Building NAA for HQplayer

[dekipeki]

On 4/17/2023 at 10:37 PM, Miska said:

 

The DAC in question has ASIO driver? If not, you need to change networkaudiod's backend to WASAPI by modifying the startup .bat

 

Either computer has more than one network interface enabled? Please see Control Panel -> Network -> Manage Network Interfaces

 

Also check that network type for both machines is "internal network" instead of "public network". Otherwise firewall would be blocking traffic.

 

 

Typically NAA is a low power device without anything else running than NAA. I would run Roon on the same machine as HQPlayer rather than on the same machine with NAA.

 

You could just try NAA OS and/or HQPlayer OS on your NAA machine first, without moving any Roon things just to see if it works that way or not.

 

I just tried the NAA boot image. I used the x64-ramfs latest image.

 

First I had to disable secure boot to be able to boot from the usb media.

 

Then the boot from the flash drive seemed like it was successful but stopped at a login request

(1st image beelow)

 

When turning the dac on or off nothing happened on the screen (it stayed on login) but I was able to see the naa on the other computer in the "Output Devices Settings" screen when selecting the NetworkAudioAdapter backend setup but it was not referenced as usb port, ... so I dont know if that would work ?

 

When I tried booting the flash drive on another machine, it seemed more successfull because when I turned my dac on and off the system reacted immediately notifying me the dac was connected and disconnected (2nd image beelow)

 

What could be the problem on the first machine ? (An elitedesk HP usff) while the successfull one is an Intel NUC 11

 

Thanx

 

Deki

 

[dekipeki]

In the meantime I solved my problems thanks to your help. In fact when I booted the naa image the usb was disconnected so it was normal that there would be no connexion. After correctly connecting the usb cable, I was able to play to the NAA usb connexion from the more powerfull pc to the naa. 

 

Of course that wasn't without problems of its own , as I am experiencing pauses in the music but I imagine it is a network issue... I will try to solve it later ...

 

Now I have migrated my roon library to the most powerfull pc and it works flawlessly in pair with hqplayer or in standalone. I can play directly from Roon directly to my dac or through hqplayer to my dac.

 

I also installed Bridge on the Old machine in case I want to play music without hqplayer ...

 

Thank you very much for taking time for answering my questions ! :-)

 

I was wondering if there could be a gain by flashing the naa image on a usb 3 flash drive rather than on a usb 2 one (as I did) ? 

[Miska]

12 hours ago, dekipeki said:

Then the boot from the flash drive seemed like it was successful but stopped at a login request

(1st image beelow)

 

That's how it is supposed to be. When it ends up there,  it is ready for use. I don't even have any displays connected to my NAAs.

 

12 hours ago, dekipeki said:

When turning the dac on or off nothing happened on the screen (it stayed on login) but I was able to see the naa on the other computer in the "Output Devices Settings" screen when selecting the NetworkAudioAdapter backend setup but it was not referenced as usb port, ... so I dont know if that would work ?

 

There is usually no extra messages, it just sits on the login prompt, with NAA service running in the background along with few other OS services.

 

Most of those messages are related to the onboard audio in NUC.

 

12 hours ago, dekipeki said:

What could be the problem on the first machine ? (An elitedesk HP usff) while the successfull one is an Intel NUC 11

 

All seem good to me, on both.

 

[Miska]

2 hours ago, dekipeki said:

I was wondering if there could be a gain by flashing the naa image on a usb 3 flash drive rather than on a usb 2 one (as I did) ? 

 

It will only have some effect on the time it takes to boot up the system. So with a fast USB3 drive, you may be able to get something like 1 - 2 seconds off.

 

If you want to optimize, use USB stick that has metal cover. For lowest noise boot up storage, use microSD card and a small USB microSD adapter, preferably a metal case one.

 

[dekipeki]

Thank you for the insight I just ordered those a sandisk 32gb extreme pro and a digitus card reader with aluminium casing :-)

 

I will share my experience with those !

 

What could be the reason for the repeated pauses while listening on the naa side ? (obviously some network related stuff) what should I look for to troubleshoot and improve that ? 

