The myth of "The Absolute Sound"

[ARQuint]

1 hour ago, barrows said:

 

 

1 hour ago, Allan F said:

 

Simply, I play acoustic guitar and hear the sound of that instrument virtually every day. I also regularly attend piano concerts. I know what an acoustic guitar and a piano should sound like. I can therefore tell whether the output of an audio system, over a sample of recordings, corresponds to what an acoustic guitar or a piano sounds like. This is not intended as an absolute judgement, for example, to the extent that one should be able to readily distinguish a Martin from a Gibson acoustic guitar or a Steinway from a Yamaha concert piano. It refers to the unique timbre of the instrument, generally, as opposed to that of any particular brand, and whether that timbre is reproduced faithfully.

1 hour ago, barrows said:

The above is simply incorrect in practice.  What you actually know, is what the sound of your guitar is like, up against your body, as you play.  this has very little relationship to the sound of someone else's guitar, as heard in a recording.  

I have a Taylor 12 string here which belongs to my GF, which I play a bit from time to time.  I know what it sounds like, both up against my body as I play, and from a small distance as she plays it.  But this is no "absolute" reference for the sound of some other guitar in a recording.

 

It appears here that some seem to think all guitars, or pianos, or any instrument really, sound alike!  Of course we all know that is not true.  Then you add in the additional differences which are the result of recording techniques, and it is easy to see that there is no "absolute" reference for the sound of anything.  We are talking about high end systems here, certainly anyone can tell the difference between a guitar (what is a guitar supposed to sound like...) and an Oud, for example, even on a cheap bedside clock radio.  Those are huge differences and not relevant for evaluating a high end system.

 

 

I'm with Allan F on this. You'll be able to appreciate how well a recording or loudspeaker represents a given instrument's sound whether your experience with "the absolute sound" comes from actually playing in an orchestra, small jazz group, or a band—or from being an audience member (and whether you sit in Row D or Row ZZ.) Our experiences with one version of "the absolute sound" or another can inform our sonic preferences. I loved the visceral sensation I got playing in a big orchestra as an undergraduate at Oberlin and, decades later, it drives my choice of seats in Verizon Hall when I go to hear the Philadelphia Orchestra—we've sat in the front third of the Orchestra for 30 years, Row L in Verizon for the last 18 years. Similarly, I enjoy stereo recordings that provide a "conductor's perspective" or, when multichannel's on the table (hi Fitz!), even an "immersive" approach. There's a participatory sense that's very exciting to me. Getting the tonality and dynamics of real instruments and voices as close to the "absolute sound" is especially important if a close-up sonic viewpoint is your thing.

 

So, yes, there is an "absolute sound". But like the blind men's elephant there are different takes on it, based on experience and preferences.

 

Andrew Quint

Senior writer

TAS

[ARQuint]

3 hours ago, semente said:

 

I think that ARQuint expressed in much better terms what I have been trying to say:

 

4 hours ago, ARQuint said:

Simply, I play acoustic guitar and hear the sound of that instrument virtually every day. I also regularly attend piano concerts. I know what an acoustic guitar and a piano should sound like. I can therefore tell whether the output of an audio system, over a sample of recordings, corresponds to what an acoustic guitar or a piano sounds like. This is not intended as an absolute judgement, for example, to the extent that one should be able to readily distinguish a Martin from a Gibson acoustic guitar or a Steinway from a Yamaha concert piano. It refers to the unique timbre of the instrument, generally, as opposed to that of any particular brand, and whether that timbre is reproduced faithfully.

 

 

Actually, it was Allan F who said this, and I agree. But I'd go further—with the best gear, you should be able to distinguish a Martin from a Gibson.

 

I have two recordings that I find extremely helpful when evaluating equipment. The first is Tone Poems, which has David Grisman and Tony Rice each playing, respectively, a different mandolin and guitar on 16 different selections. The second is demo disc 3 that came with a coffee table book called The Miracle Makers, which celebrates the Stradivari and Guarneri del Gesu instrument making families. On that disc, a single violinist (Elmar Oliveira) plays the opening minute of the Sibelius Violin Concerto on 30 instruments—15 Strads and 15 Guaneris. If an audio system makes every guitar and every mandolin sound kind of the same or you can't, with a little practice, tell a Stradivarius from a Guarneri, that system is not an elite one, at least when it comes to the parameter of tonal accuracy. A biggie, when it comes to delivering "the absolute sound".

