Article: Do Immersive Audio Mixes Sound Better?

[The Computer Audiophile]

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[jrobbins50]

Chris, great info.  Could you show also in comparison a traditional SACD-based stereo and multichannel track?  JCR 

[The Computer Audiophile]

27 minutes ago, jrobbins50 said:

Chris, great info.  Could you show also in comparison a traditional SACD-based stereo and multichannel track?  JCR 

Here are the numbers for Wish You Were Here, DSD Stereo, DSD 5.1, and 5.1 PCM 24/96.

 

[ecwl]

Great article. Thanks as always. I forwarded the article to my local dealer, Dennis Penner at American Hi-Fi in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada and he provided the following feedback as he has been playing around with this quite a bit on his store's Lyngdorf demo system:

 

In the process, they have created a problem.

If you have been listening to Atmos at -18 at a high level, you will be blown out of the room when you switch to non-Atmos tracks - many of which are pushed to 0 and higher and are clipped as seen in the article - very annoying. 

The other problem I have noted - not ALL Atmos labelled tracks are at -18 so they come blasting in as well.

Apple needs to make all tracks be submitted at -18 - with 24 bit submissions there is lots dynamic range available so no reason to push the record level to the very top.

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, ecwl said:

Great article. Thanks as always. I forwarded the article to my local dealer, Dennis Penner at American Hi-Fi in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada and he provided the following feedback as he has been playing around with this quite a bit on his store's Lyngdorf demo system:

 

In the process, they have created a problem.

If you have been listening to Atmos at -18 at a high level, you will be blown out of the room when you switch to non-Atmos tracks - many of which are pushed to 0 and higher and are clipped as seen in the article - very annoying. 

The other problem I have noted - not ALL Atmos labelled tracks are at -18 so they come blasting in as well.

Apple needs to make all tracks be submitted at -18 - with 24 bit submissions there is lots dynamic range available so no reason to push the record level to the very top.

Hi @ecwl thanks for the kind words. 

 

I certainly hear what Dennis is saying. It's the age old issue or many recordings being WAY TOO LOUD :~)

 

I haven't found an Apple Music Atmos track yet that isn't at -18, but I don't doubt some have snuck by the gatekeepers. 

[botrytis]

Have you tried any recordings from Dr. Mark Waldrep? He has been doing this for years and believes this is the way music will go.

 

https://www.aixrecords.com/

[The Computer Audiophile]

13 minutes ago, botrytis said:

Have you tried any recordings from Dr. Mark Waldrep? He has been doing this for years and believes this is the way music will go.

 

https://www.aixrecords.com/

I haven't heard @Dr. AIX multichannel stuff in quite a while. Time to take another look. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

@ecwl check this out. Lynyrd Skynyrd's album Pronounced ... contains both Atmos and stereo tracks. The Atmos tracks are -18, the stereo tracks are not. Playing this album as a whole, not only switches between Atmos and stereo, but between loud and normal. Come on Apple!

 

[wisechoice]

Thanks for this! I have found that well-mixed Atmos releases, when rendered in 5.1*, provide much greater detail and depth than stereo mixes, and aside from the touted "immersion," it's just much easier for my ears to focus clearly on the various elements in the mix. This makes critical listening less fatiguing and more enjoyable.

 

NB - Apple recommends enabling Sound Check to balance the overall loudness between tracks, and they specifically recommend this to deal with the difference in loudness between Atmos and stereo mixes. The only problem with that for some of the readers of this website is that HQPlayer's apodizing filters aren't likely to work properly on tracks that have their volume reduced by Sound Check (e.g., if you're using a digital loopback interface to feed HQPlayer from Apple Music). Not a problem for properly engineered material with the Apple Digital Master stamp of approval, but something to bear in mind.

 

It's also worth noting that Atmos can be rendered to quadrophonic surround on the Mac, which can be a much more space- and cost-effective surround solution, and it still sounds very good. It's easy enough to set up in Audio MIDI Setup (AMS) with sound interfaces that have four outputs, or with an aggregate device that combines two stereo outputs. In my experience, it can be good for small spaces with near field speakers. I use this for a secondary listening setup, in my office.

 

*Because I don't have an actual Atmos decoder, I listen to Atmos mixes in 5.1 either via Apple TV (into a DeckLink Recorder with Media Express -> Rogue Amoeba Loopback -> Digiface USB that feeds 3 stereo DACs), or on the Mac under Big Sur, directly out to the Digiface USB. In theory, I could create an aggregate device with more channels in AMS under Monterey, but last I checked, it wasn't actually rendering out from the built-in apps like TV or Music. I actually filed a bug report with Apple about this, but haven't checked recently to see whether it was fixed or not.

[The Computer Audiophile]

16 minutes ago, wisechoice said:

Thanks for this! I have found that well-mixed Atmos releases, when rendered in 5.1*, provide much greater detail and depth than stereo mixes, and aside from the touted "immersion," it's just much easier for my ears to focus clearly on the various elements in the mix. This makes critical listening less fatiguing and more enjoyable.

 

NB - Apple recommends enabling Sound Check to balance the overall loudness between tracks, and they specifically recommend this to deal with the difference in loudness between Atmos and stereo mixes. The only problem with that for some of the readers of this website is that HQPlayer's apodizing filters aren't likely to work properly on tracks that have their volume reduced by Sound Check (e.g., if you're using a digital loopback interface to feed HQPlayer from Apple Music). Not a problem for properly engineered material with the Apple Digital Master stamp of approval, but something to bear in mind.

