So I've had an EtherRegen in rack for 2 weeks...

[plissken]

16 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Doesn't a buffer just mean jitter in - jitter out, but delayed?

 

Not at all Chris.

 

What these I/O buffers do is solve a design problem: What to do when you have two different clock domains. Ethernet runs at one speed, PCI-E at another. You can't sync these up in real time in any reasonably manageable way.

 

So along comes a bit of buffer that allows inputs and outputs to run at their own rate with some form of management software or firmware that controls the buffer so it doesn't over/under fill.

 

They eliminate jitter.

[plissken]

Just now, Jud said:

 

Because a DAC is where we are interested in jitter.

 

And rightfully so. But the DAC isn't dealing with Jitter from the Ethernet side. That was dealt with. Note the Rx/Tx buffers.

 

[plissken]

5 minutes ago, Jud said:

You're describing async interfaces with I/O buffers, yes?

 

Can we agree on this: Jitter is a variance in what would be the otherwise optimal timing of a signal? Can we also agree that there is always going to be some jitter on all signals if we get a powerful enough measurement device on it?

[plissken]

Again, without reverting to ad-hom attacks about my setup, where am I incorrect? Please, a cogent, well thought out, fact based, response.

 

[plissken]

Here is a Cisco document on Buffer Misses

https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/support/docs/interfaces-modules/channel-interface-processors/14620-41.html

[plissken]

36 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Sure. The question is always going to be whether the jitter is at a level that causes concern, whether by virtue of a certain amount of measured distortion or audible noise.

 

Ok so this will bring me to a point I want to make:

If we can agree on the fact that jitter is variance outside of perfect/optimal timing, and I start play back, and cause the largest possible jitter, and that is pulling the Ethernet cable, and the music still plays. Trust me you pull an Ethernet cable mid transfer you've created an incredible amount of jitter.

 

What does any jitter on the Ethernet input have to do with any jitter a USB / AES-EBU / S-PDif may introduce?

[plissken]

18 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 

That should be a measurement made with access to a particular brand of Ethernet equipment and USB transmission equipment.

 

Or I could, using my example, feed an ADC over the wire audio, and repeatedly plug and unplug the Ethernet cable and see when people can tell when the cable was pulled.

 

I think you see my point.

[plissken]

28 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

What did you hear when listening to those files?

 

I haven't had a chance to listen.

[plissken]

14 minutes ago, mansr said:

Right, it was all about tracking every forum plissken visits and accusing him of running some kind of hit squad.

 

If I was the one starting threads all over that would be one thing. But these are threads already started by others.

[plissken]

1 hour ago, jabbr said:

Though consider @plissken’s example of plucking the wire: at 10G you could essentially transmit the entire song during the silence

 

If you could obtain actual wire speed you could transfer entire albums during silence between tracks 🙂

[plissken]

2 minutes ago, mansr said:

Make it fast enough, and you can transfer an entire album in the interval between two samples.

I don't know of anything that fast in the consumer commercial space. But if we are talking in the realm of what I've seen spent in the audiophile space I could created a setup that would saturate 10GBe.

[plissken]

4 minutes ago, mansr said:

I don't know of anything that fast anywhere. Transferring one hour's worth of music at CD quality in less than one sample interval would require a bandwidth of more than 200 Tbps.

https://www.submarinenetworks.com/en/systems/trans-atlantic/marea/marea-cable-system-reaches-200-tbps-of-capacity

[plissken]

On 2/15/2020 at 11:09 AM, Jud said:

 

Sure. The question is always going to be whether the jitter is at a level that causes concern, whether by virtue of a certain amount of measured distortion or audible noise.

 

Please listen to these two files and tell me what you hear. Note the quality isn't the best because they were made simply by holding an iPhone in front of speakers more than 3 years ago.

 

1A.m4a 3.31 MB · 11 downloads A1.m4a 3.26 MB · 9 downloads

 

1 track is louder (either higher gain, closer mic source, or compression) and for lack of a better term had some ringing and sibilant like quality to it.

 

But both sounded pretty bad.

[plissken]

30 minutes ago, Jud said:

The noise loop involved the Ethernet connection in the system between router and NIC. The reason I know this is because inserting a Baaske Ethernet isolation transformer in that connection reduced the noise/distortion significantly, though it didn't eliminate it altogether.

 

So we know from this that the Ethernet connection between router (or switch) and NIC is capable of being involved in noise loops in the system, perhaps significant enough to be very audible, as this one was, or perhaps not plainly audible, but enough to mask low-level musical detail (or enough to affect the clock in the DAC?).

