USB Extender Solves Cable Length Limitation

[Jim Smith]

I use a very good 3M+ IC (RCA/unbalanced) for voicing sessions.

 

My USB cable is 2M Transparent.

 

Tried the Monoprice 5M and much shorter IC, hoping for performance at least equal to the 2M USB cable and longer IC. Unfortunately, in my system, I didn't think it was better.

 

Of course, a 3M IC is not exactly a long cable for that application.

 

But this may be DAC and USB cable dependent. Not to mention system dependent re the longer ICs.

 

I use an Ayre QB-9.

 

[Charles Hansen]

As Jim says, adding longer analog cables is going to be dependent on both the DAC and the cables. In audio, as with everything else in life, there are only trade-offs.

 

Many people put their equipment rack between the speakers. Then all of the cables are short. The problem is that the equipment messes up the sound, creating early reflections that especially damage the ability to develop a deep soundstage.

 

So we always have used long interconnects to move everything away from the speakers (except the power amps). How much this affects the sound probably depends on the brand (and model) of interconnect more than anything else. Some interconnects are specifically designed to work well at very long lengths. I have never noticed any problems with this.

 

Nearly all source components and all preamps are equal in their ability to drive long cable lengths. (On a separate subject, I have always found that adding a preamp to a system improved the sound and I cannot explain why.) So I think it would be a fairly safe option to use long interconnects in almost any system, from a sonic standpoint. (I would recommend checking with the DAC manufacturer to be sure, especially with tube DACs.)

 

The big disadvantage is cost. The interconnect cables we use in our reference system cost several thousand dollars for a 20' pair. On the other hand an Icron is $325 and the Monoprice is about 1/10 that price. So it will definitely be much less expensive to use a USB extender than a pair of long, good interconnects.

 

Like I said, life if full of trade-offs.

 

[darascal]

Hi Charles,

 

You mentioned running a signal through these extenders for a few weeks. In general, do you break in cables before you start using them in your design & testing? I'm curious if you're willing to share how you do this? And are you aware of any kind of consumer device that would accomplish this?

 

Thanks!

Rascal

 

[Quest]

Charles, you have inspired me to revisit the idea of shifting away my equipment from the middle of my speakers. You are right though - cable cost is prohibitive and has been the main reason why I had done this arrangement.

 

I had thought that keeping the rack low (1 or 2 tiers) was good enough to keep the sonics decent but that might not be right.. any comment?

 

[Charles Hansen]

There's no secret to burning in equipment. It doesn't matter whether it is an amp or a CD player or a cable. Just play music through it. Normal listening levels on "repeat" or a radio station.

 

Depending on the equipment it will usually take between 50 and 500 hours to break in. Most stuff will have the bulk of the break-in done after a two to four days (50 to 100 hours), with smaller improvements after that. But some stuff will have a huge transformation at 200 hours. Go figure...

 

I don't believe in "break-in" discs. We make a "system enhancement" disc that works great for "tuning up" your system. But when we have tried putting it on repeat to break something in, the result is not good.

 

[Charles Hansen]

I really don't like anything in between the speakers. One of the best sounds I ever heard was at a summer CES in Chicago (they haven't had those for nearly 20 years now). There was a weird room that was like three rooms in a row. You walked into an entry that was maybe 12' x 12'. Then the main room was probably 20' wide and 12' long, with the short dimension connecting to another room that was 12' x 12'. There were no walls or doors between the rooms although there was a large tunnel for pipes on the ceiling, maybe 18" square that ran across the dividing line between the middle and rear-most rooms.

 

At first the exhibitor was trying to put the speakers in the rear-most 12' x 12' section with the audience in the larger middle room. The sound was god-awful. He played with all kinds of things and nothing worked.

 

Then he finally did something crazy and pulled the speakers all the way into the middle room so that they had 12' of space behind them. OMG! The sound was completely detached from the speakers! I have never heard anything like it -- the rear-most room was full of musicians and there was no stereo playing at all. It was truly eerie...

