Building NAA for HQplayer

[LewinskiH01]

18 hours ago, bogi said:

Chap. 10.1 of manual, which is installed together with application.

Thanks for the tip!

I searched for %LOCALAPPDATA%\HQPlayer on Windows File Explorer but it did not return a hit...what could it be?

[bogi]

Logging has to be enabled in HQPlayer Desktop as written in manual.
Then paste the string %LOCALAPPDATA%\HQPlayer in Windows Explorer like on the picture and press <Enter>

 

On Win10, Win11 %LOCALAPPDATA%\HQPlayer is usually C:\Users\<YourLoginName>\AppData\Local\HQPlayer
On very very old Windows %LOCALAPPDATA% was some other location.

[Miska]

On 7/14/2023 at 5:47 AM, LewinskiH01 said:

so it's the NAA that is not found.

 

Your HQPlayer computer has only one network interface active? And firewall is not blocking traffic between HQPlayer and NAA?

 

[LewinskiH01]

20 hours ago, bogi said:

Logging has to be enabled in HQPlayer Desktop as written in manual.
Then paste the string %LOCALAPPDATA%\HQPlayer in Windows Explorer like on the picture and press <Enter>

 

On Win10, Win11 %LOCALAPPDATA%\HQPlayer is usually C:\Users\<YourLoginName>\AppData\Local\HQPlayer
On very very old Windows %LOCALAPPDATA% was some other location.

Thank you for the continued help. Unfortunately I was already doing that and %LOCALAPPDATA%\HQPlayer is returning no hits. FWIW it´s a Win 10 PC. I find the \AppData\Local\HQPlayer folder, but the instruction returns no findings. Same if I run it starting on C: root directory. 

Log file is enabled in HQPlayer Settings.

[LewinskiH01]

2 hours ago, Miska said:

 

Your HQPlayer computer has only one network interface active? And firewall is not blocking traffic between HQPlayer and NAA?

 

Thank you.

The PC has one one active network interface (just on cable; no wifi).

I do have AVG running on the HQPlayer computer. How do I check if it´s blocking traffic with NAA, or how do I tell it not to block it?

[Miska]

4 minutes ago, LewinskiH01 said:

Thank you for the continued help. Unfortunately I was already doing that and %LOCALAPPDATA%\HQPlayer is returning no hits. FWIW it´s a Win 10 PC. I find the \AppData\Local\HQPlayer folder, but the instruction returns no findings. Same if I run it starting on C: root directory. 

Log file is enabled in HQPlayer Settings.

 

Not in search, but in the path entry (similar to browser's address entry bar). There is at least settings.xml, likely also library.xml if you ever scanned the library. And HQPlayer5Desktop.log if you have log file enabled in HQPlayer settings.

 

[Miska]

3 minutes ago, LewinskiH01 said:

I do have AVG running on the HQPlayer computer. How do I check if it´s blocking traffic with NAA, or how do I tell it not to block it?

 

At least connection type for the ethernet is "Private network" and Windows firewall is disabled for private networks? I don't know about AVG specifically.

 

[LewinskiH01]

1 hour ago, Miska said:

 

Not in search, but in the path entry (similar to browser's address entry bar). There is at least settings.xml, likely also library.xml if you ever scanned the library. And HQPlayer5Desktop.log if you have log file enabled in HQPlayer settings.

 

Thank you!

Now I have it. It´s seeing it:

2023/07/15 23:04:44 NAA output connect to 192.168.100.37:43210 [ipv4]
  2023/07/15 23:04:44 NAA output network endpoint: Lynx Hilo: USB Audio (hw:CARD=Hilo,DEV=0)
  2023/07/15 23:04:44 NAA output network endpoint: HDA Intel PCH: 92HD93BXX Analog (hw:CARD=PCH,DEV=0)
  2023/07/15 23:04:44 NAA output discovered 1 Network Audio Adapters
? 2023/07/15 23:04:44 NAA output adapter '' not found
  2023/07/15 23:04:45 NAA output network Audio IPv6 support disabled
  2023/07/15 23:04:45 NAA output discovery from 0.0.0.0
& 2023/07/15 23:04:45 NAA output discovered network audio: name='naa-563f1662' version='Signalyst Network Audio Daemon 4.4.0'  @192.168.100.37:43210
& 2023/07/15 23:04:45 NAA output discovered network audio: name='naa-563f1662' version='Signalyst Network Audio Daemon 4.4.0'  @192.168.100.37:43210
 

Must be the firewall.

