Top dog vs Top dog, Apogee or Berkeley Audio DAC?

[HiFiInsider]

The Alpha DAC is well regarded by audiophiles. The Apogee Symphony I/O is well regarded by the pros. Both are about the same price. The Apogee seems to be able to do a lot more due to the board slots. Would it be a good DAC for music servers? Apogee said they will upgrade the software to allow USB streaming in the future.

 

Anyone has thoughts on the two?

Apogee Symphony I/O:

http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/symphony-io.php

 

Berkeley Alpha DAC:

http://www.berkeleyaudiodesign.com/

 

[jonmarsh]

Comparing these two is like comparing an Aprilla RSV-4 Factory and a Lamborghini Gallardo- very different intended purposes and functionality, though both go hella fast. The Apogee has all kinds of money spent on functions suitable for pro audio design and to be at it's best will probably require their PCI 64 interface card in a Mac Pro. Like a Metric Halo LIO-8, it's a pro device with A/D and D/A capability, multi-channel, using proprietary software running on a Mac for normal configuration and functionality. Unlike the Metric Halo products, no Firewire interface (that I can find in their specs).

 

The right product to compare the Apogee to is a LIO-8, not a Berkeley Alpha DAC. BTW, I own both the Berkeley and the LIO-8, so I'm not speaking as a bench racer.

 

The Apogee is certainly interesting looking, but I haven't heard anything definitive about the sound quality, though in general a lot of studios have been switching from Digidesign to the predecessor of the Symphony, due to sound quality. If you're a Pro Tools software kind of guy, this just might be the ticket. For a two channel home playback system, I don't know how much trouble it will be to integrate into a relatively conventional setup- it will have the same issues as a LIO-8 or more so regarding I/O connection, with patch boxes probably required. With the LIO-8/ULN-8, a straight forward two channel system can be assembled using the Firewire input from a Mac, and using the Line1 and Line2 TRS output to drive through adapters a balanced input on amp or preamp. You CAN configure a LIO-8 to user AES/EBU inputs, but it's a little more hassle, and you need the firewire and Mac setup to program and configure it and save the setup into the LIO-8 memory.

 

Not knowing your system or degree of comfort with Pro audio tools and connectivity conventions, it would be hard to make a recommendation as to what will work best for you. The Alpha DAC is a very decent piece, and works beautifully in my secondary system- it's functionality suits that system to a "T". (iPad with digital interface to SPDIF and Brainstorm DCD8, and Tascam CD transport with AES/EBU output for CD's; feeding powered speakers, Alpha DAC used as level control also and input selector).

 

Two things I'd suggest you do- go listen to these units, and review what you need or can support in I/O connectivity. If the PCI 64 card and a Mac pro aren't in your tool kit, I'd say the Apogee is not for you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[HiFiInsider]

Apogee seems to over engineer their gear to last a bit longer than most digital device in terms of technology. They are constantly updating the software with more features and the resale market/value holds up nicely.

 

With the 8 analog in/out and 8 digital in/out module, the Symphony I/O can be a full featured DAC, no computer needed after set up unless you're streaming from USB in.

 

I ordered the Duet 2 in April, still no Duet 2 in my hands yet. I'm gonna see how that sounds in my system before I step up to something more serious. Apogee told me the Symphony is their BEST sounding DAC to date. Since the pros trust it for mastering, it sound be pretty decent for OCD audiophiles like me who wants the best for the money.

 

[reverendo]

Hi Jon,

I saw your comment regarding the LIO-8 and thought that you might be the right person to help me out.

I'm thinking of using my macbook via firewire to a LIO-8. Could you tell me if I can control the LIO-8 with a remote and if it could also work as a pre directly into my amps? What kind of cables would I need in order to use a balanced out?

Since you have experience with the Berkley how would you compare it's performance with the MH?

Thank you very much in advance

best regards

André

 

[ted_b]

very successfully. I simply had the Apple remote ($20 at your Apple store) and made my Pronto TSU9400 remote learn the volume commands (Apple remote is default for LIO-8). The LIO-8 responds well to it and can be used as a digital preamp, direct to amps. If you have balanced XLR cables simply buy a pair of TRS/XLR adapters (Neutrik makes good solid ones)

 

http://www.markertek.com/Connectors-Adapters/Audio-Adapters/XLR-to-1-4in-Phone-Adapters/Neutrik-USA-Inc/NA3MP.xhtml

 

and plug them into the analog 1/2 TRS outs on the back of the LIO-8. The MH console needs to be simply configured to use the remote, but doesn't need to then be active or anything.

