Recommendations for a network streamer for my system playing Tidal Masters

[LawrenceT]

I am looking for a high-end network streamer possibly with a built-in DAC to add to my audio system primarily to play Tidal Master (MQA) (vs. Qobuz not available in Canada), as I finally want to get away from using CDs.  I am not intending on ripping my old CDs or running a NAS necessarily. 

 

 

My system is from 2005 and includes:

emmlabs CDSD (CD/SACD) transport

emmlabs DCC2  DAC/preamp

Lamm M1.2 monoblock amps

 Kharma Midi-Grand céramique 3-way speakers

 

Ultimately I am looking for a network streamer that will be able to play Tidal Masters (not necessarily MQA) with a natural and musical sound quality that will complement the type of components I have. 

 

First, I was wondering about just a network streamer and optically connecting to DCC2 as my DAC/preamp but worry that some of the current DACs within network streamer players may produce a better result for streaming than using my DCC2.  I was wondering using the emmlabs NS-1 and connecting optically to the DCC2, but don't know how that well that would work.  Alternatively, using the simaudio MiND2 streamer and optically connect to my DCC2, as a signifcantly cheaper alternative to the NS-1..

 

Alternatively, going with a network streamer/DAC player I want to keep my budget at below $10K.  I live in a smaller city and don't have many stereo stores to audition equipment and with pandemic it is tough to travel to audition.  Therefore, I am going to have to go without audition most likely.    Based on reading I am thinking about things like:  

 

simaudio moon 390;

auralic Altair G1

Auralic Vega G1 (or possibly G2.1)

esoteric N-05

aurender A10

Lumin T2

Mytek Brooklyn Bridge

 

Thanks for your help.

[davide256]

If I didn't have the money already invested in a solution, the off the shelf unit I would buy would be an Innuos Zen Mk III. The rooms I heard it used in at CAF 2019

were the rooms where I could actually settle in and enjoy listening to digital source for extended listening.  In your price range is the Zenith Mk III at $4249, I have

not heard it but Innuos are exceptional engineers so I'm sure its worthy of your system.

[left channel]

2 hours ago, LawrenceT said:

Based on reading I am thinking about things like:  

 

simaudio moon 390;

auralic Altair G1

Auralic Vega G1 (or possibly G2.1)

esoteric N-05

aurender A10

Lumin T2

Mytek Brooklyn Bridge

 

Those are extremely different designs. Not just in streaming features, but also in the way they sound. For example, the Aurender A10 is designed around dual AKM DAC chips, while the Mytek Brooklyn is designed around an ESS DAC chip. When DAC hardware developers follow the design guidelines of those chip brands, an AKM-based DAC may have a warmer, smoother sound, while an ESS-based DAC may have a crisper, neutral sound. I prefer AKM and find ESS harsh and shrill, while others find ESS clear, stimulating, and essential to their enjoyment, and I'm sure there are many other subjective ways of describing these differences. If they will sound different to you, then they will have a large effect on your enjoyment of your system. Have fun exploring.

[LawrenceT]

I had a serious week of listening and playing with the auralic Altair G1.  After listening to it for the first day, I kept going between CD/SACD on my 15 year old CDSD transport/DCC2 dac/pre and realized I much preferred listening to my older equipment.  I found the Altair too forward and the soundstage compressed.  Highs were a bit shrill and although it had more details/resolution, it was much less engaging, less immersive and not as relaxed/easy to listen as the DCC2.  I found it fatiguing after many hours.  Then, when my dealer came to pick it up after the week, he brought the AURALiC ARIES G2.1 (streamer only) which we plugged into my DCC2 with AES output.  Suddenly, I realized the potential of streaming and how important the network bridge is, as the music became more open, engaging and sounded much closer to playing CDs in my system.  The only problem was the DCC2 has to be manually set to 44.1 vs 48kHz, which was a pain as my playlist had a mix of FLAC/MQA and I couldn't send DSF files through the AES input.  But it showed me that to replace what I am used to may take a bigger investment on a single (all in one streamer/DAC)  or two boxes (streamer + DAC).  In the process I probably want a more modern DAC.   Not easy to audition in the time of COVID, as I can't leave outside my Atlantic bubble of provinces without 2 weeks quarantine at home (unable to work)...   For now I will continue to listen to CDs and stream Tidal through my Mac until I can figure out the route. 

