Master Clock for your EtherREGEN

[PYP]

2 hours ago, dbastin said:

Sorry, I dont have time read 62 pages, so pls redirect me if this has been covered already..

 

Has anyone who has daisy chained 2 ERs put Master Clock on both?  And if so, what degree of benefit was gained with adding the 2nd Master Clock?

From reading their setups long ago, there are folks who use 2 ERs and both are clocked; however, iirc they have not commented on the benefit of the second clock only.  Given that adding a second ER has been described on a continuum of "meh" to "was a bigger change than adding the first ER," it is clear that generalizing across systems isn't reliable.  That same principle would apply to clocks.  

 

Personally, I use two ERs but only the second (just before the DAC) uses an external clock.  Sounds very, very good and adding the second ER, for whatever reason, was a large change.  I prefer as simple a setup as possible, therefore only the second ER gets all the attention (clock, LPS, upgraded DC cable).  

[PYP]

On 8/6/2021 at 2:43 PM, Qstik said:

To bring up an old topic but with a twist, my Mini-Circuits BLP-10.7+ 50 ohm which I installed in late June started failing badly a week ago.  Main issues were loss of overall musicality and, in particular, collapsed sound stage.  Right away I placed an order with Mini-Circuits for a replacement.  It quickly arrived several days ago thanks to same day shipping.  While I was at it, I also ordered this impedance matching pad:  https://www.fairviewmicrowave.com/images/productPDF/SI1500.pdf  It arrived today - also same day shipping.   I ordered the matching pad because I was concerned about impedance mismatch reflections within the 50 ohm AfterDark Huber+Suhner cable between my 50 ohm AfterDark Emperor Double Crown Master Clock and my 75 ohm clock input ER.  I know John Swenson said matching impedances was unnecessary with the Mini-Circuits LPF, but call me a cynic - I figured maybe I was unlucky with cable length/construction and that reflections might be stacking upon reflections.  For $71 + taxes and shipping, I figured "what the heck", let's find out.  Today I've run listening sessions in four configurations - 1) straight cable with no LPF or Matching Pad, 2) LPF only, 3) Matching pad only, and 4) both LPF and Matching Pad in series.  Pad was attached nearest to the ER.

 

My results briefly:

1.  Straight cable - harsh cymbals, indistinct sound of snare drum wires.  Once I picked up on it, it's hard to ignore the poor sound quality.

 

Interesting.  What clock cable are you using?  

[PYP]

4 hours ago, audiojerry said:

My rudimentary understanding is that unless you get a costly squarewave clock and proper filter match, you would better off using a much less expensive 10mhz sinewave clock using a filter such as the Mini-Circuits BLP-10.7+, or Crystek CLPFL-0010-BNC. But I have not seen any recommendation or concurrence for a reasonbly price sinewave clock. 

General consensus seems to be that the buying an inexpensive Chinese clock is rolling the dice -- you may or may not receive one that measures well.  AfterDark clocks cost significantly more, but you get proven performance (print out of your unit's specs) and several models are significantly less (one is priced at $565) than something like a Cybershaft (approximately $1,400 and up).  

 

AfterDark has its own forum here on AS.  They are physically located in Hong Kong.  You could also contact these folks in the states who sell AfterDark clocks and discuss what you are looking for:  https://ctronicmusic.com/shop/ols/products/afterdark-project-clayx-giesemann-ocxo-10mhz-reference-master-clock   When you consider total price and getting the most out of the clock, you will want to use a LPS but that could be purchased later if budget is an immediate concern.  Happy hunting.   

[PYP]

15 minutes ago, audiojerry said:

 

I was trying to nudge Superdad to comment on whether Uptone was considering or even planning to build their own

external device.

 

Pinging Superdad. PING   PING   PING

Alex has answered that a few times with a "No."  On the other hand, John has the mini-Tokamak-powered USB in prototype and has said from an undisclosed location (likely underground) that:  We have achieved Q greater than 1.  I'm not sure what that means, but I'm assuming it is good news since you can not only power your stereo with the UpTone mini-T (as they are calling it) but also your neighborhood.  And you didn't hear it from me!

[PYP]

1 hour ago, Mihaylov said:

breaks not only the moat in the ER, but also makes it pointless to use the ethernet interface at all (twisted pair or optics all the same) since it deprives ethernet of its main advantage, namely galvanic device isolation. Be very careful in the network configuration so as not to break the galvanic isolation and use a separate clock for each device on the local network, then it will be sufficient one switch instead of several.

My previous setup --  optical module > ER -- with an external clock and the ER + clock powered by the same JS-2 broke the moat yet sounded quite good.   It did sound better by reinstating the moat.  Had all the advantages of what a good external clock provides (naturalness/tone) + the moat's qualities of sense of space and dynamism = very much like live event.  

 

Have since removed the optical module (going up for sale shortly) because adding a second eR (stock, using internal clock) made the oM redundant.   I just mention this to point out that different setups may lead to different arrangements of the components.  One size does not fit all systems/ears/expectations.

 

As to @aubreybobb questions, I found that an excellent clock cable makes a significant difference (in my case, additional micro dynamics and a surprising increase in timbral truth), even for a sine wave clock, and that the last copper ethernet (in my case, between eR#2 and DAC) makes a significant difference too (more of everything, as they say).   I prefer to use cables from the same manufacturer, rather than trying to tune the system with different brands.  Excellent cables are often expensive but can be bought on the used market.