[cpcat]

I tried this for about 6 hours yesterday and couldn’t get it to work.  I am using hqpe on Ubuntu 22.04 with fitlet 2 as NAA on my home network.  I tried both ramfs and x64 images, 4.4 and 4.31, (balenaetcher on multiple usb sticks, both booted fine, could see “NAA” on my router GUI (netgear).  I had the ufw firewall disabled on the Ubuntu PC, rebooted/repowered multiple times including DAC, Ubuntu PC and the router.  I couldn’t think if anything else to try so gave up.  Hqpe would look for NAA but always came up with zero on the log file, DAC would never appear.

 

I am using power line adapters (netgear) on my network and maybe that is the problem.  I don’t have any managed switches, just unmanaged and a switch is between the Fitlet2  and the power line adapter, another switch, then another power line adapter, then my router downstairs where the Ubuntu/hqpe PC is.

 

I reverted back to SnakeoilOS on the fitlet2 (small audio program, Ubuntu based, that includes HqplayerNAA) and now everything just works again.

 

So this could be an optional workaround I guess for someone out there if they run into trouble with the naaOS image running/appearing on their network.

[stefano_mbp]

19 minutes ago, cpcat said:

So this could be an optional workaround I guess for someone out there if they run into trouble with the naaOS image running/appearing on their network.

Fitlet has 2 Ethernet ports but NAA OS can manage just one.

The “workaround” it to use HQPlayer OS instead that runs NAA too.

Once booted you can stop and disable hqplayerd and NAA will run without problems, this is possible as HQPe OS can mangage two Ethernet ports

[cpcat]

Good to know maybe I will try again at some point with HqpeOS.  I actually did consider trying that- but didn’t as was not aware of the 2 Ethernet port issue.

[cpcat]

 

 

I wonder if there is a way to disable one of the fitlet Ethernet ports 🤔 

[stefano_mbp]

10 minutes ago, cpcat said:

 

 

I wonder if there is a way to disable one of the fitlet Ethernet ports 🤔 

Maybe in bios

[cpcat]

 

[cpcat]

I guess either eth0 or eth1 needs to be disabled.  
 

Sounds pretty darn good right now though 😊 

[Miska]

14 hours ago, dekipeki said:

What could be the reason for the repeated pauses while listening on the naa side ? (obviously some network related stuff) what should I look for to troubleshoot and improve that ? 

 

Depends on the NAA, but one possible cause is that 802.3x Flow Control has not become active. Having more information about the network setup would help figuring out possible reasons.

 

[dekipeki]

Hello Miska ! Here is my network config ...

[Miska]

On 4/21/2023 at 1:01 PM, dekipeki said:

Hello Miska ! Here is my network config ...

 

This is pretty straightforward and should work fine as such.

 

Are the dropouts frequent/systematic? Or more randomly spaced? How frequent?

 

WiFi can be unpredictable at times, especially depending on nearby neighbourhood. But then there can be other aspects as well in high speed network, such as as flow control issues.

 

It is also beneficial to check through locally connected DAC with the same settings, that speed of the HQPlayer computer is not the limiting factor. Other tasks (such as Roon), running on the same machine as HQPlayer can also make a difference.

 

[cpcat]

So I was able to disable one Ethernet port  in bios on the Fitlet2.  NAA OS now works.  Thanks Stefano!

[dericchan1]

39 minutes ago, cpcat said:

So I was able to disable one Ethernet port  in bios on the Fitlet2.  NAA OS now works.  Thanks Stefano!

Can you please advise how did you manage to disable to port in bios?

 

thanks

 

Deric

[cpcat]

1 hour ago, dericchan1 said:

Can you please advise how did you manage to disable to port in bios?

 

thanks

 

Deric

Here are instructions:

 

For me, disabling #4 port worked and left the physical port on the farthest edge of the chassis enabled.

[dekipeki]

On 4/23/2023 at 12:36 AM, Miska said:

 

This is pretty straightforward and should work fine as such.

 

Are the dropouts frequent/systematic? Or more randomly spaced? How frequent?

