Why Do People Come To Computer Audiophile To Display Their Contempt For Audiophiles?

[fas42]

I was again reminded of a demo by the makers of the DEQX gear at an audio club meeting I attended some years ago - the design of this powerful DSP component is done locally, in Sydney. They used a decent setup, measured its response down to the 0.1 dB level or whatever, did all the sorting out on the laptop while we watched, and then ran the uncorrected rig against the same corrected to a millimetere of itself, as a comparison. "Now, isn't that so much better!" they exclaimed in triumph ... ummm, no - sounded different, but the problems and limitations of the sound in itself were still all there - stereo A vs. stereo B, I wasn't impressed either way.

 

The excitement people experience when the numbers look good is quite something ...

[mmerrill99]

I presume you've been to audio showrooms & yet not once have you done any measurements there with your backpacked equipment?

 

I see

 

QED

[esldude]

5 minutes ago, mmerrill99 said:

I presume you've been to audio showrooms & yet not once have you done any measurements there with your backpacked equipment?

 

I see

 

QED

Well the last showroom closer than 120 miles of me was something like 10 years ago.  So not since then has one been local.  I believe I have only been in showrooms while out of town twice since then.  Neither was a planned trip, so no I didn't have the gear to measure with me.

 

 

[mmerrill99]

28 minutes ago, esldude said:

Well the last showroom closer than 120 miles of me was something like 10 years ago.  So not since then has one been local.  I believe I have only been in showrooms while out of town twice since then.  Neither was a planned trip, so no I didn't have the gear to measure with me.

 

 

So you are relying on others measurements or you are measuring the equipment taken home on pot luck (no measurements available or done in the showroom) - pretty much the same as the subjectivist who takes note of other people's listening impressions, listen themselves in the showroom but ultimately listens to the equipment on their own system.

 

Except that after all your measurements, you also listen & then make your decision (or do you?).

 

Whereas the subjectivist makes their decision without the pre-bias of measurements.

[esldude]

1 hour ago, mmerrill99 said:

So you are relying on others measurements or you are measuring the equipment taken home on pot luck (no measurements available or done in the showroom) - pretty much the same as the subjectivist who takes note of other people's listening impressions, listen themselves in the showroom but ultimately listens to the equipment on their own system.

 

Except that after all your measurements, you also listen & then make your decision (or do you?).

 

Whereas the subjectivist makes their decision without the pre-bias of measurements.

Actually, most recent purchases were made with no auditioning of any kind.  Just the specs vs my needs. Yes, those were also measured by someone else so I wasn't just at the mercy of the vendor being honest.

 

The showroom you seem locked in on is a complete non-issue for me as there are none around.  I would venture most people buying gear are in a similar situation today. 

 

You might find understanding my approach easier if you remember, it is my opinion, other than gear designed to have a particular sound, everything between the transducers is not detectable with a slight exception for matching amps to speakers. And exceptions for low quality gear which has sub-standard measured performance.

[Teresa]

11 hours ago, esldude said:

It's too sweeping.  Sometimes the measurement is easier.  Take an audible minor FR issue. In the time spent listening to one song you could do a very accurate measure finding out more easily than listening how important the FR deficiencies are.

 

I see no advantage in spending thousands of dollars on test equipment just to possibly save a few bucks on an audio purchase. I would rather buy music or just about anything else. 

 

I’m sure many people's testing equipment costs more than my entire audio/video system including my computer. From what I can see on this forum, me being a tightwad subjectivist is much less expensive than being an objectivist with tons of testing equipment.

 

11 hours ago, fas42 said:

For me, listening is such an instantaneous feedback mechanism that measuring would be a huge waste of time, and highly likely tell me nothing of value - either I can hear flaws in the sound, or I can't; the word "better" is meaningless to me...

 

I agree.

 

10 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

Is it also ridiculous to expect manufacturers to provide measurements? Or reviewers, for that matter? I don't expect to measure components in a show room, but I expect their measurements to be available for me to evaluate, before I pull the trigger.

 

9 hours ago, mmerrill99 said:

A fully comprehensive set of measurements that will tell you how something will sound when put in your system & your room - yes, it's ridiculous!!

 

9 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

I don't disagree with it, because 'a fully comprehensive set of measurements' are just a start for me. A necessary part, but not my entire evaluation process...

 

I agree, just a start. I use manufacturer specifications (measurements) to verify a competent design meeting my minimum requirements. However, measurements alone don’t tell me how something will sound.

 

Except for loudspeakers, most modern components measure pretty much the same, however they don’t sound the same when using human ears. That is why buying is risky, I need to hear it first to see if I like the sound and if my natural-sounding audiophile recordings sound realistic to me, and I need a satisfaction money-back guarantee if they don’t when I get the component(s) home and into my listening room.

 

1 hour ago, esldude said:

Actually, most recent purchases were made with no auditioning of any kind.  Just the specs vs my needs. Yes, those were also measured by someone else so I wasn't just at the mercy of the vendor being honest.