 

[reverendo]

thanks a lot for your info, Ted, especially because you know the device first-hand.

Is configuration of the MH for remote use complicated? I would be using a Logitech Harmony Universal Remote, so I believe that I wouldn't have any difficulties.

BTW, I can't see any domestic digital inputs on the back of the LIO-8. Could you please confirm if it has optical digital or coaxial?

Best regards

André

 

[elcorso]

André there is also a remote app for iPhone & iPad from Steve Devino:

 

http://www.graniterocks.com/GraniteRocksLive/MIO_+_iTunes_Remote.html

 

Hi Jon, how is the Cardas/Ayre CD working?

 

Regards,

 

Roch

 

[ted_b]

a DB-25 connection, so you'd need a DB25 snake with 4 XLR's (I have one if you wanna buy it). To go from coax to AES requires impedance transformers (75 ohm to 110 ohm). Canare sells good inline ones. Net/net, this is not a consumer style DAC, it's a bullet proof pro one. Firewire is the connection you want to use on a daily basis.

 

[jonmarsh]

The LIO-8 is setup for a studio situation; though it has one pair of line outputs in balanced TRS format that can be used for a basic stereo output, including XLR's with adapters, the LIO-8 is usually used with a complete patch bay product like the Mamba XDB/ADB Patch Bay, which is designed for the ULN-8/LIO-8. I have one, along with the associated DB-25 Planetwaves snake cables. This gives connectivity for 8 mic inputs, 8 line inputs, 8 line outputs, and four AES/EBU balanced input/output sets (remember, they're stereo on each).

 

For "normal" home music playback, AES/EBU is not the way to go; just use the Firewire connections to a Mac. OTOH, if you're planning on just programming the console configuration with a Mac and downloading the configuration to the LIO-8, then you will need the AES-EBU, if you're using that from a transport or other type of computer. Barry and others report that the Firewire input sounds best, though the fundamental character doesn't change with the AES/EBU.

 

Keep in mind there are other message format differences between S/PDIF and AES/EBU besides the impedance and voltage levels. You might get lucky and be able to drive the AES/EBU with a hot S/PDIF signal, but that might be a dicey proposition to count on. I've tried it out with an AES/EBU input (Tascam transport), worked fine.

 

If you really want/need to use S/PDIF with an AES/EBU input, the best way is something like an RDL HR-UDC1 which provides full format conversion and reclocking, including optical, up to 24/192. Can generally be had in the range of $420 to $475. This is a well engineered piece of gear, IMO.

 

 

 

[jonmarsh]

I use both the Alpha DAC and the LIO-8; they live in different systems with different I/O setups and source hookups. I bought the Alpha DAC first, not long after it's introduction, and have been very happy with it. It lives in a "secondary" system where it's capabilities are very suited to the situation, and the sound is fine.

 

The LIO-8 may ultimately power a multi-amplifier active speaker system; it's used in a fixed sampling rate mode right now at 24/176, with Fidelia in the front end, driving a stereo power amp direct for now. Front end is a Mac late model Mac mini, which may get upgraded to a server edition or a four core configuration Mac Pro (have one already, would be something entertaining to do with the hard drives inside, converting to SSD for the boot drive, if I upgrade my workstation to a newer processor this year.) I think the LIO-8 is more neutral and more coherent in the instrumental tonality, but keep in mind we're comparing two very good products. The biggest trouble I have is that I'm spoiled by both, and having a hell of a time figuring out what DAC to get for my girlfriend's place without spending a similar fortune. Maybe a Hiface Young, for example. I don't know.... If I could find another Berkeley at a good price, I would go with that. If MH brought out a ULN2 with LIO-8 DAC's, that would be sweet, too.

 

[labjr]

"It's complicated"

 

Always seems like a complicated comparison.

 

 

"If MH brought out a ULN2 with LIO-8 DAC's, that would be sweet, too."

 

I think everyone's waiting for this. I'd like to see a 4 channel ULN-8 with conventional jacks on the back.