 

Similarly, when Jeff Rowland released his Model 9 amplifiers they were four-box monoblocks with separate power supply chassis. They were great amps, but when they were stacked up between the speakers you could hear the sound bouncing off that big wall of front panels. If you are going to put stuff between your speakers, I would keep it as low as possible. You might be able to put some equipment directly on the floor (on footers!) and then have one low shelf above that, but that is absolutely the farthest I would go. It would involve a lot of bending over, but it would save on the cost of the long interconnects. Good ones are usually several thousand dollars for a 25' pair...

 

[Quest]

Charles, thank you for your advice. It's in line with my own thoughts and I just have to put more effort in to getting things done.

 

I actually saw one of the videos with you and Jim Smith (maybe at Rocky Mountain Fest) and you did mention that room. I do have an odd room myself, and will work towards something. Haven't ordered Jim's book but hope I will get a better idea once I do.

 

[darascal]

I was partly curious, because there was a (very derisive) mention of a product (not a CD) on another thread here intended for cable break-in and conditioning, than purports to work by running "a wideband gaussian noise source that is amplitude modulated by a low frequency swept triangle wave, which provides complete audio bandwidth burn" through the cable.

 

Just wondered if there might be usefulness to it at all.

 

Thanks!

Rascal

 

[darascal]

Quest, I'll also chime in about the positives of moving gear off to the side. At Jim Smith's nagging, I mean suggestion (via the newsletter), I moved my 5-shelf rack to the side & was suprised at the sound improvement. And I'm not so great at hearing subtle differences. Definitely opened up the sound.

 

Thanks, Jim!

 

Rascal

 

[Charles Hansen]

Cable break-in boxes can be useful in certain situations. One time we had to have a cable made for a show setup at the last minute. There wasn't time to break it in at the show, so they shipped it in a box with a battery-powered break-in device attached.

 

I've also heard that the low levels of a phono cartridge are insufficient to break-in cables (including the tone-arm wiring). I've heard reports that attaching a break-in box to the cartridge clips on your tonearm wires and leaving the interconnect attached can give some benefits but I have not tried it myself. I'm pretty sure we have some sort of break-in box somewhere at the factory, but I just haven't played with it much.

 

I think that music will do as good or better of a job than anything else, but it might take longer. I'm not in a hurry. It's nice to just have the system keep improving as I use it.

 

[GemMoth]

I have a USB cable repeater (16 feet) with another USB cable (15 feet). About 10 metres total. It's for connecting my DAC to my computer. It's working but it's not great at all. Because I get hiss or noise.

I have no such hiss when I use shorter USB cables (without repeater). Shorter means about 8 metres I guess (it's USB cable put together).

 

What should I do?

 

Try adding another 2 metres cable to my 4 x 2 metres cables? LOL

Try another make of USB repeater cable? I have this : eForCity NEW 16FT/5M ACTIVE USB 2.0 EXTENSION / REPEATER CABLE: Amazon.ca: Electronics

[One and a half]

The Mac Mini in the rack is tiny and quiet, except for the hard drive. I am too stingy to change it to an SSD and having to reach in behind to switch it on is quite an accomplishment in tight and narrow spaces. I have looked on the web to power up the Mini from applying AC power, but no one has had any success, unlike PCs which have it built into BIOS, just select it even with a few options and it works...anyway.

 

So the Mini has to go somewhere else, no place left in the lounge, besides the USB cables, good ones at 3m are not cheap. Enter the Icron Ranger 2212, USB Extender. The 25m CAT5 cable is already installed to the garage ahead of the Ranger's arrival, tonight was a test bench run to see if the Ranger would transmit USB Class 2.0 Audio over CAT5 with just a 5m straight patch cable.

 

It works by connecting the computer to a LEX (transmitter) unit, where the power is connected in the same block. At the other end where the DAC is, there's a REX (Receiver) unit. No aux power is required at REX end.

Each box has a set of diagnostic LEDs which indicate power on, Link, Host and Activity. Windows 7 recognised the Ranger 2212 without any issues, was ready in seconds. No other drivers or installation methods are needed. My guess under OSX, the process would be the same.

 

For Audio, the Ranger 2212 had to pass:

 

Redbook - Tick

88/24 - Tick

96/24 - Tick

192/24 - Tick

DSD64 - Tick

DSD128 - Tick

 

All transmission speeds were superb, no interruptions, no ticking, no pops, no white noise, no mis-timing, no long delays (JRMC switches normally between sample rates as if there is one cable). BRILLIANT! I can't detect any worsening of the sound, it is as if, there's only one cable like before.

