Amir at ASR claims Uptone won't sell the ISO regen to him...

[Albrecht]

1 hour ago, rb2013 said:

In the end even blind ABX testing suffers from inference flaws...that is the testers hearing and subjective preferences, equipment, room, etc...are different then yours.  So the 'inference' is that the device in question will yield the same sound effects in your system as it did when they heard it.

 

Sorry measurement testing of the kind Amir is talking about (measure the end point of a very long digital source chain), is worse.  Why? Obviously it still leave one more major 'inference' that of course the measurement with correlate with greater musical enjoyment.

 

Now with USB it's worse as you can have a whole host of devices interacting with each other, and the power supplies to each having a major influence.  The permutations are nearly endless.  So if device A yields a 10% measurement gain, and device B a 20%, if is likley the combination of the two will yield a 30% gain.  Maybe they work against each other - and the net result is zero.

 

This goal of striving for an object universial yardstick in a subject field is fools gold.

Jabbr is right. This is a very toxic thread. I am reminded by Chris' wise words, no one is going to change anyone else's opinion here.

My frustration comes from the fact that the name of this site is "Computer Audiophile." So one would think that somewhere here, one would encounter an, guess what?, AUDIOPHILE. But to some, that word is synonymous with "liar."

However, to someone who has built up many, many, many, experiences with all different kinds of equipment, - it comes across as hostile envy. After all, how can you deny what someone has heard, (or not), if you were not there beside them?

Specifically with the IsoRegen: these products are NOT for the less-than-$1000 system owners. If one owns a $300 DAC & commensurate amps/speakers, - it's likely an "out of proportion" expense. Very few people purchase products out of context. Who buys $3000 speaker cables for $1500 speakers?

The Regen has its most notable affect with an USB bus on a multi-function computer. It is not the only product that has an affect on the USB signal. Any good investigation to determine effectiveness of a product is going to include listening tests. Mad speculation about how it sounds, based on some necessarily cursory measurement criteria, and not "tested" in the context from which it has been designed; is indeed a fool's errand. If one is listening to music through a 2005 laptop & Sharp boombox; (& there's nothing wrong with that), one really needs to recuse oneself from the conversation, as one is waaaaay out of scope.

[Albrecht]

2 minutes ago, AJ Soundfield said:

No, he did a subjective listening comparison of 2 widgets. He said he had no idea of what was in each.

There is no details of any measures to account for bias.

He simply listened to 2 widgets and preferred one to the other. Hence my suggestion of a separate thread, as this is unrelated to the thread title.

There is almost nothing but mundane statements of facts that fit into the realm of what is termed "objective."

 

Example, - A Manley Stingray is an integrated amplifier that employs the use of Tubes/Valves.

 

EVERYTHING is subjective, do you make the SUBJECTIVE choice of using Vishay or another brand of resistors? You do so because you think that they sound good for the price. Do you use Cardas lead free wire or some other brand of wire? What kind of transformer in the power supply sounds better?

When one compares a McIntosh amplifier to a LAMM, both sound EXACTLY like the manufacturer intended them to sound, they both sound different, and each represents that manufacturer's subjective opinion on what GOOD SOUND is to them.....

You made the SUBJECTIVE determination that an Intona makes your system "SOUND BETTER" with it than without it. All choices are subjective....

[Albrecht]

Just now, semente said:

 

"sounds good" makes sense to the listener but is worthless information for others.

This is why I defend that sound assessment through listening should be performed from an "observationist" perspective, leaving out personal preference; trying to identify shortcomings instead of "tasting".

I hear your point, - but this paradigm is ALL personal preference. We are here to enhance the experience of listening to recordings that cause to us enjoy our musical listening experience more.

This is always highly personal and inextricably unique to us as individuals and our environment. No two people here share the same speakers amps and sources (and especially, listening rooms). A set of 9 ft tall Rockport speakers won't even fit into some spaces. And as I mentioned, some people are listening to systems that will not benefit in any way whatever from some USB bus "improvement" products.