[left channel]

@LawrenceT the DAC in the Altair G1 is an ESS 9038Q2M. When you switched to the G2.1 through your EMM Labs equipment, you were probably hearing a warmer smoother sound. I suggest you try the Aurender A10.

[tedwoods]

These days I stream from Tidal almost exclusively.

The thing that made the biggest impact in the streaming quality was adding an audio switch and decent cabling.

So, regardless of the streaming solution you'll end up with, it's worth giving those two some consideration also.

[EMM Labs]

On 8/24/2020 at 8:54 AM, LawrenceT said:

I had a serious week of listening and playing with the auralic Altair G1.  After listening to it for the first day, I kept going between CD/SACD on my 15 year old CDSD transport/DCC2 dac/pre and realized I much preferred listening to my older equipment.  I found the Altair too forward and the soundstage compressed.  Highs were a bit shrill and although it had more details/resolution, it was much less engaging, less immersive and not as relaxed/easy to listen as the DCC2.  I found it fatiguing after many hours.  Then, when my dealer came to pick it up after the week, he brought the AURALiC ARIES G2.1 (streamer only) which we plugged into my DCC2 with AES output.  Suddenly, I realized the potential of streaming and how important the network bridge is, as the music became more open, engaging and sounded much closer to playing CDs in my system.  The only problem was the DCC2 has to be manually set to 44.1 vs 48kHz, which was a pain as my playlist had a mix of FLAC/MQA and I couldn't send DSF files through the AES input.  But it showed me that to replace what I am used to may take a bigger investment on a single (all in one streamer/DAC)  or two boxes (streamer + DAC).  In the process I probably want a more modern DAC.   Not easy to audition in the time of COVID, as I can't leave outside my Atlantic bubble of provinces without 2 weeks quarantine at home (unable to work)...   For now I will continue to listen to CDs and stream Tidal through my Mac until I can figure out the route. 

We will have a new route for you soon Lawrence

 

Cheers from EMM Labs

[R1200CL]

On 8/10/2020 at 4:01 PM, LawrenceT said:

simaudio moon 390;

auralic Altair G1

Auralic Vega G1 (or possibly G2.1)

esoteric N-05

aurender A10

Lumin T2

Mytek Brooklyn Bridge

You should probably add the Sonore Signature SE  paired with an Uptone etherRegen to the list. The latter you should order in any case what streamer you decide to go for. 

From Chris review of another emmlabs DAC. 

The best sound, without question, was had by pairing the DV2 with the Sonore Signature Rendu SE Optical feeding the USB input of the DV2

 

You would probably need a Roon server as well 😀

SonicTransporter, NUC with ROCK or a Nucleus

(You don’t need a NAS for storing CD - rips)

 

On 8/10/2020 at 4:01 PM, LawrenceT said:

Qobuz not available in Canada

You only need a one time US IP address for registration and you’re good to go with Qobuz. This is archived with VPN unless you have a US friend that can register on your behalf. 
 

Edit:

I now noticed your DAC hasn’t an USB input. That is solved with a USB to SPDIF converter. 
I can understand why you may consider a new DAC, but if your current one serves you well, done correctly, you should get equal or better sound with streaming as with CD. 
 

But how are you able to stream from that MAC ?

[R1200CL]

Out of time for editing, but I now understand you need a streamer with interfaces that suits your present DAC. So that may rule out Sonore’s options. 

With Roon you get MQA first unfold (24/96KHz), as well as a very good way to add very cheap room correction to your system. Learn more here as well.
 

