Mytek Stereo 192

[ted_b]

Guillame,

Welcome to CA.

1) Now look about six posts up from this one and you'll see my Apple remote picture I spent time posting, and the menu button, etc. That is exactly what I said it would do. Why not use it for you input switching question; it seems you know something about MAcs and multiple remotes, so just use one for this. Any learning remote can be programmed to do this, but the Apple wand is a preset and very easy to set up (once firmware 1.7 is released).

2) Michal is the developer of the Mytek, so he should know. Additionally, the Sonore eXD DAC also goes DSD to analog without switching to PCM; I have a direct email from them saying so. It's not impossible. But to further this, here are Michal's words:

"Ok,the way DSD is implemented in our DAC:

DSD 1 bit> digital DSD 3 pole filter @ selectable 50,60 or 70kHz>6 bit output > 6 bit DAC. The filter, standard in all sacd players (typically analog) helps to filter out of band noise inherent n DSD. Such filtering requires multiplication which produces result in more bits than the 1bit input. It's actually in away better than 1 bit because all info is preserved but 6 bit conversion is more accurate than 1 bit. It's better to keep it at 6 bits than round it to 1 bit, for example. We are still talking about 64xFS stream of 6 bit data , NOT any PCM."

[Guillaume Girard]

Hi,

 

Thanks for the welcome

 

1. Yep I saw that. But you need to do menu then knob knob knob until you hit the right input.

So you have to be able to see the led panel. I'd like to have one button for firewire and another one for optical.

doable ?

 

2. Well if it goes through the I2S, then it is converted to PCM. So I still need to know if at any time during the process, it uses the I2S...

 

G.

[ted_b]

Hi,

 

Thanks for the welcome

 

1. Yep I saw that. But you need to do menu then knob knob knob until you hit the right input.

So you have to be able to see the led panel. I'd like to have one button for firewire and another one for optical.

doable ?

 

2. Well if it goes through the I2S, then it is converted to PCM. So I still need to know if at any time during the process, it uses the I2S...

 

G.

 

1) My first recommendation is that you read the manual. Simply set FN1 button for firewire and FN2 button for toslink. Then press them blindly from your easy chair.

2) Do you have a reason to suspect I2S? Do other I2S DACs sound bad to you?

[Guillaume Girard]

1. EXCELLENT I read the manual and did not see that fn1 and fn2 could be assigned directly to a source ! Thanks

2. Yep. Listened to another DSD DAC and was deceived. Apparently because DSD is sent through I2S and therefore is converted to PCM.

[ted_b]

1. EXCELLENT I read the manual and did not see that fn1 and fn2 could be assigned directly to a source ! Thanks

2. Yep. Listened to another DSD DAC and was deceived. Apparently because DSD is sent through I2S and therefore is converted to PCM.

What DAC was that?

[Julietta Ferrona]

What DAC was that?

 

3D Lab. DSD via USB.

[ted_b]

? Are you answering for the other poster? A few more details would help. The 3D Labs Millenium MkII never said it would do DSD, at least to the reviews and info I have ever read. Many DACs or players will convert DSD to PCM on the fly, but that is not what i would call deception. But if it is another 3D Labs dac, then please let us know. And if DoP (DSD over PCm) is not implemented correctly then PCM will be the result (or hiss).

[valenroy]

Oh man... these two guys sound so fishy... look at the two names and the number of posts they have and the kind of predicament they are putting themselves in. Are you (with multiple usernames) here to create trouble or something?

[Guillaume Girard]

Oh man... these two guys sound so fishy... look at the two names and the number of posts they have and the kind of predicament they are putting themselves in. Are you (with multiple usernames) here to create trouble or something?

 

Sorry about that.

I'm using Facebook to login so I didn't realise my girlfriend logged in on my computer, hence the two names.

And no I am not here to create trouble.

 

To answer your question, I have an email from 3D Lab saying that yes they support DSD when using USB 2.0 (supported on Windows, Mac, Linux) but they convert it to PCM.