Classical music sucks up less than 4% of my 35,000 song DB. If it was 90% I would own dramatically different gear.

Ultimately, (allow it is laudable), these are our stereos, our music, our room. I do enjoy helping others, but certainly not at the expense of enriching my own experience.

[Albrecht]

2 minutes ago, crenca said:

 

Not picking on you Albrecht in any way - just the latest example.

 

This thread is a reflection of a wider dilemma found in the modern condition (something Christopher3393 and I are yammering about) as much it is about "audiophildom".  The voodoo artists manufactures take direct advantage of this.  I think it is a  good thing everyone is a bit worked up about it - it is a sign that we don't like a position vis-a-vis the "truth" of the matter and groping for a way out, a more solid ground upon which we can judge and say something relevant to the truth.  However, we are not there yet

 

Hear your good point.... But these products are "artisan" products that are designed to be an unique and idiosyncratic interpretation of "good sound" by the manufacturer/designer who makes them. I am not saying that it is any way VooDoo. I have spoken at length to the person who manufactures a certain tube amp and he has no interest at all in designing amps and systems that make rock music sound good. He is not interested in building an all-around system. He makes SET amps and likes to make them sound great with speakers with large, lumbering, woofers. He wants his amps to sound great with Tchaikovsky. He has never heard the Clash, and doesn't want anyone playing the Clash on his system. He tells people, - if you like the Clash, - go buy someone else's stuff. He has ZERO interest in building a good, "all-around" system for people who might want to hear a "group" with a drum kit. My point, is that there is not "Truth" only interpretations of an artistic experience on the basis personal and opinionated viewpoints on what is "good art."

[Albrecht]

21 minutes ago, AJ Soundfield said:

No, since you have no clue what "sound" they intended. Amplifiers are wired to loudspeakers, not ears.

Loudspeaker/room sound varies all over. Worse, if the amp has high output impedance designed to have its own "sound", then the "sound" will vary all over with speaker impedances. That's lots of "sounds" to obscure any imagined "intent".

 

 

Well. since I don't own one...

I do have a clue what they intended. They told me. And my experiences matched to what they said.

""if the amp has high output impedance designed to have its own "sound", then the "sound" will vary all over with speaker impedances""

Perhaps. But certainly there are many factors that go into the sound of an overall amp: most notably the speaker type, the room, etc. (Output impedance is not the "only" factor that makes a Rogue amp sound much different a Halcro).  It is true that some amps do have high output impedance; so speaker selection is important.

But of course, none of that is relevant to the point, to the listeners/manufacturers unique interpretation of what constitutes great sound according to their design goals.

[Albrecht]

3 minutes ago, mansr said:

I don't need a blind test to tell me that my power amp works and is needed. If I connect the preamp directly to the speakers, I don't get any sound. I also know how an amp works. However, I have not examined the circuit diagrams for the specific model I use. I trust Marantz did reasonable job designing it, and I don't detect any obvious flaws. In other words, I know what the amp is supposed to do and why, and I can easily verify that mine does more or less what it should.

 

When someone comes along trying to sell me some widget that's supposed to make things "better" in unspecified ways through unspecified means, forgive me if respond with scepticism.

""When someone comes along trying to sell me some widget that's supposed to make things "better" in unspecified ways through unspecified means, forgive me if respond with scepticism."'

 

Well, -  that's never ever happened before. So, - we're all good!

[Albrecht]

13 minutes ago, crenca said:

 

Well yes, manufactures have an agenda (sell more stuff, make more money, etc.) and consumers have an agenda (get more and better stuff for less money, etc.).  My point in this multi-faceted and grand debate about what is audiophile and what is not, what sounds better and what does not, measurements and "objective" SQ vs. artisan SQ and the "subjective" - in the midst of all this it is the manufactures who (generally) have the high ground vs the consumers because of the reasons I cited.  They play both sides of the coin better the consumer, on average.  So we get to sound like a bunch of back biting personal internet trolls (on average) and the manufactures, propted up by the "audiophile press", occupy the more reasonable, dispassionate high ground.  This is simply the optics...