There is a ongoing (and endless?) discussion about how well manufacturers has been able to implement USB and network interface to streamers and DAC’s. Hence why many use their old good sounding DAC’s and add reasonable priced products based on John Swenson design (sold by UpTone and Sonore). 
The (modified) SU-1 review here has many happy users.

 

The downside going this route is you may ending up with more boxes, but you may get extremely good sound at a reasonable price. 

 

 

[LawrenceT]

11 hours ago, EMM Labs said:

We will have a new route for you soon Lawrence

 

Cheers from EMM Labs

Very anxious to hear the details, as my MacBook Pro streaming TIDAL FLAC into the DCC2 via coax is not replacing CDs played on the aging CDSD & the DCC2.  Of course if you have a spare demo NS-1 to send me while I wait ...

[LawrenceT]

6 hours ago, R1200CL said:

You only need a one time US IP address for registration and you’re good to go with Qobuz. This is archived with VPN unless you have a US friend that can register on your behalf. 
 

I've done that it in the past, but with the borders closed I can't seeing getting to the US anytime soon!!!  I need to find a VPN that can fool the registration !

[LawrenceT]

6 hours ago, R1200CL said:

You would probably need a Roon server as well 😀

SonicTransporter, NUC with ROCK or a Nucleus

(You don’t need a NAS for storing CD - rips)

 

It's getting too complicated, if for the most part I just want to play Tidal or Qobuz hi-res files or perhaps some DSD stored on a USB drive, as I want to get away from buying/storing CD/(SACDs). Can someone explain whether using a Roon server (e.g. nucleus) to stream Tidal into a network streamer (e.g. auralic Vega 2.1) would sound better than just hooking the ethernet cable directly into the streamer.  

 

If it does sound better, WHY ?

[LawrenceT]

6 hours ago, R1200CL said:

You should probably add the Sonore Signature SE  paired with an Uptone etherRegen to the list. The latter you should order in any case what streamer you decide to go for. 

From Chris review of another emmlabs DAC. 

The best sound, without question, was had by pairing the DV2 with the Sonore Signature Rendu SE Optical feeding the USB input of the DV2

 

You would probably need a Roon server as well 😀

SonicTransporter, NUC with ROCK or a Nucleus

(You don’t need a NAS for storing CD - rips)

 

You only need a one time US IP address for registration and you’re good to go with Qobuz. This is archived with VPN unless you have a US friend that can register on your behalf. 
 

Edit:

I now noticed your DAC hasn’t an USB input. That is solved with a USB to SPDIF converter. 
I can understand why you may consider a new DAC, but if your current one serves you well, done correctly, you should get equal or better sound with streaming as with CD. 
 

But how are you able to stream from that MAC ?

Of course when I bought the DCC2 in 2005 it was after a lot of auditioning of CD transports/DACs & CD players and the emmlabs sound won me over.  Obviously I haven't rushed to replace in 15 years, but at the same time DACs are now so advanced from 2004/5.   Continuing with the DCC2 as my source DAC is not ideal as I need to manually switch between 44.1 vs. 48kHz and I'm not sure how I can easily send DSD files to the DAC.  Right now, I got a inexpensive solution to stream my MacBook Pro using a used Schiit EITR I bought from Canuck Audio mart running USB cable from my 2016, 13" MacBook Pro into the EITR and then connecting SPDIF coax into the DCC2 and limiting my Tidal account to HI-Fi (FLAC) so I don't have to change the base frequency between 44.1 and 48.  I'm trialing Audirvana vs. Roon so I can control the music with my iPhone.  I realize there are much better USB to SPDIF converters than the EITR, but this is a temporary solution for now until I decide on a streamer/DAC for the next 15 years...

[LawrenceT]

7 hours ago, R1200CL said:

you should get equal or better sound with streaming as with CD. 

Actually with the Schiit Eitr, AQ forest usb-c >> usb-B cable and an unnamed digital COAX cable it doesn't sound that bad compared to the CDs...  Could try a better COAX I guess for now ?