 

The showroom you seem locked in on is a complete non-issue for me as there are none around.  I would venture most people buying gear are in a similar situation today.

 

Nowadays that is a real problem. The internet and Best Buy have killed most of the local stereo stores in my city as well. To hear new audio equipment in a listening room one usually now has to go to audio shows. I would dread trying to replace my system now, especially my speakers. When I bought them there were over 10 stereo stores in my town, and I listened to speakers in all of them before making my decision.

[pkane2001]

2 hours ago, Teresa said:

I agree, just a start. I use manufacturer specifications (measurements) to verify a competent design meeting my minimum requirements. However, measurements alone don’t tell me how something will sound.

Yes, we agree, Teresa.

 

2 hours ago, Teresa said:

Except for loudspeakers, most modern components measure pretty much the same, however they don’t sound the same when using human ears. 

That's where we disagree. You just need to look at some of the measurement websites where you can find a variety of components producing a large amount of distortion, jitter, non-linearity. Some of these come from high-end manufacturers that refuse to do their own measurements,  preferring to design 'by ear'. Others from manufacturers that are knowingly introducing distortion in the hope that customers will like that sonic signature. That's precisely why I want to see measurements before I buy -- I don't want to hear someone else's idea of what music should sound like. I'd like the music to be reproduced as closely as possible to the way it was mastered and recorded.

[mmerrill99]

6 hours ago, esldude said:

Actually, most recent purchases were made with no auditioning of any kind.  Just the specs vs my needs. Yes, those were also measured by someone else so I wasn't just at the mercy of the vendor being honest.

Ok, at least that's consistent. And have you ever returned any of these products after auditioning them?

6 hours ago, esldude said:

You might find understanding my approach easier if you remember, it is my opinion, other than gear designed to have a particular sound, everything between the transducers is not detectable with a slight exception for matching amps to speakers. And exceptions for low quality gear which has sub-standard measured performance.

Sure, I know your approach & many others is that all gear, except transducers, sounds the same but this isn't borne our in reality so I don't subscribe to your approach.

3 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

That's precisely why I want to see measurements before I buy -- I don't want to hear someone else's idea of what music should sound like. I'd like the music to be reproduced as closely as possible to the way it was mastered and recorded.

If you can't judge the sound without measurements then it's a sad indictment of someone involved in an audio hobby

[pkane2001]

2 minutes ago, mmerrill99 said:

If you can't judge the sound without measurements then it's a sad indictment of someone involved in an audio hobby

 

And you keep putting words into my mouth. Do you have an agenda by any chance?

 

I can certainly judge an inferior design by looking at measurements. I never said that I judge a well-designed piece of equipment by measurements alone.

[AJ Soundfield]

6 hours ago, esldude said:

You might find understanding my approach easier if you remember, it is my opinion, other than gear designed to have a particular sound, everything between the transducers is not detectable with a slight exception for matching amps to speakers. And exceptions for low quality gear which has sub-standard measured performance.

 

6 minutes ago, mmerrill99 said:

Sure, I know your approach & many others is that all gear, except transducers, sounds the same but this isn't borne our in reality so I don't subscribe to your approach.

If you can't judge the sound without measurements then it's a sad state of affairs

Reading comprehension failure or intellectual dishonesty.

Speaking of sad state of affairs.

[mmerrill99]

3 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

And you keep putting words into my mouth. Do you have an agenda by any chance?

6 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

That's precisely why I want to see measurements before I buy ........ I'd like the music to be reproduced as closely as possible to the way it was mastered and recorded.

I read your quote above as saying that you use measurements to judge if the music is "reproduced as closely as possible to the way it was mastered and recorded."

 

So what possible role can listening have?

 

3 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

I never said that I judge a well-designed piece of equipment by measurements alone.

As above

 

[pkane2001]

2 hours ago, mmerrill99 said:

I read your quote above as saying that you use measurements to judge if the music is "reproduced as closely as possible to the way it was mastered and recorded."

 

So what possible role can listening have?

 

As above

 

Simple logic. I do A to ensure B does not imply that A is the only thing I do to ensure B.  A is a necessary but not sufficient condition. Makes sense?

[mfsoa]

But PKane, what do you do if a component that sounds great doesn't measure well? I had a VAC preamp that sounded glorious. Probably a thousand times more distortion, worse freq response etc. etc. compared to a SS pre. But it sounded great. I thought so, everyone that heard it thought so. 

 

So what would you do? Would you get rid of the better sounding component for one that measures better and clearly sound inferior?

[mmerrill99]

19 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

Simple logic. I do A to ensure B does not imply that A is the only thing I do to ensure B.  A is a necessary but not sufficient condition. Makes sense?

Ah so you listen & then mfsoa's question becomes relevant

But I suspect I know the answer - your are so biased by your measurements that you don't hear anything that your measurements don't show will be audible!

[AJ Soundfield]

12 minutes ago, mfsoa said:

Probably a thousand times more distortion, worse freq response etc. etc. compared to a SS pre.

Probably? IOW, you have no idea.

 

Quote

But it sounded great. I thought so, everyone that heard it thought so. 

