Mahler Symphony 10 Completions

[austinpop]

Started last night on a fun listening project: the "unfinished" Mahler Symphony 10. Since the composer's death, there have been several "completions" that have gained various degrees of support. Obviously, the gold standard is the Deryck Cooke version, that was blessed by Alma Mahler herself. This is the version I know and love. My favorite performance is:

 

 

 

So, I thought I'd - over several nights - try out some of the other notable versions, by Joe Wheeler, Clinton Carpenter, Rudolf Barshai, Yoel Gamzou, and a chamber version by Michelle Castelletti. I'll be listening to the 3rd Purgatorio and 5th Finale movements.

 

First up:

 

 

Verdict: 👎

 

I disliked the orchestration in general, and the tempo in the last movement was almost frenetic, giving me no emotional connection to the music. Blah!

 

 

[austinpop]

17 minutes ago, Bob Stern said:

 

We have the same taste here: my favorite also is Dausgaard, Seattle Sym.  In the unlikely event you might also like a heavier, slower performance, Levine Philadelphia 1978 (RCA) also is good.

 

If you're looking for a Carpenter to try, the one by Andrew Litton & Dallas Sym got good reviews.

 

Thanks, I had identified the Zinman/Tonhalle release to listen to, but will certainly add Litton/Dallas to my playlist.

 

15 minutes ago, AnotherSpin said:

 

What is your opinion about Rattle's version with Bournemouth Orch.?

 

That's another Cooke performance, isn't it? I've not heard it. I've heard Rattle's version with the Berlin PO and liked it fine, it just didn't displace Dausgaard/Seattle.

[austinpop]

Hmm, on second thought, this seems a bit OT for this thread. 

 

@The Computer Audiophile

 

Perhaps move my last 2, and Bob and AnotherSpin's posts to a new thread in the Music forum entitled "Mahler Symphony 10 Completions?"

[austinpop]

5 hours ago, chetthejet said:

If you can find it somewhere, you might be interested in trying the 1965 recording with Eugene Ormandy and the Philadelphia.......if nothing else because of its history.  It was the first ever commercial recording of the Cooke/#10.

This one? It’s on Qobuz.

 

[austinpop]

Please folks, jump in with your own impressions too! This thread is not just about my impressions.

[austinpop]

Before digging into another "completion" version, I took a detour today to explore a couple of Cooke versions recommended on this thread. First up was the Simon Rattle/Bournemouth performance:

 

 

I found this performance much more heartfelt and expressive than the more recent Rattle/Berlin Philharmonic version, even though the latter is a 24/44.1 release. An excellent choice!

 

Then I moved to the Ormondy:

 

 

I'll be honest, I'm not usually a fan of "historic" performances. But wow - this performance has been beautifully remastered, and sounds almost as good as a modern recording! And it's an incredible performance. What a thrill it must have been to those fortunate enough to hear Ormondy perform this back in 1965. I did find the tempos to be a bit too dignified, and overall the performance seemed just a bit reserved. Perhaps displays of emotional exuberance were just not culturally appropriate in 1965?

 

Ultimately though, I must say the Dausgaard just towers over these, not because they're bad, but Dausgaard's is so good! 

 

Finally, to round out the night, I listened to the Michelle Castelletti completion, arranged for chamber orchestra, performed on this excellent BIS recording by the Lapland Chamber Orchestra.

 

I must say, I found this version beguiling and charming. As you know, Mahler's style, even with large orchestral forces, is to form them into spontaneous chamber groupings, and this lends itself well to a chamber transcription. I've heard this done really well with Mahler's Fifth by the Natalia Ensemble, and this version is similarly effective.

 

 

Of course, I never expected this chamber version to supplant the Dausgaard, and it didn't. But if you want to hear a fresh take on this masterpiece, give this BIS version a listen!

[austinpop]

3 hours ago, Norton said:

I’m not familiar with this work (although I think I have several unplayed copies buried in the vinyl collection).

 

I did notice a couple of recordings from Exton (a favourite label) including  a one point microphone recording:

 

https://open.qobuz.com/album/0191018049775

 

plus:

https://open.qobuz.com/album/n9pj5277m91xc

 

Can someone post a link for the Ormandy, I can’t find using obvious search criteria? Thanks.

 

Yes, the second one is on my list to listen to. It is the "Samale & Mazzuca" completion version.