 

[Mr.C]

Another thing to consider is that Apogee has stated that they will be working to have a Thunderbolt interface on the Symphony which may have some technical advantages over both Firewire and SPDIF because it taps directly into the PCIE infrastructure.

 

You could also setup a digital tri-amp system with the Symphony if you get into customizing speakers.

 

 

[labjr]

"Another thing to consider is that Apogee has stated that they will be working to have a Thunderbolt interface on the Symphony which may have some technical advantages over both Firewire and SPDIF because it taps directly into the PCIE infrastructure."

 

Thunderbolt is a huge pipeline. I expect to see an explosion of I/O products in pro audio. The next few years should be interesting. I'm a bit surprised Apogee used a USB interface for a pro audio product. Though anything is probably better than S/PDIF. S/PDIF needs to be retired. Everything that doesn't come over some kind of Async transfer needs to be reclocked and will suffer some degradation.

 

 

"You could also setup a digital tri-amp system with the Symphony if you get into customizing speakers."

 

Same with MH. The possibilities are endless.

 

 

 

[reverendo]

Thanks to all for your comments. ATM I'm having a look at firewire DACs in order to not spend money on an interface. the MH LIO-8 seems to be perfect sonically since it's a pro device and since I evaluate mixes and masters at home. I do that more as a consulting producer rather than as a producer, since I treat it more as a hobby. With that in mind a pro device might be the right way to go. I got myself an older macbook and just upgraded RAM to 4GB (officially it only accepts 3GB, but astonishingly it seems to be using all 4GB) and am using it as a media center. Since I'd rather reduce the number of devices I'm thinking of selling my SB Touch and use the mac for audio, too. I am very inclined in getting a M2Tech EVO since my current DAC has an ST input. OTOH I'm playing with the idea of using a fw DAC, but choices are limited and pricey. The extra digital inputs (toslink and coaxial) is because of my Xbox and my Sky receiver, which are connected to the same system. Using fw I doubt I'll have any need for AES.

Would it be possible to accomodate these necessities with the LIO-8?

Best regards

André

 

[bdiament]

Hi Jon,

 

"...If MH brought out a ULN2 with LIO-8 DAC's, that would be sweet, too..."

 

I've seem this mentioned a lot on audio fora where there is an awareness of MH products. What many don't seem to consider is that the cost savings in eliminating 6 channels of A-D-A is not going to be of the magnitude they might imagine. It isn't the same as say, the cost differential in removing all but two channels from a multi-channel amplifier.

 

Many folks don't seem to have an issue with two-channel DACs that cost more than an LIO-8 (that provide only a fraction of the capabilities and still don't perform up to nearly the same level).

 

MH is a pro-oriented company whose interfaces are used for recording, mixing, mastering, live sound, etc. They don't make DACs per se (and I don't believe this is where their interests lie). It just so happens that their boxes, among all the other capabilities they have, serve as superb DACs. But even so, they are not "plug-and-play" audio devices like hi-fi components. They require computer setup and also require the user climb a learning curve if they're going to get the best of what the boxes can do. (The ULN-8 and LIO-8 also have connectors that are not common in the hi-fi world and so will require special cables or custom made adapters.)

 

Perhaps one day, MH will decide to offer stereo playback devices for hi-fi but personally, I would not bet heavily on the prospect. And frankly, as a professional user, in view of the fact that they are a small company that still somehow manages to provide their users with outstanding service, I wouldn't want this to change.

 

Just my perspective, of course.

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

 

[jonmarsh]

It's certainly a question of resources, and as the size of company they are, they have to invest wisely. Especially considering the software development also involved in their products.

 

Still, I can't think of a better firewire based DAC than the ULN2 for under $2K.

 

BTW, using my LIO-8 now without a preamp, and did get a Mamba interface box for it.

 

~Jon

 

[bdiament]

Hi Jon,

 

"...Still, I can't think of a better firewire based DAC than the ULN2 for under $2K..."

 

I'm with you.

I can't think of one for under $4k (and know of plenty of more expensive ones I would not trade a ULN-2 for).

 

The Mamba certainly is convenient. I decided to forego the extra contacts and internal wiring and made my own very short adapters. For my purposes, they do the job, letting me use my cables of choice.

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com