 

Andy Quint

[ARQuint]

I've done the experiment using my own system, the "subjects" being audiophiles, violinists, a recording engineer student, and several others. My procedure was been to play a series of the Sibelius snippets, identifying the make of violin. The participants are allowed to take notes. I then play a random series of unknowns, all of them not duplicating the identified violins.

 

I'd love to enlarge the "N" - though I would use a smaller number of examples than I did with earlier tests.

I'd provide 18 of the the one minute Sibelius extracts

 

 6 identified as to violin - 3 Strads and 3 Guarneri del Gesu

 

12 unknowns (and not necessarily 6 Strads and  6 GdGs!)

 

Anyone see a Fair Use problem here?

 

AQ

 

[ARQuint]

2 hours ago, STC said:

 

I congratulate you for being objective. But you can do the experiment to be more reliable by stating:-

 

1) How were the Sibelius snippets recorded? Different microphones, the distance of the microphones and venues can cause significant difference.

 

2) Did you witness the recording process?

 

3) Would you post the 18 samples here?

 

 

 

The engineer for this project was none other than Mark Levinson. The recordings were made in the Recital Hall of the Performing Arts Center at Purchase College in NY. The same microphone was used for all 30 snippets and I'm sure that the soloist maintained the same relationship to the microphone for all—photos, and the sound, demonstrate that he was recorded close-up.

 

I did not witness the recording sessions, in December of 1994. But I've learned that being present for a session doesn't guarantee first hand exposure to the sound the musicians are producing, especially with a studio recording.  I've covered several recording sessions for TAS articles, and no producer will let you sit in the same room as the players. I sat in the control room for sessions at Mechanics Hall in Worcester, MA (for a Reference Recordings SACD) and AIR Studios in London (two Chasing The Dragon D2D recordings—I think that feature's running in the December issue, unless crenca shuts us down😉). The closest I've got is when I accompanied Peter McGrath as he recorded a visiting Russian orchestra in three Miami-area venues.  I heard the performances as an audience member and  had Peter's m-c recordings to compare. He nailed the differences in the orchestra's sonic presentation, as heard in the different halls.

 

As above, I'd love to provide the samples but, as Jud notes, I'd better get permission. The recordings appear to be owned by Bein & Fushi, the rare instrument dealer in Chicago who sponsored the book and accompanying recordings. I'll try reaching out to them.

 

Andy Quint

[ARQuint]

On 10/2/2019 at 6:09 AM, ARQuint said:

 

The engineer for this project was none other than Mark Levinson. The recordings were made in the Recital Hall of the Performing Arts Center at Purchase College in NY. The same microphone was used for all 30 snippets and I'm sure that the soloist maintained the same relationship to the microphone for all—photos, and the sound, demonstrate that he was recorded close-up.

 

I did not witness the recording sessions, in December of 1994. But I've learned that being present for a session doesn't guarantee first hand exposure to the sound the musicians are producing, especially with a studio recording.  I've covered several recording sessions for TAS articles, and no producer will let you sit in the same room as the players. I sat in the control room for sessions at Mechanics Hall in Worcester, MA (for a Reference Recordings SACD) and AIR Studios in London (two Chasing The Dragon D2D recordings—I think that feature's running in the December issue, unless crenca shuts us down😉). The closest I've got is when I accompanied Peter McGrath as he recorded a visiting Russian orchestra in three Miami-area venues.  I heard the performances as an audience member and  had Peter's m-c recordings to compare. He nailed the differences in the orchestra's sonic presentation, as heard in the different halls.

 

As above, I'd love to provide the samples but, as Jud notes, I'd better get permission. The recordings appear to be owned by Bein & Fushi, the rare instrument dealer in Chicago who sponsored the book and accompanying recordings. I'll try reaching out to them.

 

Andy Quint

On 10/2/2019 at 3:19 AM, STC said:

 

I congratulate you for being objective. But you can do the experiment to be more reliable by stating:-

 

1) How were the Sibelius snippets recorded? Different microphones, the distance of the microphones and venues can cause significant difference.

 

2) Did you witness the recording process?

 

3) Would you post the 18 samples here?

 

 

 

I'm happy to report that Suzanne Fushi,  the daughter of Jeffrey Fushi who was responsible for the project and passed away about 15 years ago, has given permission to provide the files as proposed above. That's the good news. The less good is that it's going to be a TAS project, connected to a feature in the magazine. But the files will be up on our website for anyone to use—so someone reassure crenca that he doesn't need to subscribe 😉. Depending on how other things go, we'll have it up sometime before the end of the year. I'll keep AS readers informed, on this thread if it continues to be active, or elsewhere.

Andy