 

The Icron Ranger 2214 can power four USB devices, but I didn't pick this model for four USB devices, only one. There are several other USB extenders in the Icron range, but needed to be sure that DSD would work, so looked for the words, High Speed and USB2.0 and this device fits that bill.

 

The power supply is a 24Vdc at 1A, semi wall wart SMPS, so will experiment with a larger house PSU later on. Right now, the USB A to USB B cables are Nordost Blue Heaven for both ends at the computer and at the DAC. You still need to have good cables, I tried the supplied USB cables, and they aren't that great. Most likely perfect for printers, or cameras, not for audio though. Over the weekend, the Mini will be moved to the garage closer to the house 24V PSU and to connect to the garden variety Blue sheath CAT5.

 

The Ranger also allows to resurrect a regular noisy PC out of the lounge, to somewhere else with no restrictions other than the 100m cable limit. If you need to go beyond that distance, there's models with Fiber Optic cables, but they are getting pricey (for me).

 

 

 

[GemMoth]

I have a USB cable repeater (16 feet) with another USB cable (15 feet). About 10 metres total. It's for connecting my DAC to my computer. It's working but it's not great at all. Because I get hiss or noise.

I have no such hiss when I use shorter USB cables (without repeater). Shorter means about 8 metres I guess (it's USB cable put together).

 

What should I do?

 

Try adding another 2 metres cable to my 4 x 2 metres cables? LOL

Try another make of USB repeater cable? I have this : eForCity NEW 16FT/5M ACTIVE USB 2.0 EXTENSION / REPEATER CABLE: Amazon.ca: Electronics

 

Update : I installed simple extender (not repeaters). It's two USB cable put together between my computer and my DAC. About 40 feet. It works fine. Better than the repeater.

[asdf1000]

The Mac Mini in the rack is tiny and quiet, except for the hard drive. I am too stingy to change it to an SSD and having to reach in behind to switch it on is quite an accomplishment in tight and narrow spaces. I have looked on the web to power up the Mini from applying AC power, but no one has had any success, unlike PCs which have it built into BIOS, just select it even with a few options and it works...anyway.

 

So the Mini has to go somewhere else, no place left in the lounge, besides the USB cables, good ones at 3m are not cheap. Enter the Icron Ranger 2212, USB Extender. The 25m CAT5 cable is already installed to the garage ahead of the Ranger's arrival, tonight was a test bench run to see if the Ranger would transmit USB Class 2.0 Audio over CAT5 with just a 5m straight patch cable.

 

It works by connecting the computer to a LEX (transmitter) unit, where the power is connected in the same block. At the other end where the DAC is, there's a REX (Receiver) unit. No aux power is required at REX end.

Each box has a set of diagnostic LEDs which indicate power on, Link, Host and Activity. Windows 7 recognised the Ranger 2212 without any issues, was ready in seconds. No other drivers or installation methods are needed. My guess under OSX, the process would be the same.

 

For Audio, the Ranger 2212 had to pass:

 

Redbook - Tick

88/24 - Tick

96/24 - Tick

192/24 - Tick

DSD64 - Tick

DSD128 - Tick

 

All transmission speeds were superb, no interruptions, no ticking, no pops, no white noise, no mis-timing, no long delays (JRMC switches normally between sample rates as if there is one cable). BRILLIANT! I can't detect any worsening of the sound, it is as if, there's only one cable like before.

 

The Icron Ranger 2214 can power four USB devices, but I didn't pick this model for four USB devices, only one. There are several other USB extenders in the Icron range, but needed to be sure that DSD would work, so looked for the words, High Speed and USB2.0 and this device fits that bill.

 

The power supply is a 24Vdc at 1A, semi wall wart SMPS, so will experiment with a larger house PSU later on. Right now, the USB A to USB B cables are Nordost Blue Heaven for both ends at the computer and at the DAC. You still need to have good cables, I tried the supplied USB cables, and they aren't that great. Most likely perfect for printers, or cameras, not for audio though. Over the weekend, the Mini will be moved to the garage closer to the house 24V PSU and to connect to the garden variety Blue sheath CAT5.