[LewinskiH01]

1 hour ago, Miska said:

 

At least connection type for the ethernet is "Private network" and Windows firewall is disabled for private networks? I don't know about AVG specifically.

 

Must be something here.

Ethernet is indeed set as private network.

When I open Firewall & network protection, I see private network with the green checkmark (I guess indicating it´s protected). However the options below, including "allow an app through firewall" are greyed so I can´t change them.

 

BTW, which is the app I should let through the firewall: HQplayer or the NAA - if the NAA, what is the name of the app?

[bogi]

@LewinskiH01Your NAA is found, I think you don't need to care about firewall. At least I never needed to do anything HQPlayer specific in Windows firewall. What is not found is your DAC through NAA.

You showed that 'aplay -l' lists your Lynx Hilo.

You also posted screenshot where NAA did not see your Hilo. Was Hilo connected and turned on that time?

[Miska]

6 hours ago, LewinskiH01 said:

Now I have it. It´s seeing it:

2023/07/15 23:04:44 NAA output connect to 192.168.100.37:43210 [ipv4]
  2023/07/15 23:04:44 NAA output network endpoint: Lynx Hilo: USB Audio (hw:CARD=Hilo,DEV=0)
  2023/07/15 23:04:44 NAA output network endpoint: HDA Intel PCH: 92HD93BXX Analog (hw:CARD=PCH,DEV=0)
  2023/07/15 23:04:44 NAA output discovered 1 Network Audio Adapters

 

OK, so it should get listed as "naa-563f1662:Hilo" on the device list in HQPlayer.

 

[LewinskiH01]

3 hours ago, Miska said:

 

OK, so it should get listed as "naa-563f1662:Hilo" on the device list in HQPlayer.

 

@bogi

OK, I found it. Problem was on settings Input! I wrote the answer to explain I still wasn't finding the NAA and just by chance tried this and worked. I keep tge original answer and edit the end:

 

To avoid doubts I just did the process complete:

1) turned on Hilo and booted the NAA laptop and see this screen:

Hilo is seen by NAA.

 

I left both on and booted the HQPlayer Win 10 PC.

Here's the log file:

HQPlayer sees NAA and Hilo attached to it.

However on HQP>Settinds>Output I don't get naa-563f1662 (or anything else):

 

my understanding is the drop down menu under device should show naa-563f1662 when I clicked on the right arrow. But doesn't...

 

Then I tried changing Settings>Input>Backend. For some reason I had it set to ASIO (somehow assuming this was needed to receive the stream from Roon). I switched it to "none" and the NAA appeared on the Output>Backend>device.

 

Great!! Thank you!!!

 

Now I need to figure out how to tell Roon to stream to HQPlayer.

 

Thanks again!!

[bogi]

33 minutes ago, LewinskiH01 said:

Then I tried changing Settings>Input>Backend. For some reason I had it set to ASIO (somehow assuming this was needed to receive the stream from Roon). I switched it to "none" and the NAA appeared on the Output>Backend>device.

 

That does not bring me sense. The same local backend (ASIO, WASAPI) cannot be set for both input and output but if NAA is used it is not relevant.

 

Maybe you previously set NAA as input transport instead of output transport. Or you set your NAA as both input and output transports. Couldn't that happen?

 

Roon connects to HQPlayer in a specific way using network protocol so the input backend setting is not relevant.

