Mahler Symphony 10 Completions

[austinpop]

Started last night on a fun listening project: the "unfinished" Mahler Symphony 10. Since the composer's death, there have been several "completions" that have gained various degrees of support. Obviously, the gold standard is the Deryck Cooke version, that was blessed by Alma Mahler herself. This is the version I know and love. My favorite performance is:

 

 

 

So, I thought I'd - over several nights - try out some of the other notable versions, by Joe Wheeler, Clinton Carpenter, Rudolf Barshai, Yoel Gamzou, and a chamber version by Michelle Castelletti. I'll be listening to the 3rd Purgatorio and 5th Finale movements.

 

First up:

 

 

Verdict: 👎

 

I disliked the orchestration in general, and the tempo in the last movement was almost frenetic, giving me no emotional connection to the music. Blah!

 

 

[Bob Stern]

2 hours ago, austinpop said:

Mahler Symphony 10

 

We have the same taste here: my favorite also is Dausgaard, Seattle Sym.  In the unlikely event you might also like a heavier, slower performance, Levine Philadelphia 1978 (RCA) also is good.

 

If you're looking for a Carpenter to try, the one by Andrew Litton & Dallas Sym got good reviews.

[AnotherSpin]

2 hours ago, austinpop said:

Started last night on a fun listening project: the "unfinished" Mahler Symphony 10. Since the composer's death, there have been several "finished" versions that have gained various degrees of support. Obviously, the gold standard is the Deryck Cooke version, that was blessed by Alma Mahler herself. This is the version I know and love. My favorite performance is:

 

 

 

So, I thought I'd - over several nights - try out some of the other notable versions, by Joe Wheeler, Clinton Carpenter, Rudolf Barshai, Yoel Gamzou, and a chamber version by Michelle Castelletti. I'll be listening to the 3rd Purgatorio and 5th Finale movements.

 

First up:

 

 

Verdict: 👎

 

I disliked the orchestration in general, and the tempo in the last movement was almost frenetic, giving me no emotional connection to the music. Blah!

 

 

 

What is your opinion about Rattle's version with Bournemouth Orch.?

[austinpop]

17 minutes ago, Bob Stern said:

 

We have the same taste here: my favorite also is Dausgaard, Seattle Sym.  In the unlikely event you might also like a heavier, slower performance, Levine Philadelphia 1978 (RCA) also is good.

 

If you're looking for a Carpenter to try, the one by Andrew Litton & Dallas Sym got good reviews.

 

Thanks, I had identified the Zinman/Tonhalle release to listen to, but will certainly add Litton/Dallas to my playlist.

 

15 minutes ago, AnotherSpin said:

 

What is your opinion about Rattle's version with Bournemouth Orch.?

 

That's another Cooke performance, isn't it? I've not heard it. I've heard Rattle's version with the Berlin PO and liked it fine, it just didn't displace Dausgaard/Seattle.

[austinpop]

Hmm, on second thought, this seems a bit OT for this thread. 

 

@The Computer Audiophile

 

Perhaps move my last 2, and Bob and AnotherSpin's posts to a new thread in the Music forum entitled "Mahler Symphony 10 Completions?"

[The Computer Audiophile]

13 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Hmm, on second thought, this seems a bit OT for this thread. 

 

@The Computer Audiophile

 

Perhaps move my last 2, and Bob and AnotherSpin's posts to a new thread in the Music forum entitled "Mahler Symphony 10 Completions?"

Done.

[chetthejet]

If you can find it somewhere, you might be interested in trying the 1965 recording with Eugene Ormandy and the Philadelphia.......if nothing else because of its history.  It was the first ever commercial recording of the Cooke/#10.

[austinpop]

5 hours ago, chetthejet said:

If you can find it somewhere, you might be interested in trying the 1965 recording with Eugene Ormandy and the Philadelphia.......if nothing else because of its history.  It was the first ever commercial recording of the Cooke/#10.

This one? It’s on Qobuz.

 

[chetthejet]

Yep, that's the one.  Let us know what you think of it...

[austinpop]

Please folks, jump in with your own impressions too! This thread is not just about my impressions.

[AnotherSpin]

9 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

Thanks, I had identified the Zinman/Tonhalle release to listen to, but will certainly add Litton/Dallas to my playlist.

 

 

That's another Cooke performance, isn't it? I've not heard it. I've heard Rattle's version with the Berlin PO and liked it fine, it just didn't displace Dausgaard/Seattle.

Yeah, Rattle uses Cooke text. Rattle seems to be the conductor who has been performing completed version of Mahler 10th more often than any other conductor. His recording with the Bournemouth Orchestra was the first I've ever heard many years ago, and the impression is still very vivid.

[austinpop]

Before digging into another "completion" version, I took a detour today to explore a couple of Cooke versions recommended on this thread. First up was the Simon Rattle/Bournemouth performance:

 

 

I found this performance much more heartfelt and expressive than the more recent Rattle/Berlin Philharmonic version, even though the latter is a 24/44.1 release. An excellent choice!

