What is the best interface for Mac Computer to DAC? USB, FireWire, or Optical Out?

[cbman]

Just purchased a Mac Computer and want to know how to obtain the best audio sound for the buck. Do you get the best sound using USB, FireWire or Optical out from the computer to the DAC? My DAC has a coaxial in and optical in. If USB or FireWire out is recommended what converter would you recommend (like pay no more than $500 for interface)?

 

I am new to the world of computer audio and your help is greatly appreciated.

 

[dmagnus1]

I too have the same question. I currently have a Sonos system set up to provide distributed audio in my home, and was thinking about adding a Sonos unit to access my Mac for music files, and output them via TOSlink optical to a DAC. The question I have is whether or not there is a weak link in this system? Does the Mac output the files to the Sonos in their native resolution (eg. Apple lossless, AIFF, FLAC, or HD if you have it), or does the sound processor in the Mac get involved and alter the file in some way that degrades its information?

 

[Codifus]

....firewire is unfortunately dying:(

 

USB is winning the war due to sheer numbers. Intel invented USB as a replacement to PS/2 and dropped it on all their motherboards. It ubiquitousness was inevitable. You can have a great USB DAC, but it must be accompanied by a great USB cable;) Firewire doesn't have that issue.

 

With a great Firewire DAC, like the Weiss products, you only need a decent firewire cable, approximately $50 or less in value, to get the best out of the DAC.

 

Optical is OK. It can output bit perfect data, and only goes up to 24/96. The problem is jitter. If you add a jitter cleaning device into your audio chain, this issue becomes moot. The best known jitter devices are the Empirical Audio pace car and the Genesis Digital Lens.

 

As for sound processor involvement, that was mainly a Windows PC issue with Windows XP. Windows Vista and 7 have addressed it with WASPAI exclusive APIs. Macs have always been able to do bit perfect quite easily, albeit in a somewhat jittery manner.

 

CD

 

EDIT: Apple invented Firewire, by the way. It was so good that Sony adopted a version of it in iLink, and even the US Air Force use the Firewire protocol in their fighter aircraft.

 

Also, little known fact: the very 1st iPod had a Firewire connection. Apple bowed to pressure and released a USB version. Look at the iPods and iPads now:( no Firewire anywhere. I will be the 1st to concede, though, that Firewire was overkill for an iPod/iPad. For a DAC, though, Firewire is no joke.

 

[bixby]

for $500 or less the best interface I have used is the Halide Bridge

 

[HiFiInsider]

I am using a Musical Fidelity V-Link with my 2010 Mac Mini. Sounds better than optical out from Mini to DAC.

 

[Leigh Hibbins]

It might be slightly above your price range but the Apogee Duet is very good and doubles as an analogue-to-digital converter. I have the first model with Firewire connection doing up to 24/96. The new model 2 is USB and does 24/192.

I have had friends come over to my place with a Weiss DAC2 and try it in my system. It sounds better than the Apogee but not 5 times better as its price might suggest. The Apogee Duet is extremely good value for the money. My MacBook Pro/Apogee Duet combination sounds better than my Esoteric DV-60 player.

 

[cbman]

Thank you for your comments. They were very helpful.

 

[AudioDoctor]

I think that the connection method is just as important as the device itself. If the device is not good, the connection won't matter.

 

[Brand B]

Firewire isn't dying, but it is pretty well relegated to pro use for audio and video at the moment. Thunderbolt may kill it in a few years time, but in the interim, thunderbolt will soon allow it to be used with machines that don't have firewire ports through TB-FW adapters.

 

[barrows]

sort of! Either USB or Firewire can offer equally good performance, but only with the best possible interface device.

USB and Firewire both have plenty of bandwidth to support high resolution playback, and as long as the interface hardware and software is properly implemented, either choice can result in the highest quality audio playback.

 

[Paul R]

Listen to it for a week or so, and then go from there. You already have everything you need to do that, with the possible exception of a Mini TOSLink adapter or cable.

 

-Paul

 

 

[cbman]

Leigh thank you very much for your comments. They were extremely helpful. I was thinking about going with FireWire before I read your comments. Now I am really considering the Apogee Duet.

 

question- It appears that the Apogee Duet only has an 1/8" headphone jack out. I assume you use the 1/8" jack out and then have RCA jacks going to your preamp Left and Rigt in. Is that correct?

 

[Leigh Hibbins]

Log on to the Apogee Digital website for the low down on the Duet.

http://apogeedigital.com/products/duet2.php

The 1/4" headphone jack is just for headphones. There is a breakout cable for connection via 1/4" jacks to your hi-fi so you need 1/4"-to-RCA cable or adapters. Cardas make a high quality adapter for a reasonable price. There is also an option of an Apogee breakout box with balanced connectors.