[LewinskiH01]

3 hours ago, bogi said:

 

That does not bring me sense. The same local backend (ASIO, WASAPI) cannot be set for both input and output but if NAA is used it is not relevant.

 

Maybe you previously set NAA as input transport instead of output transport. Or you set your NAA as both input and output transports. Couldn't that happen?

 

Roon connects to HQPlayer in a specific way using network protocol so the input backend setting is not relevant.

No, input was set to ASIO and output set to NAA and didn't show the NAA as an available device.

Now I have Roon streaming to HQP streaming to NAA. Next is figuring out the convolution for the 4-way active. Getting there. 

Thank you!

[LewinskiH01]

I was able to get this working, and the sound is pretty good despite using as NAA an old laptop with it's spinning HDD, fan, switching power supply. I am convolving into 8 channels for stereo 4-way active system, upsampling to 176 or 192 kHz. I am using NS9 dither and poly-sinc-mp for 1x and Nx filters and the PC is barely running at 10% CPU load - without CUDA offloading, so there is plenty of headroom here. I listen to mostly rock, blues, but also acoustic music. Are there more demanding, generally better filters/noise shaping that I should be trying?

 

More onto the NAA aspect, and the options I think I have: I´m needing the "audiophile" PC connected to the DAC to run Acourate for measurements and filter generation and to run JRiver for watching movies while convolving audio and sending to the DAC. Ideal world would be having the option to boot this PC like I'm doing with the laptop, so I can opt for it as NAA or as PC for Acourate/JRiver. But this doesn't seem to be an option.

 

Best NAA seems to be a a Ultrarendu/Opticalrendu, but it would demand switching the USB cable from the DAC to either Rendu or PC depending on use - a bit cumbersome.

 

Another option is buying a new NUC to replace the audiophile PC and have the NUC boot as NAA or PC.

 

Finally, I have had an eye on a Merging Hapi for a while as replacement for the Hilo. Hapi is an ethernet-based card. Does a NAA make sense in the case of a Hapi?

 

Thoughts would be very welcomed.

[Miska]

1 hour ago, LewinskiH01 said:

Finally, I have had an eye on a Merging Hapi for a while as replacement for the Hilo. Hapi is an ethernet-based card. Does a NAA make sense in the case of a Hapi?

 

Only case where I could think NAA + RAVENNA combination would make sense is if you want to use WiFi between HQPlayer and the DAC. RAVENNA won't work over WiFi, while NAA does.

 

[LewinskiH01]

2 hours ago, Miska said:

 

Only case where I could think NAA + RAVENNA combination would make sense is if you want to use WiFi between HQPlayer and the DAC. RAVENNA won't work over WiFi, while NAA does.

 

Got it. 

Which of these setups would you expect (or know) to provide the best sound?

1. General purpose PC running HQP and streaming over ethernet/Ravenna to Hapi
2. "Audiophile PC" (passive cooling, SSD, linear power supply, etc) running HQP and streaming over second ethernet port to Hapi
3. General purpose PC running HQP streaming to a NAA (NUC/Ultrarendu) streaming over USB to an exaSound s88

The time might be ripe for deciding the DAC path, which might also imply deciding on the NAA path.

[Miska]

12 minutes ago, LewinskiH01 said:

Got it. 

Which of these setups would you expect (or know) to provide the best sound?

1. General purpose PC running HQP and streaming over ethernet/Ravenna to Hapi
2. "Audiophile PC" (passive cooling, SSD, linear power supply, etc) running HQP and streaming over second ethernet port to Hapi
3. General purpose PC running HQP streaming to a NAA (NUC/Ultrarendu) streaming over USB to an exaSound s88

The time might be ripe for deciding the DAC path, which might also imply deciding on the NAA path.

 

(1) is better since it is more cost efficient and at least as good as (2), not limited by constraints of (2).

 

In (3) the external NAA is not necessary and is not even going to work. And s88 has built-in NAA already which is the best option with it.

 

[LewinskiH01]

2 hours ago, Miska said:

 

(1) is better since it is more cost efficient and at least as good as (2), not limited by constraints of (2).