[R1200CL]

18 hours ago, LawrenceT said:

Can someone explain whether using a Roon server (e.g. nucleus) to stream Tidal into a network streamer (e.g. auralic Vega 2.1) would sound better than just hooking the ethernet cable directly into the streamer.  

 

If it does sound better, WHY ?

In general a good dedicated endpoint (Ethernet in) will sound better than a PC.

A well designed (and expensive) network streamer with SPDIF or AES/EBU may be equal. And of cause a streaming DAC. 
 

Just remember, you have a DAC that’s probably equal or better than most reasonable priced DAC’s of today. 

If using Roon, you will in any case need a NUC or equal where Roon and maybe some of your music is located. As I think you have found out already. 
 

It has been written a lot of why it sounds better. There are expensive solutions that can do everything in one box.

 

Here is a simple search with one person having some opinions about why.

The first post in the Novel tread may link you to other interesting findings. 

Take some time and read around in this site should help you a lot in right direction. 
 

17 hours ago, LawrenceT said:

Continuing with the DCC2 as my source DAC is not ideal as I need to manually switch between 44.1 vs. 48kHz and I'm not sure how I can easily send DSD files to the DAC.

I couldn’t find any information in DCC2. If it hasn’t a remote, it may be an issue, but you can set a fixed sampling rate in Roon. If your DAC accepts DSD, it should be no difference. 

 

17 hours ago, LawrenceT said:

I'm trialing Audirvana vs. Roon so I can control the music with my iPhone.

That’s nice. I guess you have installed Roon on your MAC then. 
 

17 hours ago, LawrenceT said:

Right now, I got a inexpensive solution to stream my MacBook Pro using a used Schiit EITR I bought from Canuck Audio mart running USB cable from my 2016, 13" MacBook Pro into the EITR and then connecting SPDIF coax into the DCC2 and limiting my Tidal account to HI-Fi (FLAC) so I don't have to change the base frequency between 44.1 and 48

 

17 hours ago, LawrenceT said:

I realize there are much better USB to SPDIF converters than the EITR, but this is a temporary solution for now until I decide on a streamer/DAC for the next 15 years...

The Etir may not be bad. Maybe an USPCB would help. Here is a tread about Etir. 
 

Here is a simple test you can do. This should sound better. 
Purchase the CCK to your iPhone and make the iPhone an endpoint. 
Make sure it’s the CCK, not anything else.  
Meaning you disconnect the MacBook and control Roon from there. 
The trick to make this work is to turn of private zone
 

17 hours ago, LawrenceT said:

Could try a better COAX I guess for now ?

Maybe, but don’t spend much money on a coax. A proper simple true 75 ohm cable is OK. Can’t you use same as on your CD ?
Belden as an example may be just fine. 

 

[R1200CL]

I found the manual for your DAC online. It seems input samples rate can’t be altered by the remote. But I don’t think it’s an issue. As said you can set this in Roon. You should also limit output to 96khz, (Most relevant for Qobuz or local files). 
 

Do you have any DSD files BTW ? The manual doesn’t say what DSD rate is supported.

 

You DAC has some interesting options. It was maybe ahead of its time. You may regret selling it 😀

Adding a master clock can do something. I don’t know the required frequency. But anyway not something to focus on now. 

Here is another experiment for you. Be careful. 
Bypass the internal preamp and connected the DAC direct to your amp. (Just move the cables to analog line output). Don’t do this with power on. This will feed your amplifier with full volume. So you can’t use this with your CD player. I suppose you already during testing has switched off Roon volume control. Now you can activate it. Set volume to zero and start play, and increase carefully. Does it sound better ?

 

As a general advice, balanced cables is preferred. 

 

[R1200CL]

@LawrenceT

How have you you connected the CDSD to the DAC ?
 

Like this ?

 

[LawrenceT]

2 hours ago, R1200CL said:

I found the manual for your DAC online. It seems input samples rate can’t be altered by the remote. But I don’t think it’s an issue. As said you can set this in Roon. You should also limit output to 96khz, (Most relevant for Qobuz or local files). 
 