 

The Ranger also allows to resurrect a regular noisy PC out of the lounge, to somewhere else with no restrictions other than the 100m cable limit. If you need to go beyond that distance, there's models with Fiber Optic cables, but they are getting pricey (for me).

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]5839[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]5840[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]5841[/ATTACH]

 

Hi mate, sorry to bring an old thread back to life in 2017 but in looking for a cost effective USB galvanic isolation solution (high speed USB 2.0), I found this very interesting. Are you still using the same Icron model?

 

Cheers

[One and a half]

Hi mate, sorry to bring an old thread back to life in 2017 but in looking for a cost effective USB galvanic isolation solution (high speed USB 2.0), I found this very interesting. Are you still using the same Icron model?

 

Cheers

 

Hi Em, yes still using the Icron as is. The PSU is a 24V 3A Siemens Sitop, the max leakage on the AC is 3mA, which isn't too bad for an Smps.

 

Don't think about isolation on this model, the noise from the computer to the DAC is still there, so an Intona is needed.

[asdf1000]

Hi Em, yes still using the Icron as is. The PSU is a 24V 3A Siemens Sitop, the max leakage on the AC is 3mA, which isn't too bad for an Smps.

 

Don't think about isolation on this model, the noise from the computer to the DAC is still there, so an Intona is needed.

 

You read my mind, I was going to ask you about why you used an Intona after it (I saw you used it on other threads).

 

So the ethernet transformer isolation isn't enough. Bugger !

[One and a half]

You read my mind, I was going to ask you about why you used an Intona after it (I saw you used it on other threads).

 

So the ethernet transformer isolation isn't enough. Bugger !

 

Sadly but in a good way the Icron doesn't add or subtract anything else , so it's neutral.

[asdf1000]

Sadly but in a good way the Icron doesn't add or subtract anything else , so it's neutral.

Excellent, which is what you want if you're extending the USB over a large distance.

 

But for my application, at a desktop going into a Chord Mojo Dac, an Intona type device is probably the only thing that will work.

 

I was trying to cheat (by being cheap) hoping an Icron and short 1m Cat6a cable would give me the galvanic (transformer) isolation needed :-(

 

The wait for the iFi iGalvanic3.0 and Uptone ISO REGEN continues :-(

[One and a half]

Excellent, which is what you want if you're extending the USB over a large distance.

 

But for my application, at a desktop going into a Chord Mojo Dac, an Intona type device is probably the only thing that will work.

 

I was trying to cheat (by being cheap) hoping an Icron and short 1m Cat6a cable would give me the galvanic (transformer) isolation needed :-(

 

The wait for the iFi iGalvanic3.0 and Uptone ISO REGEN continues :-(

 

The USB fixers have this habit of interacting with each other. The Intona really lifts the soundstage about 60cm above the tweeter. When I add the RUR, that soundstage drops, but I gain a little depth, but not so much.

There's the RUR's PSU to deal with, so also looking forward to the Isoregen plus LPS-1, providing PSU isolation plus galvanic isolation on the USB. I wonder if the regen and or the galvanic isolation section can be bypassed.....to see what the different effects are and how they change the sound.

[asdf1000]

The USB fixers have this habit of interacting with each other. The Intona really lifts the soundstage about 60cm above the tweeter. When I add the RUR, that soundstage drops, but I gain a little depth, but not so much.

There's the RUR's PSU to deal with, so also looking forward to the Isoregen plus LPS-1, providing PSU isolation plus galvanic isolation on the USB. I wonder if the regen and or the galvanic isolation section can be bypassed.....to see what the different effects are and how they change the sound.

 

Yeh that would be very nice indeed.

[asdf1000]

The USB fixers have this habit of interacting with each other. The Intona really lifts the soundstage about 60cm above the tweeter. When I add the RUR, that soundstage drops, but I gain a little depth, but not so much.

There's the RUR's PSU to deal with, so also looking forward to the Isoregen plus LPS-1, providing PSU isolation plus galvanic isolation on the USB. I wonder if the regen and or the galvanic isolation section can be bypassed.....to see what the different effects are and how they change the sound.