 

WiFi can be unpredictable at times, especially depending on nearby neighbourhood. But then there can be other aspects as well in high speed network, such as as flow control issues.

 

It is also beneficial to check through locally connected DAC with the same settings, that speed of the HQPlayer computer is not the limiting factor. Other tasks (such as Roon), running on the same machine as HQPlayer can also make a difference.

 

 

Thank you Miska ! :-)

 

The phenomenon I experience is the following, when playing a song from Room2 and listening with NAA usb stick in Room 3 where my dac is, from time to time but like 2-3 times in a song the playback stops lets'say at 1:03 and there is no sound for 3 seconds and then the song starts again at 1:06, it is to say like the song is conituously playing but I can't hear it for 3 seconds in Room 3.

 

This happens on songs that are on the SDD in "Room 2" and when playing thru hqplayer (I use android hqplayerd control app v4) or playing thru Roon content that is on qobuz. By the way, It is such a pitty that the hqplayer app doesn't allow Qobuz access, in that case I wouldn't need Roon. In fact I mostly use Roon because it is simple to integrate Parmetric Eq's for my different headphones.

 

The situation was better when I inserted a router that has flow control enabled (the famous buffalo BS GS2008)

I also ried to play with the buffer time in hqplayer settings, putting it too high a value (250ms) had not the desired effect on the contrary, 100ms looked like the safest bet...

 

Another thing that I experienced is when I installed a VPN software I was not able anymore to see the NAA in "Room 3" from hqplayer in Room 2- The VPN software wasn't active but it was running in the background. After uninstalling it I could see the NAA again ...

 

Well in the meantime I had also installed a torrenting app (popcorn time) and uninstalled it too, so I dont know which one of those solved the problem, but I have read that it was known that VPN software could affect NAA access ? Maybe I will try installing one after another to check wich one of those is the culprist.

 

Have a nice day enjoying good music ! :-)

 

Deki

[cpcat]

Low level background static/cracks/ pops/tics on NAA -only when converting to 256 DSD.  It is more noticeable with 256x48 (hires pcm), during quiet passages, and when paused.

 

Running HQPE on Ubuntu 22.04 LTS minimal server currently over upnp with Daphile/LMS.  It also occurred similarly with Ubuntu minimal desktop,  and also with using HQPDcontrol and local library.  CPU is AMD 5800u, ASUS PN51-S1 in Akasa fanless case.  CPU temps run around 50 C.  DAC is Lampizator Big7 MKII with JLSounds USB board.  I have Netgear router, Netgear unmanaged switches, and Netgear power line adapters on my network.

 

Have NAA image on a fitlet2.  Have tried both regular and ramfs versions and they are the same with regards to above.  This occurs on 256 DSD conversion only, independent of filter, have background noise as described and ONLY on left channel.

 

It also happens with SnakeoilOS loaded on fitlet2 which also includes HQPlayerNAA.

 

It goes away with any other setting (512,128, PCM, source, etc.)

 

It goes away with DSD direct 256.

 

It goes away completely when attaching PC directly to DAC and utilizing ALSA.

 

I am using 48k DSD and auto rate family checked with max bitrate 12.288 mhz.

 

Any ideas?

[bogi]

@cpcatIf DSD256 stream is not corrupted then (from digital signal point of view) NAA cannot distinguish if your DSD256 stream originated as direct DSD256 or if it is result of upsampling in HQPlayer.

 

Did you try some light HQPlayer filter and modulator, if the static/cracks/ pops/tics will occur? For example poly-sinc-short-2s and DSD5 modulator? It could answer if the behavior you described depends on how heavy HQPlayer processing is. It looks to me that your computer outputs corrupted network stream in the case of upsampled DSD256. Or your computer is source of very specific noise or data transfer timing inaccuracy which causes errors in downstream equipment, but only in case of upsampled DSD256. I know, yet more crazy. :D

Only for comparison test, do you have a chance to try some other computer capable of DSD256/HQPlayer? Something with at least 4 cores and 3 GHz turbo could be enough. Even a notebook.