IOW, you can't discern between preference, opinion or fact.

 

Newcastle is the best tasting beer because I said so.

By sheer coincidence, I prefer it.

[pkane2001]

16 minutes ago, mmerrill99 said:

Ah so you listen & then mfsoa's question becomes relevant

But I suspect I know the answer - your are so biased by your measurements that you don't hear anything that your measurements don't show will be audible!

 

I work hard to control my biases by checking measurements, studying designs, and comparing components blind, if possible. Do you do anything to control yours?

[semente]

23 minutes ago, mfsoa said:

But PKane, what do you do if a component that sounds great doesn't measure well? I had a VAC preamp that sounded glorious. Probably a thousand times more distortion, worse freq response etc. etc. compared to a SS pre. But it sounded great. I thought so, everyone that heard it thought so. 

 

So what would you do? Would you get rid of the better sounding component for one that measures better and clearly sound inferior?

 

That is a matter of taste, meaning that some people find some types of distortion pleasant whilst other don't.

 

Measurements, as you've rightly implied, don't take taste into account; this means that equipment better measured performance may or may not sound better but will certainly provide a more accurate reproduction of the recorded signal.

[mmerrill99]

10 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

I work hard to control my biases by checking measurements, studying designs, and comparing components blind, if possible. Do you do anything to control yours?

From what you have said so far you don't listen before looking at measurements - I consider this just another form of biasing. 

[mmerrill99]

7 minutes ago, semente said:

 

That is a matter of taste, meaning that some people find some types of distortion pleasant whilst other don't.

 

Measurements, as you've rightly implied, don't take taste into account; this means that equipment better measured performance may or may not sound better but will certainly provide a more accurate reproduction of the recorded signal.

Surely this blanket statement can't be made - it depends on the limitations of the set of measurements that are being compared 

[pkane2001]

3 minutes ago, mmerrill99 said:

From what you have said so far you don't listen before looking at measurements - I consider this just another form of biasing. 

You didn't answer my question.

[semente]

14 minutes ago, mmerrill99 said:

Surely this blanket statement can't be made - it depends on the limitations of the set of measurements that are being compared 

 

I don't fully grasp what you are trying to say.

 

As far as I understand, an adequate measurement of a a specific parameter only serve to quantify it.

 

 

In this example, one can verify that this DAC produces a bit of euphonic harmonic distortion in the bass region; some people will enjoy it, others won't.

[mmerrill99]

5 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

You didn't answer my question.

Do I try to control my biases? Well I don't pre-condition myself with measurements

 

I listen & judge what I hear mostly by exposing myself to the device over a long time with various music

Sometimes I A/B if I'm unsure about something specific but that is usually to listen to some isolated aspect that I might think is different. The general character of the sound is what I'm judging. 

 

So you don't listen without having examined measurements first? 

[mmerrill99]

1 minute ago, semente said:

 

I don't fully grasp what you are trying to say.

 

As far as I understand, an adequate measurement of a a specific parameter only serve to quantify it.

 

 

In this example, one can verify that this DAC produces a bit of euphonic harmonic distortion; some people will enjoy it, others won't.

A DAC may perform well in the FR area with simple test signals but not so well with more complex signals.

FR measurements don't tell all - what I'm saying is that sounding better may not be due to euphonic distortions - there may well be other reasons not measured. So in all cases you are limited by the scope & types of measurements done.

 

If we all agree that measurements don't tell us how something will sound then we can't use measurements as the yardstick by which to judge the sound of something 

[pkane2001]

6 minutes ago, mmerrill99 said:

Do I try to control my biases? Well I don't pre-condition myself with measurements

 

I listen & judge what I hear mostly by exposing myself to the device over a long time with various music

Sometimes I A/B if I'm unsure about something specific but that is usually to listen to some isolated aspect that I might think is different. The general character of the sound is what I'm judging. 

 

So you don't listen without having examined measurements first? 

 

So the answer is, no, you don't attempt to control your biases at all. 

 

I pick components by researching them first. That includes looking at measurements. I don't go to show rooms or shows and pick what sounds good to me at the time. I don't go by ad copy. I also don't pick components based on reviews of folks that do purely uncontrolled, subjective listening.

 

[semente]

2 minutes ago, mmerrill99 said:

A DAC may perform well in the FR area with simple test signals but not so well with more complex signals.

FR measurements don't tell all - what I'm saying is that sounding better may not be due to euphonic distortions - there may well be other reasons not measured. So in all cases you are limited by the scope & types of measurements done.

 

If we all agree that measurements don't tell us how something will sound then we can't use measurements as the yardstick by which to judge the sound of something 

 

Listening will tell you how an equipment sounds whilst measuring will tell you how it performs in the measured parameters: a frequency response measurement will tell you about the frequency response.

You need a comprehensive set of measurements to fully characterize performance as much as you possible can.

Some of these measurements, like frequency response, have a more immediate correlation than others.

 

I use both but I do my best not to "taste" the sound, trying instead by using specific material to identify shortcomings.