 

 

 

 

[PYP]

41 minutes ago, JohnSwenson said:

The SMPS distinction is important. The leakage current from SMPS and linear supplies is quite different (I'm not going into detail here, I've written a lot about this in other places), it is the SMPS type that goes through most high frequency transformers. The leakage from linear supplies DOES get blocked by these transformers.

 

John S.

Does a dedicated electrical line for one's setup provide leakage current protection from all the other lines that meet at the circuit breaker panel box?  I can understand why reducing/eliminating SMPS supplies on the same dedicated line would be beneficial, but wonder about whether the fact that everything joins at the panel box means the dedicated circuit is not complete protection from SMPS in other places in the home.

 

Thanks.  

[PYP]

5 hours ago, aubreybobb said:

Hi John, 

 

I'm a newbie in this forum - 2 ER switch's and one Sotm in a cascade from router and NAS to dCS streamer.  Streamer direct to active digital speakers.  The SOTM/ER connection is with a Finnisar/glass connection and the two ER's are with copper.   Its a nuisance turning this around so that the fibre would be between the two ER's, but I will try it if you think its a good idea and can spare the time to guide me. 

 

I'm definitely not John, but it seems to me that since use already use fiber before the eRs, it is fine to use copper between the two eRs (meaning, you already have galvanic isolation implemented and there is nothing to be gained).  I no longer use fiber, but connecting the two eRs with copper works well for me.

 

Regarding grounding:  You might want to experiment with grounding.  Easier to do and makes a difference.  However, if it already sounds great, you most likely have it optimized.

 

Regarding the clock:  As you know, it takes a month to stabilize; however, if it sounds great, you probably have it right.  

 

I don't think anyone will be able to tell you exactly how to connect all this stuff -- too many variables -- and trusting your ears is the way to go.  

 

Have fun.  

[PYP]

8 hours ago, aubreybobb said:

 

I should mention here that all my equipment is earthed to an active grounding box from Synergistic Research.  Differences of effectiveness of moat were clearly audible with and without the grounding box earlier (using mediocre cables).   Those differences are now swamped by the effect of using good clock cables.

That was also my experience with adding a very good clock cable.  For those who use an external LPS for the clock, you might want to experiment with the DC cable too.  I was surprised that the DC cable made a difference.  Not as large as the clock cable, but still worthwhile if you are at the point of tweaking the little stuff and want to hear all that the clock can do.  

[PYP]

25 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

Not knowing your endpoint, I would do ABAB, and probably only external clock last EtherRegen. 

My setup is ABAB with the second (last) eR using an external clock.  Two separate LPSs, as you have it, is an optimal setup.    I'm really enjoying the result.  

 

Since my clock only has one output, I couldn't experiment with adding a clock signal to the first eR, but since you do have a second output, it is worth trying.  In my setup, the clock cable makes a significant difference and took a month to settle in.  Also, my clock took a month to stabilize.  If your setup reacts in a similar way, a quick change may not give you the answer you want.  

[PYP]

2 hours ago, LewinskiH01 said:

 

Interesting. Do you think the 1-month stabilization had to do with breaking in or with temperature? I might have reacted too soon.

 

I have two eR ab-ab, 1st one with the supplied SMPS, the 2nd with LPS-1.2 both fed from a balanced power conditioner.

 

I tried the BG7BTL with stock SMPS: left it on for 3 days, then connected it to the 2nd eR and listened. Couldn't perceive any difference so I removed the BG7BTL. Maybe I didn't let it break in enough? 

 

FWIW my BG7BTL has only square wave outputs, purchased right before John made his paper public, so I kind of figured what I was (not) hearing was in line with his paper.

I believe the stabilization of the clock is temperature related.  My only familiarity with clocks is with the Cybershaft, which is a very well-designed and well-implemented clock and one I can recommend (not inexpensive, however).  Improvement was heard before the 30-day period, but it improved significantly over time and then didn't change.  The final result was a significant improvement in musicality when used with a quality LPS (UpTone JS-2 is perfect) and especially when used with a quality clock cable.  I tried the filter John recommended for sine wave clocks and it worked well with a middling clock cable but wasn't needed with a very good cable (in fact, sounded better without the filter).   

 

The kind of inexpensive SMPS included with some gear never works well in my setup.  Even with two eRs, substituting a LPS for the included SMPS made major improvements as well as providing consistency.  With the SMPS, sometimes my setup would sound fine and then it wouldn't.  Not sure why.  A quality LPS doesn't cause that inconsistency, the high frequencies are always improved (well, all frequencies are better but my brain insists it can hear SMPS noise in the high frequencies) and there is more body to the music.  

 

I would think that three days is sufficient time to hear whether a clock makes a difference.   Seems to me you have already assessed whether that clock works in your setup and the answer appears to be no.  John did mention that some of those clocks measure better than others, therefore it is just chance if you get one that sounds good.  The Cybershaft and AD clocks are NOT like that since the manufacturers measure various clocks and choose only the ones that meet their standards.  That process takes skill and time, both reflected in the cost.  The clock is also sensitive to vibration, so a good case that is designed for the purpose is essential.