Expectation Bias

[pkane2001]

17 minutes ago, hopkins said:

 

Not really. It's pretty clear from his explanations and measurements that  clock performance can be degraded even with an on-board clock. USB does not change anything in that respect. 

 

The chance of that is small with any decent DAC and can be easily seen using even simple jitter tests. More advanced tests are available using AP analyzers, as an example. Heroic efforts to measure this are not required. This also would not change with a buffer setting in the PC player, like the one that was used in Mani's testing. What USB connection changes is, like I said, transmission and source-related jitter rejection compared to SPDIF.

 

16 minutes ago, hopkins said:

I'd be curious to know more of what you are doing. 

 

https://deltaw.org/

[pkane2001]

38 minutes ago, hopkins said:

 

Have you used this to compare an original WAV file with it's recorded playback from a DAC (using ADC) ? If so, what does it tell you? 

 

That's what DeltaWave is designed to do. I and others have done the analysis with at least a few hundred DACs, ADCs, and audio interfaces. The results include time domain and frequency domain analysis, filter comparisons, linearity, jitter, and audibility analysis, and a whole lot more. The tool is designed for you to explore the differences through zoomable graphs and computed statistics, but also to listen to the differences.

 

[pkane2001]

21 minutes ago, hopkins said:

 

OK, but what does it tell you? How do you account for differences with the original WAV files - is it the DAC or the ADC that are generating differences ? How do you interpret the significance of differences in terms of SQ?

 

If you  listen to the results, it's even worse because then you are back to simply comparing DACs / systems without knowing how accurate any of them are. 

 

There is no '"reference" against which you can evaluate results.

 

??? The reference is the original file.

 

[pkane2001]

16 minutes ago, hopkins said:

 

I meant when you listen... 

 

 

The original file is the reference. What you listen to is the difference between the two.

 

[pkane2001]

2 minutes ago, hopkins said:

 

The original file can only be listened to through a system... 

 

Let's say you play a music file through a DAC and record it using an ADC. Then you listen to the resulting file, and compare it by listening to the original music file. You are listening through a system, and cannot make any assumptions on any subjective differences (or the lack thereof). 

 

It's probably a fun tool to play with, but I don't see what conclusions you can come to in terms of DAC performance and subjective results. Especially not the ones you  made above (no jitter issue with USB, or no jitter issue with an on-board clock). 

 

Sorry, didn't finish typing the response. You listen to the null/difference file which is the difference between the original and the loopback.

[pkane2001]

Just now, hopkins said:

 

Even worse! You listen to noise (or it's absence). What does that tell you? Nothing really. And anyway you are back to listening to a system. 

 

As I said, this is certainly fun but I don't see how you can come to any conclusions regarding DAC accuracy. 

 

Hmm? It tells you how audible the difference is. If you can't hear it on your system, then the difference is not audible. On your system.

 

[pkane2001]

56 minutes ago, hopkins said:

 

No, you cannot reach any conclusions on DAC accuracy. 

 

Right. Feel free to ignore it then.

[pkane2001]

4 hours ago, semente said:

 

No but how many audiophiles expect that?

Most are willing to have their expectations modelled by the reviews they read, and they're in it for the journey not the destination thus rarely out for a one time buy.

The ASR Church of thought fails on three accounts: audiophiles don't care about budget plastic gear that you buy off Amazon, they enjoy box-swapping (you can call it degustation) and each of us has a particular preference so the idea that we will all enjoy the "sonic presentation" of a pair of all-in-one Genelec or an entry-level DAC is too absurd to take seriously. Cruzades are rarely selfless and the outcome is likely to be a bad one...

 

The first part of this is true, most don't care how or why something works or doesn't. They are willing to swallow the blue pill and ignore reality for the experience, or the journey. That's OK with me, what's not OK are the manufacturers making money off of the ignorance of their consumers, sometimes based on their own ignorance. To continue the analogy, I don't have a problem with people living in the Matrix, I have a problem with the Matrix itself and those who maintain it ;)

 

The second part about ASR is a bit of a straw-man argument.  Maybe you can make that argument against Amir and his crusade, but not about ASR as a community. There are plenty who argue for listening, some who argue against measurements, and some that disagree with the measurements as they are and some who are innovators and come up with new ways and new methods. 