 

It's also worth noting that Atmos can be rendered to quadrophonic surround on the Mac, which can be a much more space- and cost-effective surround solution, and it still sounds very good. It's easy enough to set up in Audio MIDI Setup (AMS) with sound interfaces that have four outputs, or with an aggregate device that combines two stereo outputs. In my experience, it can be good for small spaces with near field speakers. I use this for a secondary listening setup, in my office.

 

*Because I don't have an actual Atmos decoder, I listen to Atmos mixes in 5.1 either via Apple TV (into a DeckLink Recorder with Media Express -> Rogue Amoeba Loopback -> Digiface USB that feeds 3 stereo DACs), or on the Mac under Big Sur, directly out to the Digiface USB. In theory, I could create an aggregate device with more channels in AMS under Monterey, but last I checked, it wasn't actually rendering out from the built-in apps like TV or Music. I actually filed a bug report with Apple about this, but haven't checked recently to see whether it was fixed or not.

If you create an aggregate device and configure it for 7.1.4, Apple Music will play it perfectly at 7.1.4. 

[wisechoice]

What version of macOS are you running, and on which hardware? I just upgraded to the latest version of Monterey (12.3.1) on my M1 Mini, and now even 5.1 is broken with Apple Music, both directly through the Digiface and via an aggregate device. Neither of the Atmos speaker configurations work, either. However, AppleTV works in 5.1 (but not 5.1.4 or 7.1.4). I wonder whether this is a bug that was introduced with the new native Apple Music application. All programs can output to 5.1 for me, but no higher, under Big Sur.

[El Guapo]

22 minutes ago, wisechoice said:

5.1 is broken with Apple Music, both directly through the Digiface and via an aggregate device.

I saw RME has an update for Digiface USB, worth a try? (2022 04 04)

[wisechoice]

Thanks, I didn't notice that. I will give it a try, although I will note that the same behaviour is exhibited with an aggregate device consisting of the built-in speakers and my display speakers. And surround works as expected (for 5.1) with the TV app, including with the Digiface USB. So it seems pretty likely that this is a bug in the Music app (and in all the built-in consumer apps when it comes to anything above 5.1).

[wisechoice]

Actually, the firmware for Digiface USB contained in that update isn't new, it's version 18, which I have already. It was a good thought, though!

[El Guapo]

6 minutes ago, wisechoice said:

And surround works as expected (for 5.1) with the TV app, including with the Digiface USB.

Curious about your settings of Audio MIDI Setup, would you post the screenshot of the aggregate device? 

[wisechoice]

3 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

Curious about your settings of Audio MIDI Setup, would you post the screenshot of the aggregate device? 

Sure, here's the quadrophonic setup. There's an additional bug in AMS, where channel 3 is mislabelled channel 1 in the pop-up menu. Buggy buggy!

[El Guapo]

15 minutes ago, wisechoice said:

an additional bug in AMS, where channel 3 is mislabelled channel 1 in the pop-up menu

It's not mislabeled (also not a bug). You (or someone) put "1" into ch3 so the label becomes 1.😆

You can edit the channel label as you like.

[wisechoice]

I most definitely didn't put it there. It was a fresh install of the OS. And you'll notice at the top of the window, "Stream 2 has 2 channels (3-4)" 🤔

[wisechoice]

But you're right that it uses those labels for the selection in the pop-up menu, and in principle they can be edited. Though depending on the order the devices are added, I'm finding that sometimes one or two channels can't be re-labelled on these devices. It's a bit random.

[wisechoice]

But I didn't even know they could be edited, so it definitely wasn't me. And the same pre-filled label for that channel, and that channel alone, was there when I booted back into Big Sur. Definitely a bug of some kind. I appreciate knowing about the labels, though! Thanks :-)

[El Guapo]

@wisechoiceHere's what I found: if you want to use Quadraphonic, CoreAudio default is ch1, 2, 5 and 6. You can't change this in AMS (AMS is just an organizer). If you connect 2 DACs and want to set as Quadraphonic, you'll prob never hear sound comes out from the DAC which designated to ch3 and 4.

In this case, I'd suggest using Loopback to route the channel to the correct output.

[wisechoice]

OK, I think I finally cracked the case. Dolby Atmos now has to be set to "automatic" instead of "always on" in Music. Then I'm able to get more than six channels from the Music app to either the Digiface or Blackhole 16ch. Not very logical, and not how it used to behave!

 

As for quadrophonic, it always worked for me with an aggregate device, or equally to a four channel sound interface. And it seems to work with the same aggregate device, now that I've changed the setting to automatic.

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, wisechoice said:

OK, I think I finally cracked the case. Dolby Atmos now has to be set to "automatic" instead of "always on" in Music. Then I'm able to get more than six channels from the Music app to either the Digiface or Blackhole 16ch. Not very logical, and not how it used to behave!

 

As for quadrophonic, it always worked for me with an aggregate device, or equally to a four channel sound interface. And it seems to work with the same aggregate device, now that I've changed the setting to automatic.

Oh yes, I went down that path of Always On and Automatic as well. @El Guapo saved me from pulling my hair out on that one. 

[bbosler]

12 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

saved me from pulling my hair out on that one. 

 

sorry, that ship has sailed for both of us

[The Computer Audiophile]

5 minutes ago, bbosler said:

 

sorry, that ship has sailed for both of us

Too funny!