Euphony OS w/Stylus player setup and issues thread

[di-fi]

4 hours ago, Yiakubou said:

Posting this ticket I just submitted to Euphony support here, in case it helps others experiencing similar issue:

 

I've been having the following issue for a long time, even since Euphony v3, although in v3 this was not the case every time and with every version. Since I have v4 this happens every time. I even think I reported this in the past already, but it was never resolved and that ticket is now forgotten I guess...

I am using M2 SSD with my music in a USB housing connected to a USB port of my NUC running Euphony Stylus. Every time I reboot or shut down & power on, either Euphony does not boot properly at all, or the USB SSD is not properly detected, I get messages like library path not found and after a while Euphony freezes, I cannot do anything via web interface (I get Euphony offline message or page not found), the HDD LED is blinking for a very long time and nothing happens. It just freezes or something. I have to do hard reboot and I always got it working only after several attempts. This was quite annoying as I had to deal with this after every update or simply every time I wanted to shut down my Euphony PC.

Now I think I've found a way how to get it working, without several restarts in a kind of trial & error way, although I'm not sure if all these steps are really needed. Anyway, this way always works:
- Clear play queue
- Shut down the PC
- Disconnect the USB SSD
- Power on the PC
- Clear image cache and rebuild library
- Connect the USB SSD
- Unmount the drive, wait a few seconds until Euphony app completely refreshes everything
- Mount again, wait a few seconds until Euphony app completely refreshes everything
- Add Music folder to the library
- Euphony scans the library and everything is fine

It feels like there's a problem with some timing or something or with Euphony trying to do multiple things in parallel with the USB SSD after restart or shut down, resulting in some conflicts and this kind of freeze at the end. Anyway, this way works fine every time. Maybe good to know if other users experience similar issue, or perhaps this info will help you to resolve this kind of behavior.

Hi, it is annoying indeed. All I can say is in my previous configuration I also had part of my library on SSD samsung 970 pro on M2 to usb adapter and largest part of my library on a NAS. And after a while or rebooting or a day? the usb adapter seemed disconnected. The blue light turned off. Sometimes I would reinsert the usb adapter to resolve. I also had to rescan the library on M2 SDD. I found out because music selected from the M2 SSD would not play even though Euphony could see it. Not with the NAS, the library is always there and playing.

Lately I improved my network and when the music from NAS sounded as the ssd over usb I ditched the usb adapter. Music from NAS is 100% reliable with Euphony and sounds very, very close to M2 SSD today. Still working on the network.

 

Do you need to play from USB because you do not have enough PCIe slots on the mobo to accommodate a M2 to PCIe adapter? Because it’s a nuc, right? A M2 to PCIe adapter worked flawless here with the same Samsung 970 pro ssd. I had to sacrifice it because the only pcie slot I have is used for a JCAT network card or fiber net card now (making up my mind). My next mobo will have more than 1 pcie slot. But I am satisfied with music from NAS (for now ;-)

 

Based on the problems I also had I would look in an rother way to store music files or create a different connection. Unless someone here can confirm it has maybe to do with a bios setting, like power saving for usb loosing connection with the mobo after a while.

 

An alternative could be the powered Elfidelity AXF-100 USB. It is continuously powered with good power of your choice and connects to the mobo with included cable. Also good power really elevates the SSD sound quality significantly (in my setup I use 5V Jcat nano or 5V direct form HDplex 400). No pcie slot needed and could work with a nuc IF it has the right usb connectors (fingers crossed).

[di-fi]

PS on the picture above it looks as if the Elfidelity AXF-100 USB card is mounted on the mobo; it can be (without electrical contact) but it is NOT. You can place it anywhere you like, even outside the server. You could isolate the card and build a faraday cage around it only as far as the 1ft blue USB cable allows. I do not use the power over SATA connector (yellow/red/black wire) since I power 5V with a DC (inlet 3.4/1.4 mm) connector next to the USB port. It's not as good as a JCAT usb card but with good power it sounds surprisingly good.