 

When you tested directly connected DAC to HQPlayer computer did you use the same USB cable (and other possible treatment) as with your NAAs?

 

Are you using wired or wireless LAN? Did you try any change in your network setup?

 

I know  my explanation attempt looks crazy. I am looking forward to other explanations.

[cpcat]

1 hour ago, bogi said:

@cpcatIf DSD256 stream is not corrupted then (from digital signal point of view) NAA cannot distinguish if your DSD256 stream originated as direct DSD256 or if it is result of upsampling in HQPlayer.

 

Did you try some light HQPlayer filter and modulator, if the static/cracks/ pops/tics will occur? For example poly-sinc-short-2s and DSD5 modulator? It could answer if the behavior you described depends on how heavy HQPlayer processing is. It looks to me that your computer outputs corrupted network stream in the case of upsampled DSD256. Or your computer is source of very specific noise or data transfer timing inaccuracy which causes errors in downstream equipment, but only in case of upsampled DSD256. I know, yet more crazy. :D

 

I can’t say I have tried every one, but from up and down the list including -2s.     

Only for comparison test, do you have a chance to try some other computer capable of DSD256/HQPlayer? Something with at least 4 cores and 3 GHz turbo could be enough. Even a notebook.

 

No, It’s not easy to do this with embedded, guess I could try with HQPE OS though.  Thanks for the suggestion.  

 

1 hour ago, bogi said:

 

When you tested directly connected DAC to HQPlayer computer did you use the same USB cable (and other possible treatment) as with your NAAs?

Yes-just a standard one, not fancy.

1 hour ago, bogi said:

 

Are you using wired or wireless LAN? Did you try any change in your network setup?

Wired and no change, although I did try moving the HQPe PC to another location-no difference.

1 hour ago, bogi said:

 

I know  my explanation attempt looks crazy. I am looking forward to other explanations.

Thanks for the help-I am still working on this.  I will try the other usb ports on the fitlet2 next, didn’t think to try that yet.

[Miska]

7 hours ago, dekipeki said:

By the way, It is such a pitty that the hqplayer app doesn't allow Qobuz access, in that case I wouldn't need Roon. In fact I mostly use Roon because it is simple to integrate Parmetric Eq's for my different headphones.

 

What do you mean? HQPlayer does support Qobuz natively.

 

7 hours ago, dekipeki said:

The situation was better when I inserted a router that has flow control enabled (the famous buffalo BS GS2008)

 

Yes, having proper 802.3x flow control is pretty much mandatory. Otherwise there is too much packet loss and resends.

 

7 hours ago, dekipeki said:

I also ried to play with the buffer time in hqplayer settings, putting it too high a value (250ms) had not the desired effect on the contrary, 100ms looked like the safest bet...

 

You should normally leave it default. If the network is  challenging, using lower values like 10 ms may help.

 

7 hours ago, dekipeki said:

Another thing that I experienced is when I installed a VPN software I was not able anymore to see the NAA in "Room 3" from hqplayer in Room 2- The VPN software wasn't active but it was running in the background. After uninstalling it I could see the NAA again ...

 

Yes, that is quite usual, as the VPN has default route or higher priority (lower metric) and discovery multicasts end up there instead of local network.

 

[Miska]

6 hours ago, cpcat said:

Any ideas?

 

Sounds like USB packet loss or similar issue between the source and the DAC.

 

USB packet contains 125 microseconds of data, having such packet lost results in sounds like dust particles on vinyl.

 

If clocking goes out of sync, then you have typically static overlay with the music. But it can also happen due to data loss.

 

[cpcat]

Thanks Miska- will try other usb ports (even usb 2.0 should work right?) on the naa pc.  I have other power line adapters I could try too.  Unfortunately, I don’t have a direct Ethernet connection to the DAC location without a power line adapter.  
 

I thought about running a long Ethernet cable directly to the router downstairs just for troubleshooting-could pay someone to run a line if that fixes it.

 

Since my HQPe PC is fanless and fairly compact, the other option is to just move it to the DAC.