 

What's funny to think about is that the majority of ASR members were subjective audiophiles at some point in their lives and some still are. Many have equipment totalling well over $10k, some over $50k (this is based on a survey). Some enjoy swapping, some enjoy discovering, and others want to tinker. This is no different than any other online community, except, most would like to find out a bit more about what really works and what doesn't and why. Maybe their journey doesn't match yours, but this is no reason to crusade against them. This is really not "us" against "them", although many want it to be positioned that way.

[pkane2001]

Just now, Iving said:

 

If your issue is with "manufacturers making money off of the ignorance of their consumers", why not pick your fight there, instead of being preoccupied with other people's "medication" or their own private "matrix".

 

Your reference to "reality" here is mis-footed. The hobbyist's "experience" and "journey" are legitimate realities.

 

 

The ASR community is not open-minded. Unless you are in tune with the ASR "bench measurement" culture, you will be harried out of that Forum for mere attempted participation - and treated as an object of ridicule before you leave. That Forum has nothing to do with science. The ASR community is exclusive because it is afraid of Science.

 

 

I doubt that the majority of ASR folks are refugees from subjectivism (no matter what they say). Probably many like the belonging aspect, and become "converts" after the fact. I think that what ASR people (who lurk and then stay) have in common is a blend of human personality dispositions. In that respect they aren't much different to folks who flock together at other places. The ghetto is a somewhat regrettable component of human existence.

 

Your view is noted. I don't pick fights, I just share my views and experience.

[pkane2001]

10 minutes ago, Iving said:

Your reference to "reality" here is mis-footed. The hobbyist's "experience" and "journey" are legitimate realities.

 

The irony is that this is posted in the "objective" part of the forum. Reality isn't what you think or believe. The objective approach is to try to learn about the reality despite the limitations of our senses and our biases.

 

Quote

What does objective mean?

In most of its common uses, objective is contrasted with subjective, often as if it’s the opposite. Objective most commonly means not influenced by an individual’s personal viewpoint—unbiased (or at least attempting to be unbiased). It’s often used to describe things like observations, decisions, or reports that are based on an unbiased analysis.

 

Something that’s truly objective has nothing to do with a person’s own feelings or views—it just deals with facts. When someone says “Objectively speaking,” they’re indicating that they’re going to give an unbiased assessment—not one based on their personal preferences.

 

[pkane2001]

Just now, semente said:

All forums have (or had) a few messias trying to save us from ourselves but they're generally not welcome or their efforts recognised. Why not go fight the Matrix?

 

It wouldn't be much of a movie if Neo just decided to enjoy an imaginary steak and didn't go to fight the Matrix, now would it? 😎

[pkane2001]

1 minute ago, semente said:

 

I agree with the bit in bold but not the underlined part.

I am willing to bet that many if not most have not learned a thing but follow the panthers and speaker preference ratings with religious fervour.

 

You might be right about that. But just like everywhere else, you find out quickly who is who and can ignore those who are just there to cause trouble. There's valuable information and some very knowledgeable individuals if you want to learn, but that's just my opinion.

 

I'm also not sure why this diversion into ASR seems to happen on nearly every Objectify thread.  I'm not an ASR representative, and feel this thread, in particular, isn't remotely helped by discussing ASR religion or religious zealots.

 

[pkane2001]

15 minutes ago, semente said:

 

It's just as fictional as fighting the industry in consumer forums.

 

I think you misunderstood me. I expressed my own opinion about the industry. As I said above, I'm not interested in picking a fight. I'm no Neo :)

 

I'm much more interested in educating myself and anyone else who might be interested or curious and by learning from others. Those who are not curious can safely ignore everything I say, it won't hurt me.