 

Can also be used as USB-out to a DAC or DDC. With good LPS power and good dc cable elevates sound quality dramatically compared to onboard USB ports. Recommended if you run out of PCIe ports and wished you could use something like a JCAT usb card .  

[Evo-No-Revo]

I have an Intel DN2800MT board in a little computer box with a JCAT XE USB for a Euphony Endpoint.  Both externally powered.  I run Euphony server on my PC.  My Atom DN2800MT board has 8gb RAM.

 

I am wondering if the endpoint should be used in ramroot mode?  I figure it comes down to SQ but curious if that is what most people do or at least try.  

 

I am not sure how much it matters on a separate endpoint setup as this.  

[di-fi]

On 4/25/2023 at 9:41 PM, Evo-No-Revo said:

I am wondering if the endpoint should be used in ramroot mode?  I figure it comes down to SQ but curious if that is what most people do or at least try.  

 

Endpoint: 8gb of dual channel memory ensures there is no latency when each song is fully loaded into RAM before playback *.  

 

I think so too, it comes down to SQ, easy to try in your setup. It's a good question and I see where you are coming from BUT if you really want to go there, besides what the Euphony software does, you also should take in consideration:

- the quality, size and speed of RAM memory used in the endpoint

- size of allocated RAM

and possibly:

- the size of played music files to be processed

- what music files you are processing; 1) from local drive in streamer, 2) streamed files from a NAS or 3) a music service.

 

Several users noticed Euphony did/does (V3 vs V4?) not handle buffering the same way for example with streaming from a service vs. (album) streaming from local files. And how would that work out for a dual setup?

 

To achieve optimal dual PC audio performance Euphony optimally configured the Stylus software in both Summus devices. Maybe someone can share the settings? 

 

*  https://power-holdings-inc.com/search?keyword=summus

 

Endpoint: Euphony SUMMUS II 2-Core with I2S and Coax digital outputs. The case is all aluminum to dissipate heat from the 2 core AMD processor and 8gb of dual channel memory ensures there is no latency when each song is fully loaded into RAM before playback. 

 

Sorry you maybe got a partial answer and many questions 😁

[di-fi]

 

Quote

I am using M2 SSD with my music in a USB housing connected to a USB port of my NUC running Euphony Stylus. 

On 4/14/2023 at 3:28 PM, Yiakubou said:

Posting this ticket I just submitted to Euphony support here, in case it helps others experiencing similar issue:

Quote

Every time I reboot or shut down & power on, either Euphony does not boot properly at all, or the USB SSD is not properly detected, I get messages like library path not found and after a while Euphony freezes, I cannot do anything via web interface (I get Euphony offline message or page not found), the HDD LED is blinking for a very long time and nothing happens. It just freezes or something. I have to do hard reboot and I always got it working only after several attempts.

 

Hey @Yiakubou ,

Did you hear back or solve it in an other way?

[Yiakubou]

Hi @di-fi,

 

Robert responded that they are not receiving similar tickets from other users, so it is likely some compatibility issue with the USB interface I am using and that I should try another model. This is strange as it is working on other PC's, both Windows and Linux. Anyway, I've purchased a NAS instead, which is something I wanted to do for some time anyway and that works fine.

[di-fi]

23 hours ago, Yiakubou said:

Hi @di-fi,

 

Robert responded that they are not receiving similar tickets from other users, so it is likely some compatibility issue with the USB interface I am using and that I should try another model. This is strange as it is working on other PC's, both Windows and Linux. Anyway, I've purchased a NAS instead, which is something I wanted to do for some time anyway and that works fine.

Glad you found a solution. Even though also in my experience usb drive and Euphony are not 100% compatible at this moment.