I agree with you on many things, but I read in your post a rather negative viewpoint of manufacturers. In my experiences traveling the halls & rooms at CES, - I have a different viewpoint. Most manufacturers that i have encountered face to face believe that they have insight into a "great sounding" component that enhances the listening experience and want to share it. Many of these designers have great sound and great listening experiences as their goal with making money as secondary. Mostly, - these people are not getting rich, - and often, - not their main source of income. Especially in these tough times & the death of the middle class, parts costs are skyrocketing, while disposable income is diminishing. Many designer/manufacturers have gone out of business.

[Albrecht]

2 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

You mean as in 'guessing'?

 

 

[Albrecht]

1 minute ago, crenca said:

 

  So the optics of the debate is always going to put threads like this on the wrong side of the tracks - it is always "a war" and about unicorns, etc.

 

 

 

I hear you. Thanks for explaining.

In a way, - these are kind of like "tweaks" where it's both tough to quantify when listening; and tough to measure. OTOH, I find that what they are doing is mitigating issues with the USB bus. In that the USB bus (and output too) is designed for many functions, (mice, hard drives, etc). That USB bus is not designed for audio alone, - and certainly not high performance audio. If one doesn't have a high performance audio system, one isn't going to buy a $500 set of spring-loaded, super bouncy, earthquake proof, feets to put under their CD player/DAC either.

 

Somebody will call a DAC that doesn't have an USB bus mitigation factors built in to the DAC itself a poorly designed DAC. But a DAC manufacturer will likely not be able to encounter several factors/issues with different computers/file players. Yes, - all the details aren't there. But (from where I sit) there are quite reasonable deductions and affects produced throughout a broad range of DACs in the areas of Signal Integrity, Galvanic Isolation, & clean power. At least a couple of these have presented themselves in traditional CD playback.

But I guess by writing such I am weighing in on one side of the debate.

 

Bottom line, (and I'm not trying to be holier-than-though), but I don't advocate going in and stomping all over someone's 2004 Dell Optiplex desktop running iTunes with a $196 Sony CD player & amp & DDC & telling them the Iso-Regen is the greatest thing ever in audio. It simply isn't going to make a difference there. But please don't come out and beat the crap out of me when it's obvious that it works great in my totally different system.

I have $13,000 (retail) speakers, but I'm also realizing some significant benefits from running a cheap-assed $200 DDC. There are pictures all over the Internets of the Glavanic Isolation circuitry, - it's been measured, - it's been verified by listening.

 

Cheers,

 

[Albrecht]

1 minute ago, mansr said:

This assumes a priori that there is in fact a problem with the USB connection.

 

Thanks for your questions.....

And thanks for replying to my post.

I tried hard to not call this a "problem" The USB bus is designed for many different types of devices. It's designed for two way communications between cameras, mice, keyboards, hard drives, and host of other devices & peripherals. In a way, - it performs (similarly to) pre-emptive multi-tasking. It is NOT designed for one purpose. It is not designed to output a consistent, clean, noise free, audio signal. (My apologies, I am not as good at explaining SI & the issues as John Swenson, & several others, here and elsewhere). So no, it is not an apriori assumption: under comparative analysis, regenerating the USB signal that is produced by 1 of the ports on the bus, *can* affect the signal & produce a cleaner signal that *some* components may take advantage of.

 

"Why must something designed for audio...."

It is good for what it is, - which is many things. The demands for both audio & video are higher than mice. Both Video & audio would IMPROVE if the USB bus was "re-configured" for a more singularly specific purpose.

 

 

[Albrecht]

18 minutes ago, Sal1950 said:

To believe there aren't business models based on snake-oil products and profit making, is to stick your head in the sand and believe in Santa Claus.