Do you have any DSD files BTW ? The manual doesn’t say what DSD rate is supported.

 

You DAC has some interesting options. It was maybe ahead of its time. You may regret selling it 😀

Adding a master clock can do something. I don’t know the required frequency. But anyway not something to focus on now. 

Here is another experiment for you. Be careful. 
Bypass the internal preamp and connected the DAC direct to your amp. (Just move the cables to analog line output). Don’t do this with power on. This will feed your amplifier with full volume. So you can’t use this with your CD player. I suppose you already during testing has switched off Roon volume control. Now you can activate it. Set volume to zero and start play, and increase carefully. Does it sound better ?

 

As a general advice, balanced cables is preferred. 

 

Thanks for all of your input.Much appreciated.

 

Not sure I want to go the Roon way just yet.  I have 9 days left on my trial.  But Audirvana is working just fine so far with the Macbook.  

 

Let's see what emmlabs has coming...

[R1200CL]

On 9/5/2020 at 7:20 AM, EMM Labs said:

Cheers from EMM Labs

What’s the limitations using NS1 with DCC2 via EMM Labs Optilink. 
Meaning max DSD rate, and max PCM (I guess 24 bit / 96khz). 
What about DoP support ? (Or is that the only DSD support NS1 does ) ?
 

Can DCC2 be modified by you to support 192khz ?

Or any other modifications ? (Like internal clock upgrades). 
 

If the OP keep his present equipment and purchase a NS1, what’s your recommendation of how to connect both CDSD and NS1 simultaneously ?

Please also confirm to the OP that the NS1 do not decode any MQA. This is required by SW players that support this option. (So also using mConnect app won’t give MQA).

 

 

[R1200CL]

23 hours ago, LawrenceT said:

I need to find a VPN that can fool the registration !

Free options here:

https://www.vpnmentor.com/blog/top-really-free-vpn-services/

[left channel]

On 9/5/2020 at 9:50 AM, LawrenceT said:

I've done that it in the past, but with the borders closed I can't seeing getting to the US anytime soon!!!  I need to find a VPN that can fool the registration !

 

I did that to get on the UK service from the US before they launched here, but I think Qobuz plugged that hole a while ago, and now check for your credit card or PayPal billing address. At least that's what seems to be happening to Europeans trying to register across borders.

[LawrenceT]

17 hours ago, R1200CL said:

What’s the limitations using NS1 with DCC2 via EMM Labs Optilink. 
Meaning max DSD rate, and max PCM (I guess 24 bit / 96khz). 
What about DoP support ? (Or is that the only DSD support NS1 does ) ?

We started off the search with looking at the NS-1.  But my legacy DCC2 can’t connect by Optilink, so we are looking at AES or Toslink to connect the streamer to the DAC.   I initially thought MQA was important to me, but the more I read the less important that seems.  But playing DSD, DSF files would be nice.  Waiting to see what emmlabs has coming in the future ...

[R1200CL]

2 hours ago, LawrenceT said:

But my legacy DCC2 can’t connect by Optilink

According to manual it has, correct ? Ref also picture in post above. 
 

I’m wondering what raw DSD is, that’s why my questions to @EMM Labs

 

Well, with your Tidal subscription you get MQA in any case 😀

And I think both players you’re testing supports MQA first unfold which is within limitations of your DAC. 
 

You say you like to have DSD. Does that mean to upsample to DSD as well ?

[LawrenceT]

5 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

According to manual it has, correct ? Ref. Picture in post above. 

 

I asked the company the same thing. But I think my legacy DCC2 doesn’t allow connection with emmlabs Optilink.  Maybe the link has been modified since 2005.  I was told AES or toslink were my only connection options. 

[R1200CL]

13 minutes ago, LawrenceT said:

But I think my legacy DCC2 doesn’t allow connection with emmlabs Optilink.

As asked before:

How do you connect DCC2 and CDSD today and if you’re not doing it according to how it should sound best, why ?
You can also read about Optilink here. (But it’s also stated in manuals).