 

Then I moved to the Ormondy:

 

 

I'll be honest, I'm not usually a fan of "historic" performances. But wow - this performance has been beautifully remastered, and sounds almost as good as a modern recording! And it's an incredible performance. What a thrill it must have been to those fortunate enough to hear Ormondy perform this back in 1965. I did find the tempos to be a bit too dignified, and overall the performance seemed just a bit reserved. Perhaps displays of emotional exuberance were just not culturally appropriate in 1965?

 

Ultimately though, I must say the Dausgaard just towers over these, not because they're bad, but Dausgaard's is so good! 

 

Finally, to round out the night, I listened to the Michelle Castelletti completion, arranged for chamber orchestra, performed on this excellent BIS recording by the Lapland Chamber Orchestra.

 

I must say, I found this version beguiling and charming. As you know, Mahler's style, even with large orchestral forces, is to form them into spontaneous chamber groupings, and this lends itself well to a chamber transcription. I've heard this done really well with Mahler's Fifth by the Natalia Ensemble, and this version is similarly effective.

 

 

Of course, I never expected this chamber version to supplant the Dausgaard, and it didn't. But if you want to hear a fresh take on this masterpiece, give this BIS version a listen!

[AnotherSpin]

I heard praises about an early recording by Kurt Sanderling. Will try to listen it now, together with Dausgaard's, which I missed.

[Bob Stern]

1 hour ago, austinpop said:

Ormandy perform this back in 1965. I did find the tempos to be a bit too dignified, and overall the performance seemed just a bit reserved. Perhaps displays of emotional exuberance were just not culturally appropriate in 1965?

 

Ormandy was admired much more for building a fantastic orchestra in Philadelphia than for interesting interpretations.  I find his Mahler 10 brisk and unsentimental, and unsentimental Mahler is a non sequitur.  

 

FYI, Ormandy performs Cooke's original completion, but Cooke published a revision 10 years later, and the latter is what we now know as the Cooke version.

[AnotherSpin]

4 hours ago, Bob Stern said:

 

Ormandy was admired much more for building a fantastic orchestra in Philadelphia than for interesting interpretations.  I find his Mahler 10 brisk and unsentimental, and unsentimental Mahler is a non sequitur.  

 

FYI, Ormandy performs Cooke's original completion, but Cooke published a revision 10 years later, and the latter is what we now know as the Cooke version.

 

I fact, there are three Cooke versions, and yes, Ormandy with Philadelphia and Martinon with Chicago performed first variant in 1966. Recently, Goldschmidt earliest recorded performance was published on Testament.

[AnotherSpin]

5 hours ago, austinpop said:

[...]

Of course, I never expected this chamber version to supplant the Dausgaard, and it didn't. But if you want to hear a fresh take on this masterpiece, give this BIS version a listen!

 

Just listened to Dausgaard's recording. Excellent sound quality, and a very good version in general. Extremely listenable and thoroughly convincing. I'm going to re-listen Rattle's first recording later to compare. Thank you for the reference!

[Norton]

I’m not familiar with this work (although I think I have several unplayed copies buried in the vinyl collection).

 

I did notice a couple of recordings from Exton (a favourite label) including  a one point microphone recording:

 

https://open.qobuz.com/album/0191018049775

 

plus:

https://open.qobuz.com/album/n9pj5277m91xc

 

Can someone post a link for the Ormandy, I can’t find using obvious search criteria? Thanks.

[austinpop]

3 hours ago, Norton said:

I’m not familiar with this work (although I think I have several unplayed copies buried in the vinyl collection).

 

I did notice a couple of recordings from Exton (a favourite label) including  a one point microphone recording:

 

https://open.qobuz.com/album/0191018049775

 

plus:

https://open.qobuz.com/album/n9pj5277m91xc

 

Can someone post a link for the Ormandy, I can’t find using obvious search criteria? Thanks.

 

Yes, the second one is on my list to listen to. It is the "Samale & Mazzuca" completion version.

 

The Ormandy is here (Qobuz US): https://open.qobuz.com/album/0828767874227

[AnotherSpin]

15 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Yes, the second one is on my list to listen to. It is the "Samale & Mazzuca" completion version.

 

The Ormandy is here (Qobuz US): https://open.qobuz.com/album/0828767874227

 

Rudolf Barshai performance of his own version might be added for check out as well 🙂 And, Gielen's Cooke III.

[austinpop]

My plan for listening — in case you want to do the same, perhaps? — is to check out the Clinton Carpenter completion versions tonight:

• Litton/Dallas: https://open.qobuz.com/album/0013491329529
• Zinman/Zurich Tonhalle: https://open.qobuz.com/album/0884977699579

Subsequent few nights:

• Mazetti completion version: Slatkin/St. Louis: https://open.qobuz.com/album/0888880762153
• "Samale & Mazzuca" completion version: Sieghart/Arnhem: https://open.qobuz.com/album/n9pj5277m91xc
• Barshai completion version: Barsahi/Junge Deutsche: https://open.qobuz.com/album/5028421940403
• Gamzou completion version: Gamzou/Internation Mahler: https://open.qobuz.com/album/ymthfu594a33a

Feel free to post your impressions. No need to synchronize. It's not like there are spoilers here!