I never said anything to the contrary. And I read no small amount of hyperbole & assumptions in that statement. There is no need to cite specific specific events. Two points.....

1. When events & products that are at best "ineffective" or "fraudulent" come out, - they are called out, dismissed, and/or denegrated pretty quickly. Because, - there are so many naysaying trumpeters out there, sitting on a fence, waiting to pounce like vultures.

2. The high-end audio industry is a TON better than the criminal capital consumerist market out there. Gucci handbags, the latest internet enabled juicer, and on and on.

[Albrecht]

Just now, mansr said:

You state, correctly, that USB serves multiple purposes, and from this you conclude, without any supporting evidence, that it therefore must be bad for audio. This is the very definition of an a priori assumption.

Nope....

I just cited supporting evidence. You may speculate that the evidence i cited wasn't "good enough for you"

But "good enough for you" does not mean "not-evidence" That evidence + other evidence has been great for all the people who have been enjoying the affects of the device, - and the countless similar devices out there.

 

Plus... see below   ...   (You can criticize this EVIDENCE, but it does not make it not evidence).

 

 

[Albrecht]

8 minutes ago, rb2013 said:

But to your point - and you know a bit of my 30yr history with audio...is that sometimes the cost of a piece of gear is nowhere near the SQ it can produce.  

Cheers Mate!

Cheers RB! Thanks...     Yeah... it's great when a cheaply priced component comes around that blows away the high priced ones!! Sure, - price isn't necessarily related to performance.

[Albrecht]

2 minutes ago, mansr said:

 Now regarding those eye patterns, first of all they are meaningless without also showing the keep-out regions.

Hi,

No, they are not meaningless, - perhaps they would be MORE MEANINGFUL with the "keep-out" regions. But it's a straight up comparison that I trust that Alex did not "doctor." Taken with the preponderance of all the other evidence, - i don't see anything that would cause me to disagree much with the 95% on this one: especially for a product that is so cheap, and has a MBG. This level of trust is increased by the other products produced. The person that manufacturers my amplifier makes a whole line of products that all sound great for what they are, in the context through which they are intended. I feel great about calling him up on the phone and asking questions. Can't do that with a Sony.

[Albrecht]

1 hour ago, mansr said:

Kind of like medieval medical practices. USB gizmos are the audio equivalent of leeches.

I read this statement and analogy as being quite extreme. It belies some sort of specific wrong that has been done to you by either Alex, or high end audio designers. I would be speculating if I made assumptions on why you (appear to me) to be so hostile. USB "clean-up" or "improvement" devices don't even originate from the high-end audio industry. The Intona & other GI devices weren't originally designed for audio signals. USB extenders, converting the USB signal to TCI/IP and regenerating it, have been around for years.

 

 I know that the subject of the OP was the isoRegen, - but you are implying "all" high end audio. 

 

Did you ever ask yourself why elements of these "USB Gizmos" (even non-audio, computing industry devices, are built into both DACs and Digital File Player/computers? Inside the Ayre and Exasound DACs, inside the Aurilic Aries, SoTM SMS 200 & the microRendu. In the SU-8, the F-1, DIYinc, DDC's?

 

Sarcasm aside, (& likely more than you intend), the practice of medicine is even more of an "art" and even less certain. Experiential based testing through documented hypothesis, gathering of evidence & observation is a fundamental tenet of the scientific method. (And I would add, a multitude of different kinds of evidence yields better results).

Of course, - I should take some of Chris' excellent advice and shut up. As I'll speculate that my posts have convinced you of nothing. I'll quit responding to your posts, but I do hope that you take a close and honest look at the forthcoming tests and data, as well perhaps take a listen to some of these devices and compare your experiences with others.

Cheers,

 

[Albrecht]

1 minute ago, Daudio said:

 

Are you aware of the wonder of the 'Ignore User'

 

Hi, Thank you. Yes, - I do know of that button. Cheers,