I have found that the cables in to and out of the Duet are important, in fact my cables are more expensive than the Duet but I liked the Duet so much I just kept upgrading the cables and things just kept getting better. The money on cables has not been wasted. The potential of the Duet is there. You can continue to upgrade as funds permit. I'm keeping the Duet until there is a DAC that is significantly better in sound quality AND as good a value for money as the Duet. To be honest with you I am surprised just how good the Duet can sound. I am also using Pro Tools 9 for CD ripping and computer playback. Sounds so much better than the usual computer music players – see post elsewhere on Computer Audiophile: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Forget-Amarra-Use-Pro-Tools-9

 

[der_bothaus]

Well arguably the best would probably be a FW connection to a Metric Halo ULN-8 or LIO with playback handled by Amarra.

Those start at $3900.00 and the ULN-8 is $5999.00. That is an enormous amount to pay though. I have a ULN-2 and it sounds very nice indeed. If you want flat, bit perfect on the cheap and all you need is conversion try some of the RME stuff . They seems less colored than Apogee. But if you want "Wow" the duet is probably better than most (Duet2 even more so). I personally do not like Apogee's top end sizzle (I have not heard the Symphony or the Duet2 with their updated DA). Cheapest RME is the Babyface at $749.00.

 

[hafjell]

Leigh, a million thank you's for your words. Could you be specific about cables from the Duet? What have you tried, what didn't you like, what do you love? To be honest I'm trying to limit expenses here but would appreciate your thoughts at all price levels.

 

[Leigh Hibbins]

Hi hafjell,

 

I will probably be laughed at by many readers, receive a lot of flak and be considered ridiculous for listing the cables I use for my Apogee Duet, but here I go.

 

The standard cables which come with the Duet are ordinary.

 

First, I purchased a BREAKOUT Box with RCA connectors. This is a hand-wired solid box replacing the flimsy standard breakout leads. I see from the current BREAKOUT website that only TRS and Balanced outputs are now available and, at twice the price I originally paid. Link: http://www.duetbreakout.com/

 

Second, I had an Audioquest Sky RCA cable on my Esoteric DV-60 player. I tried it on my Duet and was most surprised at the level of improvement. So I had to get one for the Duet as well. It might seem ridiculous purchasing a cable costing so much more than a component, but the sound improvement was there, and I liked it.

 

Thirdly, I had been using a Gold X Firewire cable (400-to-400) with an 800-to-400 adapter. My MacBook Pro has only Firewire 800 and the Duet only 400. A local hi-fi dealer sold me a Firewire cable (for a very modest sum) which had an 800 connector at one end and a 400 at the other. This was a significant improvement. The cable has no markings and the dealer cannot remember from where he obtained it, so I cannot give details. It is dark grey in colour and has LEDs at both ends.

 

Fourthly, I purchased an Audioquest Diamond USB to go between the MacBook Pro and my external hard drive on which my music files are stored. This USB cable replaced a Kimber USB cable which has received good reviews on this website. The Audioquest cable was vastly superior allowing more detail and larger soundstage. If I upgrade to an Apogee Duet 2 or any other USB DAC I can use this USB cable on the Duet/DAC and the Firewire cable on my external drive (which has multiple interfaces).

 

I have been reluctant to upgrade my Duet because there are so many DACs coming on to the market. I'll wait until there is something significantly better than the Duet AND which is as good a value for money as the Duet. I have heard the Weiss DAC2 in my system and was not greatly impressed until we put a good power cord on it. I would not use a Weiss without a good power cord. The DAC2 plus a good power cord is eight times the cost of the Duet. The new Weiss DAC202 with a good power cord would be 13 times the cost of a Duet.

 

With each upgrade of cable in my MacBook Pro/Apogee Duet system I have been impressed with the results. The Duet obviously has the potential and it is worth realising it.

 

I'm sticking with the Duet for the time being although I might get a Duet 2 and sell my original Duet.

 

The rest of my system includes a Classé CAP-151 integrated amp, Clearaudio Champion Level II turntable with ceramic-magnetic bearing upgrade and Clearaudio Syncro power supply, Clearaudio Unify tonearm, Clearaudio Concerto MC cartridge, Pathos In The Groove Mark II phono stage, DIY balanced cable using copper ribbons terminated with Bocchino Technologies XLRs (the same as used by Audioquest), Audioquest Meteor speaker cable, Martin Logan Ascent i speakers, Stax Lambda earspeakers and energiser, Nordost power cords, Quantum QBase8 power board, Clearaudio Magix supports under all components, and DIY rack featuring steel, wood, cork and ball bearings.

 

[hafjell]

Thanks, so much, Leigh. Why would they laugh? Because some of the cables are expensive?

 

The audioquest sky rca is out of my price range, period. Glad it worked for you.

 

The audioquest diamond usb cable is pricey but at least sub-4 figures. And as you note, transferable to a new system configuration. Smart purchase.

 

So that leaves me wondering if I should buy the breakout box. Those are relatively cheap. Am I right that you feel the breakout is a big improvement over the standard cables? You've said as much, but I was curious, if I'm not going to get all the other cables you've purchased, should I still consider the breakout box a wise choice?

 

Thanks a million. We think alike on this issue. Your system is leagues better than mine, but I still find it helpful to hear your thoughts. Loved your post about PT9, btw.