I wonder if the receiving unit has low quality switching voltage regulators inside. So it doesn't matter how good the external power supply is?

 

Maybe that's why the the ethernet transformer isolation isn't enough?

 

The Icron isn't made for the audiophile market exclusively, unlike the PS Audio LANRover.

 

It's only made to extend USB, not isolate as you say, so they wouldn't be focusing on low noise components as much, at the receiving end at least.

 

Just thoughts

 

 

Sent from my Blackberry DTEK50 using Tapatalk

[Superdad]

I wonder if the receiving unit has low quality switching voltage regulators inside. So it doesn't matter how good the external power supply is?

 

Maybe that's why the the ethernet transformer isolation isn't enough?

 

 

Well, that's just it. When you power the ICRON (or LANrover or Startech equivalents) from any sort of external supply that is not batteries or an LPS-1-type unit), the you are reintroducing another AC leakage current loop just before your DAC. (Particularly bad with an SMPS, but all traditional LPS have some leakage as well.)

 

I have an ICRON to play with (the correct, Gigabit LAN isochronous-capable version), and despite the input being marked for 24V, it is quite happy running from 12V or 14V from a series wired pair of LPS-1s. And I tap off one of them to also power the ISO REGEN.

 

As Gary (One and a half) says, the ICRON units are pleasantly transparent. That is, they seem (at least the way I have them powered) to do no harm. Can't say the same for something like the Corning Optical USB.

The USB output signal integrity from the ICRON is nothing to get excited about, but of course that's easy to fix and the ICRON does certainly allow for remote connections.

 

--Alex C.

 

P.S. I admit to not yet having connected the ICRON through an Ethernet switch--or even with a cable longer than 1-foot! So my above comments are, I guess, conditional.

[asdf1000]

Well, that's just it.

The USB output signal integrity from the ICRON is nothing to get excited about, but of course that's easy to fix and the ICRON does certainly allow for remote connections.

 

 

Thanks heaps Alex. The LANRover (which is based on the Isochronous ICRON model you have) touts USB signal regeneration (of the USB signal integrity?)

 

Is it possible PSA have had that feature put in for their product, which isn't in your ICRON?

 

I also wonder if PSA have galvanically isolated the 5Vdc power line, of their receiving unit?

 

 

Sent from my Blackberry DTEK50 using Tapatalk

[lmitche]

Thanks heaps Alex. The LANRover (which is based on the Isochronous ICRON model you have) touts USB signal regeneration (of the USB signal integrity?)

 

Is it possible PSA have had that feature put in for their product, which isn't in your ICRON?

 

I also wonder if PSA have galvanically isolated the 5Vdc power line, of their receiving unit?

 

 

Sent from my Blackberry DTEK50 using Tapatalk

The Adnaco units can be used to accomplish the same thing using fiber. Powering the USB side with an lps-1 on a very short connector yields awesome sq.

[Superdad]

Thanks heaps Alex. The LANRover (which is based on the Isochronous ICRON model you have) touts USB signal regeneration (of the USB signal integrity?)

 

Is it possible PSA have had that feature put in for their product, which isn't in your ICRON?

 

The very way the ICRON tech (which PSA uses) works creates ("regenerates", funny how our product name has become part of every USB device's marketing--nobody used the term in relation to USB before our REGEN) a new USB signal.

 

Of course it has its own USB PHY, though I'm forgetting if it is embedded in code in their ASIC or FPGA, or if they feed a separate PHY. Improving SI would involve all the usual: low-phase-noise clock, lots of attention to power networks, attention to optimizing output impedance, etc.

 

Without seeing the LANrover PCB, I would not speculate on what customizations they did. And without hearing it, I could not compare it versus the new ICRON set I have.

Frankly doing either would be inappropriate of me as a manufacturer in this space. I like and respect PS Audio--their people and their products--and they have been quite kind to me.

The LANrover is a fine product, and knowing what ICRON charges to license their IP and their modules, I can assure you that PS Audio is being quite reasonable with the price of the LANrover.

 

 

I also wonder if PSA have galvanically isolated the 5Vdc power line, of their receiving unit?

 

They would have had to go to some lengths to do that. Maybe a step-up transformer across a "moat," followed by a low noise regulator. But really, I should not speculate.