold with the Voltikus power supply and I'm extremely happy with it.

 

For the first few hundred hours of use I used it through the preamp then experimented with it direct and bypassed the preamp, I feel I get a purer sound. 

 

There is also a set of analogue inputs on this DAC so it can also function as a preamp. 

 

It's also supplied with a nice metal remote for volume and source selection and since my amp doesn't have a volume control thus was a welcomed addition!

 

[ted_b]

n/t

 

[mwheelerk]

Brian A

 

It goes back a couple of years but I remember several recommendations from software (maybe PM) and hardware (DAC manufacturer?) saying not to use the iTunes control because it introduced degradation or distortion of the signal. I have had iTunes control set to max and controlled it by other methods since.

 

[AudioExplorations]

Isn't relying on software volume control EXTREMELY risky? I mean wouldn't windows/OSX sounds/youtube/etc come through at full volume and risk blowing speakers?

 

Ted: the Zodiac looks like a great unit, shame about the looks though! I will look into this. What would the other main options be?

 

[PeterSt]

I mean wouldn't windows/OSX sounds/youtube/etc come through at full volume and risk blowing speakers?

 

Guide that to an unconnected sound device. Like mobo's HD Audio (Windows situation).

 

 

 

[AudioExplorations]

Still something I would never do. Those 'default device' settings often get lost (on OSX I find I need to reset every few weeks) I guess when audio devices are unplugged temporarily for example. I can just imagine a 400W power amp firing a windows alert into an expensive set of speakers... no thanks.

 

[doug2507]

I use soundflower with OSX and when i open itunes, PM opens automatically with sound output changing to soundflower and all sounds effects etc are disabled. It's not changed from that since i set it about a year ago so not sure why you have to reset things. I use a Macbook Pro so it's always getting unplugged/plugged in.

 

[PeterSt]

I can just imagine a 400W power amp firing a windows alert into an expensive set of speakers... no thanks.

 

True within itself.

But allow me to suggest that when a 400W poweramp chrashes windows when fed with a coincidental "you've got mail" something is not quite right in the first place. I mean, keep in mind that such a situation logically urges for 48dB or more attenuation, which is not a good base to work without a preamp ...

 

Peter

 

 

[Miska]

I mean, keep in mind that such a situation logically urges for 48dB or more attenuation, which is not a good base to work without a preamp

 

48 dB attenuation is not a problem in itself, when done in combination with upsampling it can be done without any loss of SNR within the original bandwidth even when the input and output bit depths are the same.

 

 

[AudioExplorations]

Peter are you saying that with large power amps, a high amount of digital attenuation is needed, and hence it's better to work with an analogue preamp?

 

Or said differently, if you want to go dac direct to power amp, it's beter to use poweramps that punch just slightly above the speaker requirements in terms of wattage? Hence minimising attenuation to achieve comfortable listening levels?

 

[mwheelerk]

If there are concerns over keeping iTunes volume at max (and I believe this is a separate control from system volume on the Mac computer) I cannot imagine why. I have had mine set there for over three years and with various iterations of equipment starting with iMac>iTunes>Apple TV>DacMagic>Integrated Amp to iMac>iTunes>Wadia PowerDAC151 to now Mac Mini>iTunes>PM>Bel Canto DAC1.5 (with digital volume control) > Bel Canto Amp and never once have I had the least problem with any volume ’surge’ bursting through the system. Remember the system announcements are left to the systems volume control.

 

[alphonse]

I am currently using a PS Audio PWD as a Dac Preamp balanced to Bryston monoblocks. Sounds great! I just looked at the PS Audio web site discussions. Looks like the Lens and "Black Box" products are still under development. I am using an Apple TV2 as a music server until some of the new streaming products evolve a bit more.

 

Al

 

[PeterSt]

Peter:

I mean, keep in mind that such a situation logically urges for 48dB or more attenuation, which is not a good base to work without a preamp

 

Miska:

48 dB attenuation is not a problem in itself, when done in combination with upsampling it can be done without any loss of SNR within the original bandwidth even when the input and output bit depths are the same.

 

You're in a funny mood eh ?

Well, at least that is exactly what I am saying. The quote from me above has to be rephrased a little though :

 

I mean, keep in mind that such a situation logically urges for 48.0001dB or more attenuation, which is not a good base to work without a preamp

 

Is it ok now ?

haha

 

[PeterSt]

48 dB attenuation is not a problem in itself, when done in combination with upsampling it can be done without any loss of SNR within the original bandwidth

 

Yeah, but now we have a small problem ...

 

Let's call it nit picking, but what you will be talking about (we know, we know) is not being able to measure that loss of SNR (maybe, if you try very hard :-).

 

But remember, there's always the case of lossless digital volume, which is, well, really lossless.

Maybe I invented the phenomenon (maybe I'm sure :-), and it means that from the attenuated data the original can be recreated. We can try to see SNR changes from that, but it won't happen.

 

within the original bandwidth even when the input and output bit depths are the same.

 

... with my necesseary (or honest ?) addition that this can't be lossless ever. But hey, this is where other means to do it as good as possible come into play (well executed dither).

 

Peter

 

 

[PeterSt]

The subject is somewhat larger (ok, much larger), when we take into account that the D/A chips will behave differently at different levels. Remember, that's what we are doing when we attenuate in the digital domain : we'd be feeding the D/A chips with less to-their-limits data. Dynamics will stay the same, but peak to peak changes will be less (uh-oh, let's not forget 2's complement stuff here).

 

The analogue (output) stage will even be more subject to changes and limits, up to overshooting up over the voltage rails which may NOT be happening anymore with the attenuated signal. This is completely "implementation" dependend, and many parts are influenced regarding this matter, all with their own speed, limits, and further specs.

 

I can continue this with pages of detail, but it is useless because it completely depends on the implementation indeed, and also includes the D/A chips themselves of which so many exist.

 

Having said this ... now think how an analogue volume operates, and how *that* actually tries to attenuate sound.

It is COMPLETELY different ...

 

Peter