 

I have been giving the home network a lot of thought lately and I just decided to move in the opposite correction and I will try to totally cut off my server and endpoint from the home network to improve SQ. Ditching all optimisation including router and NAS and their LPs + cables , fiber + Ethernet. Everything connected to that 10 meter chain will disappear. 

 

So now for continuing playing local files I have to make a 2Gb M2 drive work connected to the Euphony server over usb 😵‍💫.

For streaming and iPad I will also add a 4g router connected to the Ether Regen located within a meter from server and endpoint ( eR also to be upgraded and replaced soon exclusively with Ethernet cables).

 

Hopefully in the near future streaming SQ will be as good as local files SQ in my setup.

 

We'll see. We'll "hear" actually!

[brucew]

6 minutes ago, di-fi said:

I just decided to move in the opposite correction and i will try to totally cut off my server and endpoint from the home network to improve SQ. Ditching all optimisation including router and NAS, LPs + cables , fiber and DC power, everything connected to that 10 meter chain.

 

So now for playing local files  I have to make a 2Gb M2 drive work connected to the server over usb and for streaming and iPad I will also add a 4g router connected to the ether Regen ( also to be upgraded and replaced soon). 

We'll see. We'll "hear" actually!

A mate has a 4G router dedicated to his HiFi so that it is completely independent of the internet and routers serving the rest of the house. He says the SQ improved significantly just from that. I'll probably try that eventually.

 

I assume you are still employing hardware and software optimisations directly on your server?

[di-fi]

14 minutes ago, brucew said:

A mate has a 4G router dedicated to his HiFi so that it is completely independent of the internet and routers serving the rest of the house. He says the SQ improved significantly just from that. I'll probably try that eventually.

 

I assume you are still employing hardware and software optimisations directly on your server?

If you mean the Euphony server, yes.

 

If that mate by any chance is called Martin, that's how I got introduced to the 4G router solution. I wonder why not more people are using that, specially with SIM data plans being so affordable. Except for Canada, and that's where I live unfortunately. But very likely we'll move to Europe soon, hence my thinking.

(Would be much cheaper to stay in Canada and pay an expensive data plan of course, but everything for SQ , you'll understand i am sure ;-)

 

[sakso136]

22 minutes ago, di-fi said:

Glad you found a solution. Even though also in my experience usb drive and Euphony are not 100% compatible at this moment.

 

I have been giving the home network a lot of thought lately and I just decided to move in the opposite correction and I will try to totally cut off my server and endpoint from the home network to improve SQ. Ditching all optimisation including router and NAS and their LPs + cables , fiber + Ethernet. Everything connected to that 10 meter chain will disappear. 

 

So now for continuing playing local files I have to make a 2Gb M2 drive work connected to the Euphony server over usb 😵‍💫.

For streaming and iPad I will also add a 4g router connected to the Ether Regen located within a meter from server and endpoint ( eR also to be upgraded and replaced soon exclusively with Ethernet cables).

 

Hopefully in the near future streaming SQ will be as good as local files SQ in my setup.

 

We'll see. We'll "hear" actually!

Is there any sq benefit putting ER further away from euphony server?

[di-fi]

9 minutes ago, sakso136 said:

Is there any sq benefit putting ER further away from euphony server?

None i can think of.

 

Unless your server is (in a cupboard/basement) not next to your audio system but you have an endpoint closer by. 

 

I do know some prefer Install eR upstream and some downstream next to the audio system.

 

If the eR is your best switch you would keep it as close as you can downstream.

[brucew]

20 minutes ago, di-fi said:

If you mean the Euphony server, yes.

 

If that mate by any chance is called Martin, that's how I got introduced to the 4G router solution. I wonder why not more people are using that, specially with SIM data plans being so affordable. Except for Canada, and that's where I live unfortunately. But very likely we'll move to Europe soon, hence my thinking.