 

I understand what you are saying but I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. As I wasn't there I have only your word to go on.

 

Are you saying you think an audiophile switch would have solved this? Do you know the type of cabling that was in use? Was the person that set up the system competent? Was any of the network equipment modified as Audiophile owners are want to do?

 

If you think an audiophile switch would solve this how do you know another off the shelf switch wouldn't? What's the possibility of faulty hardware?

 

I know what wow and flutter sound like. What I heard was more ringing and sibilant sound along with a higher noise floor. I did nothing but setup Audio Edit studios for 7 years. I would suggest direct connecting output from the preamp to an ADC with Heaphone Monitor loop. 

 

I'm up for a get together, and in part explore this.

 

What I do know is I have the magical ability to take consumer networking hardware and make it sound indistinguishable from 'solutions' costing multitudes more. 

 

I just spent $214 and went with optical isolation that is 3000% faster.

 

[plissken]

18 minutes ago, Jud said:

The noise loop involved the Ethernet connection in the system between router and NIC. The reason I know this is because inserting a Baaske Ethernet isolation transformer in that connection reduced the noise/distortion significantly, though it didn't eliminate it altogether.

 

I would be willing to bet you that I could have corrected or sourced the problem with out a bandaid that the Basske isolation represents.

[plissken]

31 minutes ago, Jud said:

it had to do with the electrical effect of clock edges being transmitted through the system

 

And when those clock edges were only in use for 5 seconds transferring a 50MB PCM 16/44.1 file?

 

Not sure what "clock edges being transmitted through the system" even means.

[plissken]

Just now, Jud said:

Don't know. I just know that Ethernet connections are capable of being involved in noise loops, and at least some types of noise (for example, leakage current) are what the ER purports to reduce. It's also interesting that another common solution for leakage current, an Ethernet isolation transformer, did reduce the noise/distortion but did not eliminate it.

 

I think f'd up networking is a possibility. It could even be a wiring at the wall jack problem.

 

What I do know is that you were at an event with a compromised system and not a single one of you were capable enough to resolve it without resorting to bandaids.

So that's my take on it.

[plissken]

5 minutes ago, Jud said:

Higher noise floor for sure. However, in the room it definitely sounded like flutter - I dubbed it the "warble."

 

If I have vinyl spinning and I place my finger on the transport to alter it's speed I hear wow and flutter. It's pitch shifting. What I heard was ringing, distortion, higher noise floor.

[plissken]

1 hour ago, Jud said:

 

I see you edited your response.

 

What's interesting is that I resolved the noise loop not on the networking side, which remained the same, but by simplifying the configuration on the power side of the system.

 

Even with optical Ethernet, you're still plugging stuff in. In that regard, I note the ER comes with an inexpensive power supply with a ground shunt for leakage current.

 

T.I.'s paper on radiated emissions of 10/100 Ethernet PHY speaks plainly to the Achilles heel of single ended power supplies on network gear.

[plissken]

1 hour ago, Albrecht said:

Yes... I don't think that the pseudo-science trolls here understand that the etherRegen is not for them. It's not going to work with their rattling Dell optiplex noise-boxes.

 

For one I've reported the post. Two I've decided to leave the post up as an example of behavior that shouldn't be tolerated and I would normally hide.

 

But it's best left up as a PSA.

[plissken]

To anyone that would like to GTG: I've zero issue putting my properly implemented file server and end point computer with ATX PSU and DAC up against any vertical appliance out there.

 

It'll be evaluated blind however.

[plissken]

Just now, Ralf11 said:

and no one has been willing to state what part of your system is so horrible ...

 

According to superdad it's the DAC, the computer. SandyK it's the DAC and Headphones.

[plissken]

43 minutes ago, Albrecht said:

If any person thinks that I was writing anything critical about THEIR system, - that says something about THEIR insecurity. Which i imagine is a big part of a lot of these unwarranted attacks by the "so-called" objectivists  upon SOME high end audio manufacturers.

 

My insecurity has a funny way of manifesting my offer of $2000 to someone else's $500.

 

I guess my insecurity is bigger than yours. If you know what I mean 😉

[plissken]

I have a different take:

 

I could see someone being sour that they simply went out and dropped $4-6K on a streamer, $2k on gadgetry etc seeing $1500 in properly selected components either running neck to neck or even out performing it.

 

 

[plissken]

16 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

If I want Wi-Fi 6 capability, and all the power supplies on my network gear to be balanced, what would you suggest and what would the pricing be like?

 

Edit: One other thing, I would like these not to be potential sources of leakage current.

 

Jud, it's wireless....