 

The Ormandy is here (Qobuz US): https://open.qobuz.com/album/0828767874227

[austinpop]

My plan for listening — in case you want to do the same, perhaps? — is to check out the Clinton Carpenter completion versions tonight:

• Litton/Dallas: https://open.qobuz.com/album/0013491329529
• Zinman/Zurich Tonhalle: https://open.qobuz.com/album/0884977699579

Subsequent few nights:

• Mazetti completion version: Slatkin/St. Louis: https://open.qobuz.com/album/0888880762153
• "Samale & Mazzuca" completion version: Sieghart/Arnhem: https://open.qobuz.com/album/n9pj5277m91xc
• Barshai completion version: Barsahi/Junge Deutsche: https://open.qobuz.com/album/5028421940403
• Gamzou completion version: Gamzou/Internation Mahler: https://open.qobuz.com/album/ymthfu594a33a

Feel free to post your impressions. No need to synchronize. It's not like there are spoilers here!

[austinpop]

I had a delay due to an AC malfunction, that just got fixed by a tech who came in full PPE! Well - no - just a mask and gloves, but still, as safe as could be expected.

 

With the house blessedly cooling on a humid Texas day, I finally got a chance to listen to the two Clinton Carpenter completions:

 

I don't know - either Cooke's version is now baked in to my brain, or it really does sound more true to Mahler, but just like the Wheeler completion, this one just didn't sound "right." The Litton/Dallas had better SQ, and a more pleasing performance overall, but left me cold again.

 

I suspect you really have to be a musicologist or a trained musician to do this comparison. I am neither. Maybe some of you can be more expert in this, but for me, this doesn't feel like a worthwhile project any more. I will still listen to the others on the list, but I would be very surprised if any of them supplant the Cooke version as my favorite.

[austinpop]

Wow, very impressive. You binge-listened to quite the collection there!  Now I need to catch up! Thanks for your impressions.

 

The first Adagio movement was the most completed part of this symphony by the composer, so has the least need for completion. That's why it is (and should) be similar in all the completion versions. And indeed, is the one performed the most by conductors who don't want to touch any of the completion versions.

 

For my part, my listening last night continued with two more completion versions:

 

Remo Mazetti completion version: Slatkin/St. Louis: 

https://open.qobuz.com/album/0888880762153

https://tidal.com/browse/album/13331927

 

"Samale & Mazzuca" completion version: Sieghart/Arnhem: 

https://open.qobuz.com/album/n9pj5277m91xc

https://tidal.com/browse/album/48415258

 

I must say, I found both of these versions to be quite attractive. While the Samale & Mazzuca version does tend to have a less Mahlerian feel to it, it's an outstanding recording on the Exton label. The Mazetti version is actually quite compelling, and seems to hew to a Mahlerian feel much like the Cooke.

 

Just like Dausgaard's version is actually Cooke III, the 3rd and final revision of Cooke's version published in 1976, Mazetti published a 2nd revision of his version after the Slatkin/St. Louis recording. There is a recording of that version, call it Mazetti II, by Jesus Lopez-Cobos/Cincinnati on Telarc, but I can't find it on streaming.

 

Still, both these versions were far more appealing than the Wheeler and Clinton completions, that I actually disliked.

 

When all is said and done though, I still find the Cooke III to be the most compelling completion version so far, and the Dausgaard to be the best performance and recording.

 

Tonight's plan: Barshai and Gamzou.

[austinpop]

I listened to the Barshai and Gamzou (on Tidal) last night. These don't deserve much of a writeup.

 

The Barshai is a decent recording, and doesn't jar too much, but it really doesn't sound Mahlerian.

 

The Gamzou is just weird. Let's leave it at that.

 

I think I'll go back to my Dausgaard version of the Cooke III now!

[austinpop]

I was able to get my hands on the Jesús López-Cobos/Cincinnati recording on Telarc. This is a Remo Mazzetti II completion.

 

 

This is a really fine recording, and a very enjoyable performance. While I'm no expert, I did find subtle differences between this version and the Mazzetti I completion on the Slatkin/St. Louis recording.

 

While this doesn't change my preference for the Cooke III completion, and the Dausgaard/Seattle performance, it does reinforce my conclusion that of all the other full orchestral completions of the 10th, only the Mazzetti has tickled my fancy. 

 

Other than Cooke III, which I will always prefer, I found the Mazzetti II and Castelletti chamber completions to be the only ones I also enjoyed. 

[austinpop]

9 hours ago, pdvm said:

My favorite: Chailly. Especially the second scherzo, to me, has something very tragic in his performance.

Someone mentioned his 'big-orchestra' approach. For me, that's a plus in Mahler. Sound quality is top-notch.

Thank you, I had not actually heard Chailly’s version. I haven’t been particularly taken with a couple of his other Mahler recordings, but I should have tried his 10th.

 

It is rather good! While overall I still prefer Dausgaard, this one goes in my library as a very welcome alternative.