(Would be much cheaper to stay in Canada and pay an expensive data plan of course, but everything for SQ , you'll understand i am sure ;-)

 

Moving to Europe for better HiFi... now that's commitment to the music! LOL

 

Actually it's Tony @Coherent Systems.

[sakso136]

20 minutes ago, di-fi said:

None i can think of.

 

Unless your server is (in a cupboard/basement) not next to your audio system but you have an endpoint closer by. 

 

I do know some prefer Install eR upstream and some downstream next to the audio system.

 

If the eR is your best switch you would keep it as close as you can downstream.

Thks!

[di-fi]

On 4/14/2023 at 3:28 PM, Yiakubou said:

I am using M2 SSD with my music in a USB housing connected to a USB port of my NUC running Euphony Stylus.

I know you had different problems and you gave up and found a better solution by storing your music files on a NAS. Since my only PCIe slot is occupied with a JCAT netcard and I will isolate from the home network I need a reliable NVMe to USB drive connected to the Euphony server. Not the best solution compared to directly connected to PCIe or NAS(?) but at least I have an LPS powered USB card (until I change MOBO).

It could still be an Euphony problem the way you described but I looked into the USB adapter / housing disconnect problem a little more and found this for general interest:

 

• disconnect is less likely to happen with USB 2 vs. USB 3
• the usb controller chip needs to be the latest version or updated (difficult to verify)
• So far I found JMicron chips and Realtek chips should be used. The more recent the controller chips are the more chance they will not disconnect or give other problems up until USB 3.1
• Look for RTL9210B or JMS583 3d generation controller chip (should be printed on the chip)

• JMS583 A2 – Released Q3 2019 w/ AMD Stability Issues Fixed & Improved Signal Quality for Low Quality USB 10G Cables

• JMS583 A3 – OEM version to support custom features; will gradually replace A2 starting in early 2021.

• swapping the included usb cable if used, also resolved problems 

 

Hopefully useful to someone or please help if you can point me to a stable and reliable NVMe-USB adapter.

 

 

[Tatang]

I have been using euphony v4 for sometime and really like the SQ improvement. I have been thinking to run euphony in 2 machines (1 for euphony server and 1 for euphony Endpoint) and connect both machine using ethernet cable. Will this improve the SQ further?? Please let me know if someone has experience with dual euphony. Thanks

[davide256]

32 minutes ago, Tatang said:

I have been using euphony v4 for sometime and really like the SQ improvement. I have been thinking to run euphony in 2 machines (1 for euphony server and 1 for euphony Endpoint) and connect both machine using ethernet cable. Will this improve the SQ further?? Please let me know if someone has experience with dual euphony. Thanks

Depends. For NOS playback a low power, low noise USB out endpoint helps. But for 7xx/DSD upsampling, I prefer direct server USB connection

[Tatang]

1 hour ago, davide256 said:

Depends. For NOS playback a low power, low noise USB out endpoint helps. But for 7xx/DSD upsampling, I prefer direct server USB connection

Im playing NOS playback in single machine using JCAT USB XE for the usb output to DAC right now. And im planning to move the JCAT USB XE card to stylus EP in different machine then output to DAC. In stylus EP, what processing that CPU do if playing NOS ?? We do not need high power CPU and much RAM channel?? So can feed the EP machine with clean low power quality LPS. The ramroot option in suphony only affect the server duty?? or also EP duty??

[di-fi]

3 hours ago, Tatang said:

and connect both machine using ethernet cable. Will this improve the SQ further??

If you have a good (audiophile) switch connect server and endpoint to it and compare with direct server - endpoint connection.

[di-fi]

1 hour ago, Tatang said:

We do not need high power CPU and much RAM channel?? So can feed the EP machine with clean low power quality LPS. The ramroot option in suphony only affect the server duty??

RAM in the Endpoint will be used to buffer complete songs before playing. How larger these music files (up sampled or whole albums?) the more Endpoint RAM you need to buffer.
 

For a typical file/album play session you could calculate the RAM size you need by looking up Memory Utilization under Temp/CPU .