And apparently it would be the only way, despite what other vendors might say.

I'm not saying this, I am merely searching information on this.

So this is why I ask this question, hoping Mytek or Sonore might answer clearly this.

 

Thanks and sorry for the inconvenience.

 

G.

[valenroy]

My apologies as well Gerard.

 

As for your request, I believe Ted has quoted Michal's response to the question. However, if you are to go back a few pages, I remember Michal mentioning about multi-bit delta-sigma modulation of the DSD signal and there is no intermittent conversion to PCM before the analog output. You might have to tow through a few pages to get to that.

[labjr]

Sorry about that.

I'm using Facebook to login so I didn't realise my girlfriend logged in on my computer, hence the two names.

And no I am not here to create trouble.

 

To answer your question, I have an email from 3D Lab saying that yes they support DSD when using USB 2.0 (supported on Windows, Mac, Linux) but they convert it to PCM.

And apparently it would be the only way, despite what other vendors might say.

I'm not saying this, I am merely searching information on this.

So this is why I ask this question, hoping Mytek or Sonore might answer clearly this.

 

Thanks and sorry for the inconvenience.

 

G.

 

 

Mytek and Sonore use the new DoP open standard. It does not convert the DSD to PCM but uses the PCM frames to transfer the DSD data. It still is decoded as native DSD at the DAC after it's removed from the PCM frames.

 

DoP open Standard | DSD-Guide.com

[ted_b]

Labjr

Thanks for that.

 

Guillame,

It is unfair to blame Mytek, Meitner, Sonore/exD for any misleading info when it is clear 3D labs doesn't know anything about DoP. They are the misleading ones, if any. Please see labjr's links to get educated on what DoP is. We have discussed it literally dozens and dozens of times here, so a search here on CA would help too. It is NOT PCM conversion (assuming the DAC on the other end can accept the DSF or diff DSD file)

[Guillaume Girard]

Who is blaming who ?

[Guillaume Girard]

Mytek and Sonore use the new DoP open standard. It does not convert the DSD to PCM but uses the PCM frames to transfer the DSD data. It still is decoded as native DSD at the DAC after it's removed from the PCM frames.

 

Simple and precise. Thanks a lot for your answer.

And sorry for not being able to find it in this forum in the first place.

[ted_b]

Who is blaming who ?

 

 

To answer your question, I have an email from 3D Lab saying that yes they support DSD when using USB 2.0 (supported on Windows, Mac, Linux) but they convert it to PCM and apparently it would be the only way, despite what other vendors might say.

 

Gee, I don't know. 3D Labs maybe??

 

It seems you were believing them rather than taking our information. So much so that I went so far as quoting the actual developer of Mytek on your specific question, yet you directly responded and refused to believe, instead saying that it must be converted (to Isquared S), since 3D Labs says so. This has been like the fifth response since then.

[Guillaume Girard]

Labjr

It is unfair to blame Mytek, Meitner, Sonore/exD for any misleading info when it is clear 3D labs doesn't know anything about DoP. They are the misleading ones, if any.

 

Wow wow wow, easy

Nobody's blaming nobody.

3D Lab just told me what they do and I am the one assuming things, using stuff I've read on the web.

Obviously Mytek and Sonore are not converting to PCM.

And it was not my intention to blame anyone.

[Guillaume Girard]

This has been like the fifth response since then.

 

I "refused to believe" ?

Just asking for answers and arguments.

Ted, I've said I'm sorry quite a few times, and I'm not even sure why.

Maybe nobody needs to get angry. This is not religion (well maybe it is ) or politics.

Just a guy trying to politely get answers and whose only mistake is not being smart enough to be able to find them using the search function...

Let's just forget all about this ok ?

I've learnt a few things and now everybody knows that 3D Lab does not use DoP yet.