[zyberguran]

Thank you austinpop, for this thread!

I took the liberty to add Tidal links to your latest list:

 

Litton/Dallas: https://open.qobuz.com/album/0013491329529

or https://tidal.com/browse/album/12353535

 

Zinman/Zurich Tonhalle: https://open.qobuz.com/album/0884977699579

or https://tidal.com/browse/album/4917471

 

Mazetti completion version: Slatkin/St. Louis: https://open.qobuz.com/album/0888880762153

or https://tidal.com/browse/album/13331927

 

"Samale & Mazzuca" completion version: Sieghart/Arnhem: https://open.qobuz.com/album/n9pj5277m91xc

Or https://tidal.com/browse/album/48415258

 

Barshai completion version: Barshai/Junge Deutsche:

https://open.qobuz.com/album/5028421940403

or https://tidal.com/browse/album/22926116

 

Gamzou completion version: Gamzou/International Mahler: https://open.qobuz.com/album/ymthfu594a33a

https://tidal.com/browse/album/88068552

 

This is just to make it easier for those of us that for geographical or other reasons use Tidal.

Enjoy!

Zyberguran 

[Norton]

19 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

Yes, the second one is on my list to listen to. It is the "Samale & Mazzuca" completion version.

 

The Ormandy is here (Qobuz US): https://open.qobuz.com/album/0828767874227

Thanks.  The link doesn’t take me to the album, which makes me think it’s not available in  Qobuz here in UK.

[WAM]

Let me add this one:

 

[austinpop]

I had a delay due to an AC malfunction, that just got fixed by a tech who came in full PPE! Well - no - just a mask and gloves, but still, as safe as could be expected.

 

With the house blessedly cooling on a humid Texas day, I finally got a chance to listen to the two Clinton Carpenter completions:

 

I don't know - either Cooke's version is now baked in to my brain, or it really does sound more true to Mahler, but just like the Wheeler completion, this one just didn't sound "right." The Litton/Dallas had better SQ, and a more pleasing performance overall, but left me cold again.

 

I suspect you really have to be a musicologist or a trained musician to do this comparison. I am neither. Maybe some of you can be more expert in this, but for me, this doesn't feel like a worthwhile project any more. I will still listen to the others on the list, but I would be very surprised if any of them supplant the Cooke version as my favorite.

[zyberguran]

Yesterday. we had a cold day in corona-land Sweden so I took the opportunity to stay indoors in the afternoon and listen to twelve versions of Mahler’s 10th symphony completed by others. I am not a musicologist nor a Mahler expert but I listen to quit a lot of music these days and I got hooked on the thread initiated by Austinpop.

However, I realized that I would take several days to do a proper listening-through of this material so I decided to do a survey by listening to samples. First I listened to the Adagio (1st movement completed by Mahler himself), then I went through the list listening to movements 3 and 5 (excerpts).

The twelve versions that I chose to listen to via Tidal were:

1. Eugene Ormandy, The Philadelphia Orchestra.

2. Thomas Dausgaard, Seattle Symphony Orchestra.

3. Simon Rattle, Berliner Philharmonic Orchestra.

4. David Zinman, Tonhalle Orchestra Zürich.

5. John Storgårds, Lapland Chamber Orchestra.

6. Riccardo Chailly, Rundfunk-Sinfonieorchester Berlin.

7. Simon Rattle, Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra.

8. Andrew Litton, Dallas Symphony Orchestra.

9. Leonard Slatkin, Saint Louis Symphony Orchestra.

10. Martin Sieghart, The Arnheim Philharmonic Orchestra.

11. Rudolf Barshai, Junge Deutsche Philharmonie.

12. Yoel Gamzou, International Mahler Orchestra.

 

My first impression was that the Adagios all sounded remarkably similar, at least as interpretations. I started feeling this was going to be an impossible undertaking to choose one or two favorite versions. But I pressed on, listening to the various attempts to elaborate and complete Mahler’s outline of the 10th symphony.

In my notes I can afterwards see that I found these versions to be everything from lively to dull, from traditional to modern, from elegant to “Mahler on steroids”, etc. When I had listened to them all, I was first tired but ten felt inspired by the fact the I found it easy to pinpoint at least three favorites that I went back to and listened to in full:

 

1. Thomas Dausgaard, Seattle Symphony Orchestra. The best from several worlds! Modern, dynamic, clear. Neutral in a good way.

2. Eugene Ormandy, The Philadelphia Orchestra. Oldie but goodie! Surprisingly fresh and good SQ. Dynamic. Clear. Well balanced. Very likeable.

3. John Storgårds, Lapland Chamber Orchestra. The rookie and big surprise! Modern, charming, lively. Good SQ. Noticeably clear. Dynamic. Feels new, a version for our time.

And I also liked Riccardo Chailly with RSO Berlin. Modern, continental. Big orchestra. Big sound. But still not as effective as chamber size orchestras.

 

I am certainly glad I could stream all these twelve versions and compare them. And now I know that I would like to buy and keep at least my top three versions. And stream others.

And of course I wonder which versions you prefer!

Zyberguran

PS. Good to hear that your place in Texas is cooling down again, Austinpop!