 

For the OS size you can look under Settings/System /System info : 

 

RAM:	8.2 GB
OS disk free:	635.4 MB

 

You can also look under Settings/Library / Internal drives - hidden to see the memory allocation.

 

I would say on average you probably do need 8GB. Euphony Summus endpoint comes with 8Gb installed (see my previous post 1 day ago). But ultimately it depends your file sizes.
If you also want to play Endpoint in ramroot you need to add 4Gb to the 8Gb.

 

‘With -‘ or ‘without Ramroot’ options are both liked for ‘server only’  and Euphony Stylus. I can not tell you what’s best for your Endpoint but Ramroot is free and easy to apply, your ears will tell you what sounds best in your setup.

[davide256]

42 minutes ago, Tatang said:

Im playing NOS playback in single machine using JCAT USB XE for the usb output to DAC right now. And im planning to move the JCAT USB XE card to stylus EP in different machine then output to DAC. In stylus EP, what processing that CPU do if playing NOS ?? We do not need high power CPU and much RAM channel?? So can feed the EP machine with clean low power quality LPS. The ramroot option in suphony only affect the server duty?? or also EP duty??

There is very little CPU load in Stylus endpoint NOS mode, even an Atom processor will run at 10% or less. The big resource need is enough free RAM to hold an entire track, DSD or 768/32 PGGB files will require 8GB RAM as Stylus buffers entire track and a track  can be 5GB  in size. 

[Tatang]

44 minutes ago, di-fi said:

If you have a good (audiophile) switch connect server and endpoint to it and compare with direct server - endpoint connection.

 

I used modded cisco meraki switch (without OCXO mod) with LPS. Im playing from local files in the server, not streaming so will it affect the SQ?? the switch only for euphony control and isolating the home network.

[Tatang]

So in endpoint, the CPU operation is not critical if using NOS playback. But the need for big amount of RAM for buffering. Now i get the whole point of end point operation. So the EP will buffer the whole playlist before pass it through USB to DAC. Thanks so much for the info guys, i really appreciate it.

[di-fi]

Someone who does only streaming does not need to worry so much since Euphony will only buffer 2 songs it seems. 

You indicate playing local files so with modes like :

• Buffer songs to RAM - album mode
• play and relax (Ethernet disconnect while playing)
• DSD or 768/32 PGGB (see Dave above)

you even might consider 16Gb. Looking up memory allocation in Euphony settings will help determine a sufficient amount of RAM

 

[di-fi]

7 hours ago, Tatang said:

 

I used modded cisco meraki switch (without OCXO mod) with LPS. Im playing from local files in the server, not streaming so will it affect the SQ?? the switch only for euphony control and isolating the home network.

Before going off topic;

 

A (unique) switch and it’s PSU will always affect the SQ, the more downstream the more obvious. Using more than one switch or cascading switches is different in that the most benefit could come from more upstream, hard to generalize. But the last switch still is very important.

There are observations that with a (very) good switch connected directly to the server/player local files from that server/player (usb out) sound better. Disconnecting that switch will degrade the sound!

 

But the opposite can be possible as well. Usually to improve SQ, isolation of a switch is important for example with a fibre connection or a ‘moat’ like the EtherRegen that separates the ‘a‘ and ‘b’ sides of the switch.

 

A lot of info regarding switches and how to best connect them can be found here on AS.

[davide256]

10 hours ago, Tatang said:

So in endpoint, the CPU operation is not critical if using NOS playback. But the need for big amount of RAM for buffering. Now i get the whole point of end point operation. So the EP will buffer the whole playlist before pass it through USB to DAC. Thanks so much for the info guys, i really appreciate it.

Stylus endpoint only buffers current track + start of next. You can cache entire playlist at the Stylus server.

Other solutions like Roon endpoint chunk the track, have a rotating window, so much smaller RAM needs.