 

[Leigh Hibbins]

Hi hafjell,

 

To be honest I cannot remember how much difference the Breakout box made, but I knew upgrading the standard Apogee Firewire cable to a Gold X one made a significant difference and assumed upgrading the standard breakout leads would do the same. I also got the Breakout box to enable placing a good RCA cable on it. The current Breakout box has no RCA and only TRS or balanced. To make use of these you would of course need the appropriate cables or adapters, or you might be able to get a custom Breakout box made for you with RCA if you wanted that. The fact that Apogee now make their own Breakout box for the Duet 2 is testimony to the success of the third party one – although this might be for reliability issues rather than sonic ones as the Duet is used by bands on the run.

 

Another alternative is to make your own breakout leads – direct from Duet to amp input. People have done it. There is a wiring diagram for the computer-type plug that screws in to the Duet – it may be in the manual. A number of the guys in my audio club have made their own interconnects. The balanced interconnect between my phono stage and my amp is a DIY which does an excellent job at a fraction of the cost of bought leads. I'm not in the habit of DIY but the expertise of other members of the audio club was readily available and it worked a treat.

 

Happy listening.

 

[cbman]

Leigh,

 

Thanks for the detailed information. I appreciated you commenting that you are using ProTools 9 software. Have you tried the Audirvana or Pure Music software? How do they compare to ProTools 9?

 

I appreciated the information regarding Apogee Duet. I checked with Apogee and they advised that Duet 2 would not work with my Mac G5 since it will only work with the Intel processor. They recommended the Apogee Mini DAC. Are you familiar with this DAC? They indicated that the Apogee Duet 2 sounded better than the original Duet and the Mini Dac would be close to the sound of the Duet 2.

 

Again, thanks for your thoughts. PS- I was impressed with your system you described in one of your responses.

 

[Leigh Hibbins]

Hi cbman,

 

Yes, I looked at the Apogee Mini-DAC but I wanted both an ADC and DAC, and preferably something that looked smart. The Mini-DAC judging from Apogee's heritage would be a good product if you need only a DAC.

 

I have not heard Pure Music in my system but have heard it in a friend's system through a Weiss DAC2. I preferred Amarra Mini in his system for the same reasons I was enjoying Amarra Mini in my own system. This was about a year ago. Both music players have been upgraded since then. Recently I downloaded Decibel 1.2. I like Decibel's interface and it sounds better than iTunes, but I prefer Amarra Mini 2.2 (in playlist and cache mode), and in turn I prefer Pro Tools 9 to Amarra Mini.

 

My girlfriend (also an audiophile) are having a lot of fun listening to PT9 through the Duet. In particular since upgrading to PT9 and the Audioquest Diamond USB cable the soundstage and detail has approached the level of vinyl playback. Previously in my system the soundstage with digital playback was considerably more narrow than with vinyl. I am now enjoying Red Book (and some hi-rez downloads) on the music server, SACD on the Esoteric, and vinyl on the turntable. They're all good.

 

[rwwear]

I don't understand why more DAC manufacturers aren't using HDMI for computer audio.

 

[bdiament]

Hi Rob,

 

"I don't understand why more DAC manufacturers aren't using HDMI for computer audio."

 

The reason is the HDMI is not well suited to the highest fidelity audio.

 

My understanding (always subject to modification ;-}) is that HDMI uses a clock rate that is determined by the video signal bandwidth. Jitter performance is inferior to S/PDIF (which itself is no great shakes in this department).

 

The fact that it is locked into HDMI for digital audio is one of the prime reasons we decided to not put our high resolution audio releases on Blu-ray disc.

 

Then there are the HDMI (and/or Blu-ray) licensing fees to consider. From my perspective, these might be worth it if the audio delivery was better. But it isn't.

 

I have yet to hear a digital audio transmission format as robust and of as high a quality as Firewire. That said, I would give greater consideration to the entire design -and performance- of a DAC (input through output) than I would to the transmission protocol.

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

 

[rwwear]

Thanks Barry,

 

HDMI will be a necessity in the near future for Bluray audio though.

 

[barrows]

HDMI is a terrible interface for digital audio. SPDIF is not great either. Async Firewire and Async USB are much better interfaces for high quality audio.

If you want to learn about HDMI's problems, google: HDMI Charles Hansen, and/or see if Charlie has info on it at ayre.com.

HDMI is not the only way to access BluRay content, but the other ways (ripping BluRay, etc) are really problematic right now. Hopefully, we will soon have better ways to access BluRay audio content in the future.

Using HDMI in a product (DAC) requires paying for an HDMI license. While licensing fees like this are no big deal for companies (Sony, etc) who expect to make hundreds of thousands of a given component, high end audio companies, who make only thosands of units of a given product, cannot afford HDMI licenses.

 

[hafjell]

Leigh, if you were going to stick with the Duet stock breakout cables can you recommend a 1/4" to RCA cable?

 

Or, should I go with the Cardas adapter, can you recommend a good rca to rca for this setup?

 

Cheers, Trent