 

In (3) the external NAA is not necessary and is not even going to work. And s88 has built-in NAA already which is the best option with it.

 

Thank you!

I had not realized the s88 included a NAA. Upon looking at the pictures I see it even says NAA in the back! 😳

 

So buying a NAA would not make sense in neither case. So I will set something up with what I have.

 

Indeed the s88 is more expensive than the Hapi. Would you expect the s88 with built-in NAA to sound better than Hapi, both thru the same ethernet?

[Miska]

1 minute ago, LewinskiH01 said:

Indeed the s88 is more expensive than the Hapi. Would you expect the s88 with built-in NAA to sound better than Hapi, both thru the same ethernet?

 

I don't have s88, so I don't know how it sounds. But it is very likely easier to setup than Hapi through RAVENNA.

 

Are you sure s88 is more expensive than Hapi with DA8PRO card?

 

[LewinskiH01]

20 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

I don't have s88, so I don't know how it sounds. But it is very likely easier to setup than Hapi through RAVENNA.

 

Are you sure s88 is more expensive than Hapi with DA8PRO card?

 

I have not asked for firm quotes, but searching online:

s88 is USD7.6k from their online store.

at Vintage King US: USD2.7k for Hapi +USD2.9k ADA8P. I look for ADA since I need measurement capability for Acourate (which would need to be solved otherwise with s88). The DA8PRO card you mentioned must be what they list as DA8P, which is the version that can do DSD.

 

Do you think Hapi is surpassed in sound by other DACs of similar price with NAA?

[Miska]

13 hours ago, LewinskiH01 said:

The DA8PRO card you mentioned must be what they list as DA8P, which is the version that can do DSD.

 

Yes, that's the one. The Hapi I have has AD8P and DA8P cards.

 

13 hours ago, LewinskiH01 said:

Do you think Hapi is surpassed in sound by other DACs of similar price with NAA?

 

Sound is so much personal that I don't want to rate DACs in any particular order from that perspective. And I have not heard s88.

 

[LewinskiH01]

On 7/10/2023 at 8:24 AM, bogi said:

To use NAA you either a) boot a computer from NAA image or HQPlayer OS image, or b) you install NAA (networkaudiod) separately on a computer where you have root (admin) access.

Back to trying to use my passively cooled Xeon + Intel S1200 mobo as NAA. NAA image from USB stick won't startup despite the machine being 64-bit and UEFI enabled on BIOS (option a. above).

 

Might option b) work?

Or should I try the DietPi installation on a USB drive or SSD?

 

@Miska

I completely agree/understand the personal taste aspect in assessing audio! Getting a Hapi will take a while so want to explore a good shot at a NAA that is better than an old laptop without spending $1k on an Ultrarendu.

[Miska]

3 minutes ago, LewinskiH01 said:

Back to trying to use my passively cooled Xeon + Intel S1200 mobo as NAA. NAA image from USB stick won't startup despite the machine being 64-bit and UEFI enabled on BIOS (option a. above).

 

And secure boot is disabled?

 

But that is pretty huge thing for a NAA. Something like RPi4 in a steel case would work fine.

 

3 minutes ago, LewinskiH01 said:

Might option b) work?

Or should I try the DietPi installation on a USB drive or SSD?

 

You could try Ubuntu Server 22.04 LTS minimal install, or Fedora 37 Server minimal install.

 

[proulxarts]

2 hours ago, LewinskiH01 said:

Back to trying to use my passively cooled Xeon + Intel S1200 mobo as NAA. NAA image from USB stick won't startup despite the machine being 64-bit and UEFI enabled on BIOS (option a. above).

 

Might option b) work?

Or should I try the DietPi installation on a USB drive or SSD?

I had this issue and previously mentioned here that DietPi was working well for me. But on next boot it didn’t.  I just went ahead and purchased GentooPlayer.  I’ve used it for years on my other system. It’s been rock solid.