[ted_b]

Ok, maybe it's me not taking this discussion right...my bad. Whatever the reason, I'm glad you got it straightened out and understand that these DSD DACs (especially the Mytek since this is its thread ) can do pure native DSD and yet have it be carried over a PCM signal path. Kind of like riding a horse doesn't make you a horse (as long as the stable owner recognizes you from his horse you borrowed) .

[Guillaume Girard]

Yep, got it !

And I'll spread the word

This kind of technique is used everyday in IT networking. ProtocolOverProtocol stuff.

My Mytek order has been placed !

[barrows]

Well…

 

"2. In page 2 of this thread, Michael from Mytek (thanks for answering our questions BTW) states DSD is transformed DIRECTLY to analog, without using PCM.

Other DSD DAC manufacturers (3D Lab, Sonore) claim that it is not possible and that Mytek, as well as them, convert to I2S (which is PCM) first.

Can we get a definitive answer from Mytek ?

Do you convert DSD to I2S ?"

 

This can be a very confusing question to answer for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that people do not agree on what "native" DSD conversion really is. Almost all (but not all, for instance Meitner and EMM are exceptions) current DAC chips convert DSD as a multi bit format, not a single bit stream. Many people do not consider this type of conversion as converting DSD to PCM though: as an example, say a DAC like dCS, which converts all data to analog using a 6 bit (or is it 5, in any case, more than 1) SDM modulator. So, the dCS DAC first converts single bit DSD to a multibit format, but, it does not down convert the DSD sample rate. So, do we call this "native" DSD conversion? Most people do, apparently because the sample rate of DSD is not reduced to a common PCM value. There are very, very few DACs which maintain a single bit data path for DSD conversion. The ESS chip in the Mytek operates in a similar fashion to the dCS described, converting DSD to a 6 or 7 bit format, but with no downsampling of the incoming DSD SR.

 

The second part of your question concerns I2S: while nominally this is a format which is "PCM", the ESS DAC chip used in the Mytek can be set up to accept DSD on the exact same pins as I2S, and the chip itself auto switches from PCM to DSD mode when it detects DSD data on those pins. So, technically, it may use the same physical path as I2S inside the DAC, this does not mean there is any conversion to PCM involved, it just means that the DSD data is carried on the same circuit board traces, to the same input pins on the DAC chip. To conclude: because of the above, using something nominally known as I2S, does not indicate PCM only, it can just as easily be DSD carried on the same format of wiring/PCB traces.

 

BTW, the Sonore/exD DSD DAC does convert directly from DSD to analog.

[Miska]

There are at least five chips that can do direct conversion of DSD without converting to multi-bit SDM. Two from Cirrus Logic, two from Wolfson and one from Niigata Seimitsu. All of these allow using same pins used for I2S for DSD too, in addition Cirrus Logic also supports separate DSD input pins (the way I'm using it). This is handled by switching the DAC mode.

 

AKM works similar way as ESS by remodulating to multi-bit SDM, this is also available as an option in Cirrus Logic.

 

I think Burr-Brown converts to 352.8k PCM which is also an option in Wolfson.

[Esprit]

This way, you can use Apple Remote A to control your Mytek and Apple Remote B to control your Mac, without the two interfering.

My universal remote, used for the Mytek, costs 8,99€, has the backlight, all the buttons and functions

[Esprit]

To answer your question, I have an email from 3D Lab saying that yes they support DSD when using USB 2.0 (supported on Windows, Mac, Linux) but they convert it to PCM.

What is the chip used in 3d Lab DAC? Sabre32 manages the DSD natively.

[ted_b]

Sabre32 manages the DSD natively.

 

I've got my popcorn. Let the fun begin....

[labjr]

Not sure what chip 3D Lab uses. But the USB interface also has to be capable of doing DoP or other type of DSD transfer and then implemented. Because from what I understand any XMOS based USB to I2S board won't just transfer DSD transparently unless the entire DAC logic etc is set up to do so.

 

BTW if this is confusing I wonder what will happen when everyone is squeezing their protocols through the Thunderbolt pipeline?